BvS David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

[DA_Champion]

Dude my suggestions seem to have completely upset you but all I am doing is floating a possible theory for the absence of Lara in the rest of the film, as we all are doing in this thread which is meant to discuss why certain script writing choices might have been made.

I will desist from making suggestions as it clearly upset you.

slumcat,

I think that your suggestion is a legitimate possibility for what happened, but it's not necessary to explain Lara's exclusion, and even if it is the actual reason, it's not a good one.

It's just stupid and mean-spirited. Certainly one of the first things Clark would wonder upon meeting his biological father is "where's my mom?" and I don't recall the movie touching upon this. It makes Jor-El look like a complete *******, and there's a reason it's one of the most common modes of criticism of the film that you find in reviews.

The solution would be to either have had a couple throwaway lines (with emotional acknowledgment) explaining why she's not there (which can be done even if Russel Crowe is such a huge star), having Lara present, or better yet, not having Jor-El be the greatest hero and most developed character in a film about Superman. There was no need for Jor-El to come back as a ghost, save Clark twice, and inform Clark that it is his destiny to lead Earth into the light, which contradicts the movie's ostensible theme about free will.

 

[DA_Champion]

I think Blue's retort covers this(as doubled handed as it is). It's like he said, passion, love conviction..etc. Two grown men fight and it often times comes down to who wants it more and any number of other circumstances. I do recall Jor was fighting not just for his life but that of his son and also kryptons future, I've seen lesser men do greater with far less on the line. That's point one: The younger jedi beating the upper classmen paridigm regardless of the empirical

Do you actually think you could beat up George St-Pierre in a fight, or outplay Lebron James in a basketball game, or outwit Gary Kasparov in a chess game if you had a lot of emotion and some love and some anger?

No, sorry, no. Even if your life was on the line, even if you've been practicing for years and you were in the best shape of your life, LeBron James would own you on the court, easily.

And this is in spite of the fact that you have much more going for yourself than Jor-El. You might have spent a lot of time dabbling in fighting, basketball, chess, or whatever equivalent you wish to choose. That's because you live in a society with some degree of choice. You're not the product of countless generations of genetic optimisation, and then an upbringing of rigid environmental optimisation, to fulfill one specific role as Jor-El. You might actually legitimately be good at multiple, completely distinct things.

Audiences are willing to tolerate and even embrace Tony Stark / Iron Man who is a "genius billionaire playboy philanthropist superhero" because that's his ridiculous shtick. It's the defining feature of the character. Having Jor-El be both one of Krypton's leading scientist, as well as enough of a soldier to beat its greatest warrior, in a sterile world without freedom, simply doesn't work.

As for your little scenario,

You are incapable of presenting your arguments without condescension.

 

[DA_Champion]

A few more elaborations.

- Jor-El saves Lois and Clark on the ship;
- Jor-El saves the Earth by telling Lois to tell Superman to use Superman's cradle, his baby ship, as a weapon... oh my what incredibly imagery;
- Pretty much everything to do with Jor-El;
Jor-El is undeniably the greatest hero in Man of Steel. He saves Clark three times: by building the phantom drive, by helping him and Lois get off Zod's ship, and by telling Lois to use Clark's cradle as a weapon.

From the perspective of Earth, humanity got a raw deal. They got Kal-El from Krypton, but they would be a lot better off to have gotten Jor-El. Jor-El is a brilliant scientist, an unstoppable warrior, and has astute political judgment. He is the full package.

Kal-El had a very hard time defeating the Kryptonians, and he only succeeded because Jor-El told him what to do... Jor-El would have probably succeeded earlier, he could have hit the Kryptonian ship the moment it showed up in orbit. Later on, Kal-El had a very hard time defeating Zod in a fight... as Zod pointed out, Kal-El didn't learn much fighting "on a faaaarrm !!!!!!". Jor-El on the other hand did however have the combat skills to defeat somebody bred and raised to be the perfect solider. If Jor-El had been the one fighting Zod... well we know what would happen, easy win for Jor-El. Fewer deaths, fewer fans complaining that half of Metropolis was destroyed, as it would not have been destroyed. Whereas Kal-El could barely best a Zod who wanted to die, Jor-El dispatched a Zod who had all the motivation in the world.

This is an objective criticism: Jor-El shouldn't be the greatest hero in a film that seeks to establish Kal-El as the hero.

- The Lois and Clark relationships skips the prologue and skips Chapter 1;
- The military first names Superman rather than Lois;
This is more of a subjective criticism, clearly. It matters if you consider the Clark-Lois relationship one of the most important parts of the character... if you see Superman primarily as an action/scifi hero, then it's not as big a deal to you. However, I'll note that Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman was watched by nearly 20 million viewers at its peak. It was a pop culture phenomenon and Superman has not been that popular since.

I think the only time in the movie we see them flirt is when they are in the interrogation room -- how romantic. It was a nice scene though:
Clark: On my world it means hope
Lois: Well on this world, it's an S
The fact it shows up in highlight clips means that some people understood that it was a nice scene. I also don't get why they don't let her finish her sentence and cut off the camera when she comes up with the name Superman.

