BvS David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

[TheBat812]

Clark could only best the kryptonians earlier because they did not know how to use their powers, for example they were caught off guard when he heat visioned them.

Zod was learning to use his powers though, as symbolized by his use of heat vision. However, he wanted to die, and thus Clark could best him. Zod wanted to die, that is how clark could best him.

Those two parts of the movie are well scripted. Jor-el beating up zod with ease? Not so much.

Once again: It's important to note that zod is a soldier and general. Not the best mma fighter on krypton. Of course he has hand to hand combat skills but he's by no means automatically unbeatable. for all we know hes way better at tactical warfare and shooting than hand to hand combat. For all we know, Jor-el studied hand to hand combat on his own and has a natural fighting ability. Given the evidence of what actually happens in the story, I'd say that's probably a better guess than what you're saying SHOULD have happened.

 

[DA_Champion]

Except the script tells us otherwise. Zod explicitly says that he had very significant combat training.

Zod: I was bred to be a warrior, Kal. Trained my entire life to master my senses.

***************

As for jor el training in his spare time... I am a scientist too. If I took five years of mma lessons, and trainsd four hours a day... GSP would still kick my ass 100% of the time. Jor el did not even have four hours a day, he had to invent, design, and build the phantom drive in that time. He had to lobby the government as well. There is also no reason for him to train as he lives in a world without choice.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

He definitely threw Superman down during the climax. But having Zod lose the fight with Jor-El was

He should have won, but Jor-El should have fought a good fight. This allows Zod AND Jor-El to BOTH be BA, rather than Zod being a loser and a cheater.

 

[Marvin]

No he isn't. She mentions two other children, who didn't have to be there. It's not a trial, you don't need to bring witnesses.

No, it's hard to read fear out of her talking about something positive. God stepping down and saving her son? Yeah, who'd want that?

How'd I know you'd bring up the others kids lol.
The point was there is a very simple logical pathway into her bringing the boy who told her this story to the parents of the boy accused of partaking in her boys eye witness accounts. I'm sure you are familiar with the "my son said your son did this to him in school today" scenario. The one where the mother brings the boy over to retell his story first hand? Which is why she brought her son, doesn't mean she's not at all scared. She's not visiting to sell the kents tomatoes. She's there to confront them on what her son just told her he saw.
What a different conversation the two of us would be having about this had this lady at any point smiled during this blessed confrontation.

Secondly you also keep touching on the "fact" that people's reception to "providence" is seemingly always met with nothing but grace, joy and simply not fear. Given the term actually means divine intervention in our world and people, the ones more inclined to believe in such things(such as small town folk) have a greater emotional response, I refuse to believe that this woman will automatically receive this information with joy and not fear on the simple premise that it's gods will on earth. For example: Does this guy seem happy or "anxious" about providence..[YT]bjaJxs12l44[/YT]Seeing something he assume divine and doesn't understand, reacting in a less than joyous manner...sometimes it happens.

It's not a matter of whether she'd want her son saved by god's will. It's whether or not she'd be afraid at the prospect of what Clark is. Something she clearly doesn't understand if she's defining it as some act of god tied to village mystery child. What pray tell does our Jon character think(and say) about what he thinks people feel about things they don't understand?
Again logical character cause and effect pathway achieved. Don't see how the scripting undermines itself at all.

You also keep saying that it's a normal reaction to think your father is OK when he's stuck and about to die in seconds if he doesn't get out. I don't think we'll come further on this.

Where did I say