Again, and I realise the following point is subjective as a lot of people hate romance stories which is their right, but I would have preferred some relaxed moments between Lois and Clark over some secenes involving Jor-El or the giant metal squid. For example, when Clark met Lois at the cemetery and he told her about his father's suicide and the heavy burden of his powers, they could have gone for a "date" after, he could have shown her his home town, had some random, lighthearted banter. If the date had ended at IHOP it wouldn't have cost Warner Brothers any production money. They just needed Goyer to write the lines.

As it is, everything between Lois and Clark was serious and dire the entire time. They met when she was in danger in the arctic. She tracked him down and met him at the cemetery where they discussed the death of his father. Their first kiss was when they were surrounded by death and destruction in every direction... even the nice scene I mentioned was in a military interrogation room. Geez, relax. We don't see them have much fun, so it's a bit weird that they end the movie at the stage where you're starting to date someone you're really attracted to. It's almost as though David Goyer was more focused on establishing the relationship and meeting some benchmarks than having fun writing it out. Just put some fun scenes in, and doesn't need to be explicitly related to the "serious" narrative you're not pulling off.

It may be that the creative minds at DC and WB don't realise that this one of the most popular parts of the Superman character. DC Comics has actually made her a background character in the New 52 though they are now bringing her back. I'll note that one of the most popular novels of the last century, Twilight, is basically nothing more than a lobotomized adaptation of the Lois and Clark romance. If that can make 700 million at the box office, imagine the potential for the real thing.

PS Here's an expert who agrees with me:
http://www.digitalspy.com.au/movies...lois-and-superman-in-man-of-steel-sequel.html
Teri Hatcher: 'I want more Lois and Superman in Man of Steel sequel'

 

[Marvin]

Do you actually think you could beat up George St-Pierre in a fight, or outplay Lebron James in a basketball game, or outwit Gary Kasparov in a chess game if you had a lot of emotion and some love and some anger?

Depends how crafty I was. One thing about GSP and Lebron you need consider is that they are capable of making mistakes. I've got a pretty slick armbar and a decent jump shot too. If we were talking about odds(vegas odds even) you'd be right, if we are talking about the entire realm of possibility(if I battled them 6 million different times)...

If you had GSP fight 3000 average guys in one on one street frights. How much are you willing to bet he's not going to win every single one of those fights? Curious, what you think my chances of beating Lebron in a game of twenty one are?

And this is in spite of the fact that you have much more going for yourself than Jor-El. You might have spent a lot of time dabbling in fighting, basketball, chess, or whatever equivalent you wish to choose. That's because you live in a society with some degree of choice. You're not the product of countless generations of genetic optimisation, and then an upbringing of rigid environmental optimisation, to fulfill one specific role as Jor-El. You might actually legitimately be good at multiple, completely distinct things

Jor El's seems to have more than "dabbled". He seemingly also seems to have an ancestral armor and stocked armory. If you stop telling us what the story is and actually draw conclusions from what is fact presented..You might find yourself less at odds with the scenario. At what point in the story was it made explicit that JorEl wasn't a capable fighter? I can tell you what point it was made clear he was.

You are incapable of presenting your arguments without condescension.

It's a gift.

 

[Tempest]

A few more elaborations.

- Jor-El saves Lois and Clark on the ship;
- Jor-El saves the Earth by telling Lois to tell Superman to use Superman's cradle, his baby ship, as a weapon... oh my what incredibly imagery;
- Pretty much everything to do with Jor-El;
Jor-El is undeniably the greatest hero in Man of Steel. He saves Clark three times: by building the phantom drive, by helping him and Lois get off Zod's ship, and by telling Lois to use Clark's cradle as a weapon.

From the perspective of Earth, humanity got a raw deal. They got Kal-El from Krypton, but they would be a lot better off to have gotten Jor-El. Jor-El is a brilliant scientist, an unstoppable warrior, and has astute political judgment. He is the full package.

I'm sorry, who was the one who let his planet blow up, sent his son into space by himself, and who got stabbed to death by his former best friend?

Kal-El had a very hard time defeating the Kryptonians, and he only succeeded because Jor-El told him what to do... Jor-El would have probably succeeded earlier, he could have hit the Kryptonian ship the moment it showed up in orbit. Later on, Kal-El had a very hard time defeating Zod in a fight... as Zod pointed out, Kal-El didn't learn much fighting "on a faaaarrm !!!!!!". Jor-El on the other hand did however have the combat skills to defeat somebody bred and raised to be the perfect solider. If Jor-El had been the one fighting Zod... well we know what would happen, easy win for Jor-El. Fewer deaths, fewer fans complaining that half of Metropolis was destroyed, as it would not have been destroyed. Whereas Kal-El could barely best a Zod who wanted to die, Jor-El dispatched a Zod who had all the motivation in the world.

I don't know why fans complained about Metroplis. Coast City was destroyed in the comics, along with seven million fictional lives. This is not unprecedented territory.

Also, as I pointed out, Jor-El didn't exactly win against Zod. He was driven by a desire to protect his child, but in the end, the person who came out on top was Zod.

And then there was the whole Krypton blows up thing that Jor-El managed to be completely ineffective in stopping. He didn't bother to evacuate anyone else from the planet. He didn't even save himself or his wife. Basically, he did what Zod wanted to do, only on a grander scale.

So really, Jor-El was just kind of an *******, but we rooted for him 'cause he's Superman's dad.

Finally, since you clearly know nothing about writing, the purpose of writing a hero story is not to make things easy and fun. A hero faces challenges that are almost impossible to defeat, and have to struggle, and even sometimes fall back in defeat before they are victorious. Why? Because the journey is more important than the end game.

This is an objective criticism: Jor-El shouldn't be the greatest hero in a film that seeks to establish Kal-El as the hero.

Pfffft, no it's not. You hate the film, and you will pick it apart piece by piece looking for any error to defend your reasoning. Nothing that you write could be viewed as remotely objective.

- The Lois and Clark relationships skips the prologue and skips Chapter 1;
- The military first names Superman rather than Lois;

This is more of a subjective criticism, clearly. It matters if you consider the Clark-Lois relationship one of the most important parts of the character... if you see Superman primarily as an action/scifi hero, then it's not as big a deal to you. However, I'll note that Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman was watched by nearly 20 million viewers at its peak. It was a pop culture phenomenon and Superman has not been that popular since.

I love both aspects of Superman, and I loved their relationship in this film. Clearly, the tweens who saw this film did too, as it nearly beat Twilight out for the hottest on-screen kiss.

And the Clois relationship has gotten a great deal of praise from people for starting out on the right foot, without the lies. Making Lois an equal partner in the relationship has made a lot of women happy.

Again, and I realise the following point is subjective as a lot of people hate romance stories which is their right, but I would have preferred some relaxed moments between Lois and Clark over some secenes involving Jor-El or the giant metal squid. For example, when Clark met Lois at the cemetery and he told her about his father's suicide and the heavy burden of his powers, they could have gone for a "date" after, he could have shown her his home town, had some random, lighthearted banter. If the date had ended at IHOP it wouldn't have cost Warner Brothers any production money. They just needed Goyer to write the lines.

I don't think they were at the point of going on a date at that point. And how do you know that he didn't originally write that, or suggest something along those lines, and he was told that it wasn't necessary? Were you privy to the development process?

We don't see them have much fun, so it's a bit weird that they end the movie at the stage where you're starting to date someone you're really attracted to. It's almost as though David Goyer was more focused on establishing the relationship and meeting some benchmarks than having fun writing it out. Just put some fun scenes in, and doesn't need to be explicitly related to the "serious" narrative you're not pulling off.

There are tons of movies out there where the people start out hating each other, and by the end of a danger-filled movie, they're in love. Lois and Clark start out as friends, so why is it so hard to believe that the danger they faced drew them closer together?

And lookie what you said; Goyer was "more focused on establishing the relationship". Yes. Yes he did establish it, and he did a nice job with it too. I appreciate this Lois Lane so much more than many of her previous characterizations, simply because he picked the best parts of Lois, combined them, and had Superman respect her on top of all that as well. I couldn't ask for anything better from their relationship.

It may be that the creative minds at DC and WB don't realise that this one of the most popular parts of the Superman character. DC Comics has actually made her a background character in the New 52 though they are now bringing her back. I'll note that one of the most popular novels of the last century, Twilight, is basically nothing more than a lobotomized adaptation of the Lois and Clark romance. If that can make 700 million at the box office, imagine the potential for the real thing.

I think what you don't understand is that the Lois/Clark relationship is also one of the more annoying aspects of Superman. There's only so many times you can watch Lois not connect the dots (which makes me think she's stupid), or watch Superman trick her (because he's a Superdouche) before the whole thing gets too irritating to read.

Now we've skipped over that part, and we can get into Lois and Clark fighting over bylines while in a relationship, having philosophical or political differences, or have arguments over whether A1 is a delightful enhancement to dinner, or an insult to good beef.

Who knows? All I know is that I'm interested to see what comes next for them, and I'm fully relieved that I don't have to watch the writers come up with clunky plots just to keep Superman's secret a secret from Lois.

 

[TheBat812]

Quote:
This is an objective criticism: Jor-El shouldn't be the greatest hero in a film that seeks to establish Kal-El as the hero.

That is far and away from being an objective criticism. Beyond the obvious bias, this is the story of superman beginning. Seeing the heroics of his father would be a great thing to aspire to. He can still be a hero without being the 'best of all time.' That's simply a ridiculous assertion.

 

[super-t]

But with that explanation, why was it impossible for Jor and Lara to go to Earth with Kal? If they could just choose to be different it doesn't matter that they are a product of Krypton, they would be open to learn from the humans. In fact Jor said that Kal should guide them so some influence is fine, and it's there anyway since Jor-El's image is there to teach Kal.

Because no matter how far or how much they choose to separate themselves from Krypton, they will always have that subtle mindset. They will find themselves doing little things from Krypton only because its habbit for them, it was the way of life. Of course they would have adopted Earth's way of life but they would have never been able to truly let Krypton go. The only way Kal would have been truly free is if he was alone.

 

[Mjölnir]

If you had a child that was saved by say, a mutant(in this case) you'd probably be inclined to have a positive spin as well. Some people however wouldn't. Some people might be scared of the larger picture and what it might mean. If I found out tmr that my best friend was destined to be the second coming of christ....there is a chance I could be anxious about it and what it means. Some people can be scared by these things.

The way she speaks I definitely think it sounds like something positive. I'd also say that if I was afraid of the situation I wouldn't bring my kid to the confrontation.

No, you are told clark is on the swing set during the conversation. Infact by the time jon takes a look I bet it's still swinging due to clark having just recently heard enough. Just cause the camera goes inside the house doesn't mean clark is no longer a part of the scene. This is equivalent to the camera going inside the car.

Why would he just look inside for a second instead of watching how the situation unfolds, if he isn't intervening right away? Seems kind of weird if his dad is stuck.

It's a lose lose until you accept my rhetoric

I can't really do that. Either we have Clark looking into the car, seeing that his dad is stuck with a deadly storm almost upon him, and then goes "he's OK".

Or we have Clark see the car crash down, just assumes his dad is OK and tells his mom that instead of going to help.

Both are bad actions in my view and I can't rationalize either.

He, like Jon, thinks there is still a chance. And clark is ok with taking chances given the stakes. Ask yourself, when was it Jon realized there was no hope? Probably not when he was still kicking himself free. However when did Jon realize there was no hope?
Clark is of the same mind at this point imo.

Someone that's rescuing someone else isn't waiting until it's too late. Helping is kind of dependent on doing so while there's still time. Taking a gamble on your father's life is playing with really high stakes.

When dealing with two super speed people, general practice is that it equalizes itself out. Ergo people can get the drop on each other, if say they are fighting in the woods and one looses track of the other.

But it's not just super speed, it's super senses as well. If someone goes through a skyscraper to get to you you'll hear it, especially with super hearing. I'm more tolerant to such inconsistency with powers in an action scene though, since it's just brief moments. It's worse in the sneaking scene and I just brought this up to give a different kind of example when it's plot driven.

We can assume that unlike Jon kent, Clark always had exposing himself to the crowd on the table as a viable option correct? Evidence being:
-It took jon stopping him from doing so in the end.
-and the beginning of scene argument

If you look at the events of the scene though that pretense, it's pretty clear that clark had a worst scenario plan the entire time and he truly thought jon was in ok shape the entire time, thus his telling martha that dads ok/we're ok actually makes twice as much sense than the context I already have it in. Ergo the vision being used to keep track of his fathers progress.

When the time came that he actually had to step in arose, he was met with an unpredictable obstacle. A fathers dying wish.

Other than pointing out that Clark does not have to run super fast if he decides to help when the car crashes down I don't see anything here that's different enough to warrant me stating things again, so I refer to my two options above to try to make these posts a bit smaller.

I'll throw in this just for fun:

If you had GSP fight 3000 average guys in one on one street frights. How much are you willing to bet he's not going to win every single one of those fights? Curious, what you think my chances of beating Lebron in a game of twenty one are?

No average person will beat GSP. I've competed at a pretty high level in martial arts (striking and grappling, but retired from competition before MMA became a real option), sparred with a world champion boxer and world championship medalists in other martial arts, and trained under a grand master. The average person has no idea how good the best fighters on the planet are. You don't have to put up average people as opponents either. We had a MMA Featherweight (145 lbs), who's only won 1 fight since 2007, absolutely annihilate a former NFL linebacker in a street fight a couple of years ago, when there was a fight because the linebacker had hit a woman. It was a brutal, one-sided beatdown.

And even if we'd include that GSP might slip on a banana peel and hit his head, that's not really the kind of odds you put in a movie without really explaining it. In this movie there was no doubt that Jor-El was just flat out better than Zod though. The choreography included no flukes, just a fair fight.

Without knowing who you are I'd give you 0 chance against Lebron and GSP.

 

[Mjölnir]

Because no matter how far or how much they choose to separate themselves from Krypton, they will always have that subtle mindset. They will find themselves doing little things from Krypton only because its habbit for them, it was the way of life. Of course they would have adopted Earth's way of life but they would have never been able to truly let Krypton go. The only way Kal would have been truly free is if he was alone.

I just find that to be way too weak of a motivation to leave your son and to let you and, more importantly, your wife die. Jor and Lara clearly broke against the most fundamental parts of Krypton which they thought were the problem, so most of the work was already done. Jor-El also clearly does not want Kal-El to just be human as he actually tells him to lead us, and he has his computer image of himself to tell Kal what to do (he's the very reason we get Superman) so that's Kryptonian influence.

So I just think that when you have these huge special circumstances I think it's weak to just dilute it down to "well, we have our habits so we might as well die".

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Without knowing who you are I'd give you 0 chance against Lebron and GSP.

You don't know this, but Marvin is actually Dwayne Wade.

 

[Marvin]

The way she speaks I definitely think it sounds like something positive. I'd also say that if I was afraid of the situation I wouldn't bring my kid to the confrontation.

Well now we are just getting more and more into how you would do and are reading things and less and less away from objectivity. Especially when again, this is about how jon's characterization is demonstrated to.

Why would he just look inside for a second instead of watching how the situation unfolds, if he isn't intervening right away? Seems kind of weird if his dad is stuck.

He looks in to know when he has to step in.

I can't really do that. Either we have Clark looking into the car, seeing that his dad is stuck with a deadly storm almost upon him, and then goes "he's OK".

"...he still has a fighting chance and if worse comes to worse I'll use my powers, he'll understand".

But it's not just super speed, it's super senses as well. If someone goes through a skyscraper to get to you you'll hear it, especially with super hearing. I'm more tolerant to such inconsistency with powers in an action scene though, since it's just brief moments. It's worse in the sneaking scene and I just brought this up to give a different kind of example when it's plot driven.

If someone has to punch through the air to hit your face your super speed senses will detect it, ergo no more fist fights. You are picking and choosing here. It's superspeed, if something happens you should probably derive the logic of that something after the fact, not before.

Other than pointing out that Clark does not have to run super fast if he decides to help when the car crashes down I don't see anything here that's different enough to warrant me stating things again, so I refer to my two options above to try to make these posts a bit smaller.

That ignores the entire reason jon wanted clark away from the car in the first place. Like you yourself said: People are already suspicious of clark, him being involved in another near death rescue, one where he has to make sure not to accidentally expose himself with raging debris and he carrying his full grown dad away when he doesn't have to is just as big a gamble with the large crowd.

Why would he decide to help when the car crashes if he thinks his dads has a fighting chance? And no my scenario changes everything, you asked why on earth would he tell his mom that dads ok when his dad "is in a marcel wallace" situation? I answered: Because he always planed to use his powers as a last resort and that he's still alive and well.

 

[Marvin]

You don't know this, but Marvin is actually Dwayne Wade.

vince carter

 

[Marvin]

I'll throw in this just for fun:

No average person will beat GSP. I've competed at a pretty high level in martial arts (striking and grappling, but retired from competition before MMA became a real option), sparred with a world champion boxer and world championship medalists in other martial arts, and trained under a grand master. The average person has no idea how good the best fighters on the planet are. You don't have to put up average people as opponents either. We had a MMA Featherweight (145 lbs), who's only won 1 fight since 2007, absolutely annihilate a former NFL linebacker in a street fight a couple of years ago, when there was a fight because the linebacker had hit a woman. It was a brutal, one-sided beatdown.

And this featherweight could he go on to beat every single instance of linebacker in NFL history? No one every landing a clean shot to the soft spot behind his ear? Using their body weight to their advantage, get their hands around his neck and apply the rather minimal pressure it takes to rupture things....channel their impressive athleticism charge and get lucky....etc.

That's all well and good but fighting isn't sprinting, Usain bolt can run a certain speed and all things being equal(he doesn't trip) he can beat anyone that can't run at this same speed. Fighting is no such thing. You grab a gi you miss, you go to duck or perry but fall short the punch that knocks you out is the one you don't see coming(see the last middle weight champ). I have a high respect for fighters but a higher respect for fighting. but t

Also, there are a good amount of average people on the street that can throw a decent if not excellent punch. I'm not going to assume that in one million and one instances GSP is going to soundly beat every single one of these opponents. Such a thing would take the type of discipline movies have people visit sholin temples and stand on one foot for a month to achieve. Given how many times the man has proven own ability to make mistakes in the ring(random example being his belt loss or his failed arm bar)...this isn't about freak accidents, it's about understanding that no one is perfect and beyond mistake, especially the current walter weight champion. Fighting is not the same as sprinting, it's a variable laden communication and different every time. He's simply not going to be perfect in 1billion fights.

And even if we'd include that GSP might slip on a banana peel and hit his head, that's not really the kind of odds you put in a movie without really explaining it.

What about the odds that GSP is surprised to encounter another keenly skilled fighter? The mma comparison is very different form the film discussion however and I only indulged cause of how wrong it was. Tangential.

In this movie there was no doubt that Jor-El was just flat out better than Zod though. The choreography included no flukes, just a fair fight.

This is why I question your perception of this film. You have this way of extrapolating into absolutes. But I digress, a portion of the fight was Zod trying to disarm the man the other half was zod fighting with an injury and they clearly weren't trying to kill each other...

I'm curious, is there any chance you are questioning why farm raised Clark could over come Zod in a fair fight?

 

[FlawlessVictory]

vince carter

Touche

 

[Mjölnir]

Well now we are just getting more and more into how you would do and are reading things and less and less away from objectivity. Especially when again, this is about how jon's characterization is demonstrated to.

It's just how I phrased it to not have my posts be too repetitive. The point is that it's not very rational for a woman to take her child, especially one she nearly lost, to a confrontation with something she fears.

It's about the script being very poor in showing what it says. We're told she's afraid, she shows no signs of fear.

He looks in to know when he has to step in.

He can't know when to step in if he only looks in for one second (and all he sees is his father being stuck). Your argument was that he used his power when the camera isn't on him, which directly means that he only looked in once and then stopped. Makes no sense.

"...he still has a fighting chance and if worse comes to worse I'll use my powers, he'll understand".

That's a really cold-blooded gamble with his father's life. Especially for a farm boy. And if he's calm enough to think about the power thing he should realize that he could just run there normally, drag his father out and get back. Not exposing himself and be completely sure his father survives. Double win.

That ignores the entire reason jon wanted clark away from the car in the first place. Like you yourself said: People are already suspicious of clark, him being involved in another near death rescue, one where he has to make sure not to accidentally expose himself with raging debris and he carrying his full grown dad away when he doesn't have to is just as big a gamble with the large crowd.

Why would he decide to help when the car crashes if he thinks his dads has a fighting chance? And no my scenario changes everything, you asked why on earth would he tell his mom that dads ok when his dad "is in a marcel wallace" situation? I answered: Because he always planed to use his powers as a last resort and that he's still alive and well.

As no one would know that Jon was stuck in a way that likely required super strength to get out of (before the car blew away again) nothing would require something special there. Have you seen how jacked Cavill is? Not surprising at all that he could carry his father back quickly. And Clark's a farmer for crying out loud. He'd have carried plenty of heavy things.

And carrying his full crown dad when he doesn't have to!? I think it's time we stop these discussions as you clearly do not share my view of helping people and not gambling with their lives. Hopefully I'll have someone different-minded with me if I get into mortal danger.

And this featherweight could he go on to beat every single instance of linebacker in NFL history? No one every landing a clean shot to the soft spot behind his ear? Using their body weight to their advantage, get their hands around his neck and apply the rather minimal pressure it takes to rupture things....channel their impressive athleticism charge and get lucky....etc.

That's all well and good but fighting isn't sprinting, Usain bolt can run a certain speed and all things being equal(he doesn't trip) he can beat anyone that can't run at this same speed. Fighting is no such thing. You grab a gi you miss, you go to duck or perry but fall short the punch that knocks you out is the one you don't see coming(see the last middle weight champ). I have a high respect for fighters but a higher respect for fighting. but t

Also, there are a good amount of average people on the street that can throw a decent if not excellent punch. I'm not going to assume that in one million and one instances GSP is going to soundly beat every single one of these opponents. Such a thing would take the type of discipline movies have people visit sholin temples and stand on one foot for a month to achieve. Given how many times the man has proven own ability to make mistakes in the ring(random example being his belt loss or his failed arm bar)...this isn't about freak accidents, it's about understanding that no one is perfect and beyond mistake, especially the current walter weight champion. Fighting is not the same as sprinting, it's a variable laden communication and different every time. He's simply not going to be perfect in 1billion fights.

You draw very strange conclusions. I gave you an example of how far real skill can go. Size and strength means a lot in fighting but that little man destroyed a huge guy that's coming from a sport with great, roided up athletes. It clearly wasn't an argument of something that happens 100% of the time.

I already told you how the fight in MoS had no flukes involved whatsoever, it was choreographed to have one superior fighter beat the other. I maintain that the average person won't beat GSP by something as common as something that happens 1 in 3000, but even if it did such flukes are irrelevant when discussing the Jor vs Zod fight.

LOL, just stop it. The average person does not throw an excellent punch. You clearly have no standards. There are plenty of fighters in the UFC that don't throw excellent punches. Comparing average people to guys that fight themselves to title fights in the biggest organization in MMA is even funnier.

What about the odds that GSP is surprised to encounter another keenly skilled fighter? The mma comparison is very different form the film discussion however and I only indulged cause of how wrong it was. Tangential.

How is that relevant to what happens when one of the best fighters on the planet fights an average guy? And no offence but someone that thinks average people throw excellent punches saying I'm wrong when it comes to fighting isn't something I'll take to heart.

This is why I question your perception of this film. You have this way of extrapolating into absolutes. But I digress, a portion of the fight was Zod trying to disarm the man the other half was zod fighting with an injury and they clearly weren't trying to kill each other...

I'm curious, is there any chance you are question why farm raised Clark could over come Zod in a fair fight?

It doesn't matter what Zod tries to do, he's outskilled by Jor.

The most likely answer to that is that Zod wants to die because everything he was created for is gone, so he has no purpose in life. I'm subscribing to the idea that Krypton's genetic manipulation actually matters.

 

[Marvin]

It's just how I phrased it to not have my posts be too repetitive. The point is that it's not very rational for a woman to take her child, especially one she nearly lost, to a confrontation with something she fears.

It's about the script being very poor in showing what it says. We're told she's afraid, she shows no signs of fear.

The logic in bringing pete lies in that her son is the only witness. There is something to be said for bringing the boy to corroborate the accusation.
And no, this is about the script presenting something that could very clearly be seen as fear and a character later stating that's what they took away from it. Whilst you simply stating you weren't convinced of the fear in her presentation with the specific information you were provided. Ignoring how much information in scripts can come from second hand information.

He can't know when to step in if he only looks in for one second (and all he sees is his father being stuck). Your argument was that he used his power when the camera isn't on him, which directly means that he only looked in once and then stopped. Makes no sense.

That's a really cold-blooded gamble with his father's life. Especially for a farm boy. And if he's calm enough to think about the power thing he should realize that he could just run there normally, drag his father out and get back. Not exposing himself and be completely sure his father survives. Double win.

I actually said that he never takes his eyes off of his father, whether the camera is on him or not.
Also, it's only cold-blooded if you consider that jon doesn't approve of the risk. Its only "wrong" if you ignore the stakes the characters clearly expressed are their motivation for acting with extreme caution. (see barn scene)

As no one would know that Jon was stuck in a way that likely required super strength to get out of (before the car blew away again) nothing would require something special there. Have you seen how jacked Cavill is? Not surprising at all that he could carry his father back quickly. And Clark's a farmer for crying out loud. He'd have carried plenty of heavy things.

Wasn't talking about the super strength act of freeing his father. Was talking about the potential to expose his super powers during the entire ordeal.(see why jon told him to hang back in the first place).

And carrying his full crown dad when he doesn't have to!? I think it's time we stop these discussions as you clearly do not share my view of helping people and not gambling with their lives. Hopefully I'll have someone different-minded with me if I get into mortal danger.

I'll gamble with as many lives as I need to if I am fully under the impression that mankind and all my friends kids hang in the balance. Especially if the life I'm gambling is fully endorsing of such a gamble and infact has berated me several times on the matter.

You draw very strange conclusions. I gave you an example of how far real skill can go. Size and strength means a lot in fighting but that little man destroyed a huge guy that's coming from a sport with great, roided up athletes. It clearly wasn't an argument of something that happens 100% of the time.

Thanks for the example, however my argument was never once in question of skill over size. My stance was on the likely hood that fights can go either way and in fact won't go the same way 100% of the time. Ergo my response to your example. Skill is great but it's not absolute.

LOL, just stop it. The average person does not throw an excellent punch. You clearly have no standards. There are plenty of fighters in the UFC that don't throw excellent punches. Comparing average people to guys that fight themselves to title fights in the biggest organization in MMA is even funnier.

How is that relevant to what happens when one of the best fighters on the planet fights an average guy? And no offence but someone that thinks average people throw excellent punches saying I'm wrong when it comes to fighting isn't something I'll take to heart.

It's relevant in the discussion about the movie, which is why I clearly said this MMA discussion is pointless.

Moreover, I never said "The average person throws an excellent punch"
What I actually said was
"there are a good amount of average people on the street that can throw a decent if not excellent punch."
If you don't believe this, than I would assume you also believe there is no such thing as an average person that can throw a perfect spiral or swing a 9iron with decent to excellent form just randomly walking on the street in this moment. If you honestly believe that, than perhaps we should stop.

It doesn't matter what Zod tries to do, he's outskilled by Jor.

The most likely answer to that is that Zod wants to die because everything he was created for is gone, so he has no purpose in life. I'm subscribing to the idea that Krypton's genetic manipulation actually matters.

You said "there was no doubt that Jor-El was just flat out better than Zod though"
That's what you said. If you stand by it then, let's discuss. Do you stand by it?

And no, everything zod is fighting for in that moment is in fact "not gone"
*edit I thought you were talking about how jor el beat zod.

 

[TheBat812]

It's also important to note that zod is a soldier and general. Not the best mma fighter on krypton. Of course he has hand to hand combat skills but he's by no means automatically unbeatable. for all we know hes way better at tactical warfare and shooting than hand to hand.

 

[DA_Champion]

Marvin, zod was committing suicide by cop in the fight against clark, thatbis how clark beat him. If you did not get that, then yiu did not understand the movie as alll

On the other hand, you said you could beat LeBron in a basketball game ...maybe you're 14 years old ...

 

[Mjölnir]

The logic in bringing pete lies in that her son is the only witness. There is something to be said for bringing the boy to corroborate the accusation.
And no, this is about the script presenting something that could very clearly be seen as fear and a character later stating that's what they took away from it. Whilst you simply stating you weren't convinced of the fear in her presentation with the specific information you were provided. Ignoring how much information in scripts can come from second hand information.

No he isn't. She mentions two other children, who didn't have to be there. It's not a trial, you don't need to bring witnesses.

No, it's hard to read fear out of her talking about something positive. God stepping down and saving her son? Yeah, who'd want that?

I actually said that he never takes his eyes off of his father, whether the camera is on him or not.
Also, it's only cold-blooded if you consider that jon doesn't approve of the risk. Its only "wrong" if you ignore the stakes the characters clearly expressed are their motivation for acting with extreme caution. (see barn scene)

You also keep saying that it's a normal reaction to think your father is OK when he's stuck and about to die in seconds if he doesn't get out. I don't think we'll come further on this.

Wasn't talking about the super strength act of freeing his father. Was talking about the potential to expose his super powers during the entire ordeal.(see why jon told him to hang back in the first place).

Which isn't an issue if he doesn't use them.

I'll gamble with as many lives as I need to if I am fully under the impression that mankind and all my friends kids hang in the balance. Especially if the life I'm gambling is fully endorsing of such a gamble and infact has berated me several times on the matter.

You're awfully stuck on that he would have to use his superpowers, which is not at all given. A normal person would have had time to run to that car while he was stuck, if he was inclined to save the person inside. If Jon was fine, and could get out himself then the worst thing is that you've run towards the car for nothing and can turn back again.

Thanks for the example, however my argument was never once in question of skill over size. My stance was on the likely hood that fights can go either way and in fact won't go the same way 100% of the time. Ergo my response to your example. Skill is great but it's not absolute.

My example is one where one guy had skill and the other had all the other advantages (very significant as well, as he's a lot bigger). Skill is the biggest factor in a fight.

Sure, nothing says that Zod is the best hand to hand fighter but it's weird that he looks clearly less skilled than the best scientist in a world where you're locked into one function in society. If Zod wasn't a very good fighter he should be smart enough to not get into a brawl.

It's relevant in the discussion about the movie, which is why I clearly said this MMA discussion is pointless.

Moreover, I never said "The average person throws an excellent punch"
What I actually said was
"there are a good amount of average people on the street that can throw a decent if not excellent punch."
If you don't believe this, than I would assume you also believe there is no such thing as an average person that can throw a perfect spiral or swing a 9iron with decent to excellent form just randomly walking on the street in this moment. If you honestly believe that, than perhaps we should stop.

Yes, you said it again. "Average people". Throwing an excellent punch takes both talent and years of practice. If you do that you're not average.

And Jor doesn't just manage to hit Zod with a good punch, he completely dominates him with skill. He blocks almost every strike Zod throws and just beats the crap out of him with strikes of his own which Zod can't defend against.

You said "there was no doubt that Jor-El was just flat out better than Zod though"
That's what you said. If you stand by it then, let's discuss. Do you stand by it?

And no, everything zod is fighting for in that moment is in fact "not gone"

Yes, as I show above. The fight was clearly scripted to have Jor outclass Zod.

Zod fought for the future of Krypton. All chances for that were gone. He said he was going to kill Superman and the humans but that's not his purpose so I see it as that he tried to force Superman to kill him. If that wasn't the case then Zod would have been the likely winner of the fight (if we disregard him being smacked around by scientists and just look at what he's supposed to be).

 

[Krumm]

Marvin, zod was committing suicide by cop in the fight against clark, thatbis how clark beat him. If you did not get that, then yiu did not understand the movie as alll

On the other hand, you said you could beat LeBron in a basketball game ...maybe you're 14 years old ...

I would only say that is true in the final scene of the fight. He wanted to kill all humans and the only way to do that was to beat Clark so he had to try at some point.

Side note, I find it interesting that a lot of the conversations about the film include calling Superman "Clark." I think they succeeded in humanizing him.

 

[Marvin]

Marvin, zod was committing suicide by cop in the fight against clark, thatbis how clark beat him. If you did not get that, then yiu did not understand the movie as alll

I asked how Clark the "farm boy" could overcome Zod the "genetically perfect military fighter"
I seem to recall Zod saying something about wanting to kill both Clark and everything on earth, and I assume he said this in spite of his "suicidal tendencies". I mean, did he mean any of those threats? Did he have any intention to destroy earth and superman?

So the question is how did Clark overcome that? In this discussion about skill and punching technique, what whatever clark has to offer should be no match to zods awesome training, no? Damn you goyer

On the other hand, you said you could beat LeBron in a basketball game ...maybe you're 14 years old ...

Condescension? From the guy that accused me of it on this very page? Not bad.

Jokes aside. If you take the time to read my response to you, What I actually said 'was that it's not impossible that I could ever beat him given an infinite amount of tries.'
It's more impossible that I could grow wings and fly tmr.

 

[Krumm]

I asked how Clark the "farm boy" could overcome Zod the "genetically perfect military fighter"
I seem to recall Zod saying something about wanting to kill both Clark and everything on earth, and I assume he said this in spite of his "suicidal tendencies". I mean, did he mean any of those threats? Did he have any intention to destroy earth and superman?

So the question is how did Clark overcome that? In this discussion about skill and punching technique, what whatever clark has to offer should be no match to zods awesome training, no? Damn you goyer


Condescension? For the guy that accused me of it on this very page? Not bad.

Jokes aside. If you take the time to read my response to you, What I actually said 'was that it's not impossible that I could never beat him given an infinite amount of tries.'
It's more impossible that I could grow wings and fly tmr.

Wasn't Clark more powerful because of his extended time in our Sun?

 

[DA_Champion]

Clark could only best the kryptonians earlier because they did not know how to use their powers, for example they were caught off guard when he heat visioned them.

Zod was learning to use his powers though, as symbolized by his use of heat vision. However, he wanted to die, and thus Clark could best him. Zod wanted to die, that is how clark could best him.

Those two parts of the movie are well scripted. Jor-el beating up zod with ease? Not so much.

 

[Marvin]

Wasn't Clark more powerful because of his extended time in our Sun?

Given how much longer clark was on earth and given how negligible the raw power differential was demonstrated to be, between him and his opponents(see smallville fight). It's safe to deduce that this concept was changed from the source material. If you simply look at how much faster 33 years of sun light would have made him as opposed to faora...etc.

Then of course there is the little issue of

Spoiler

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I dreamed I chatted with Zack Snyder, who said that Ben was writing over 50 percent of MOS2. It was a good dream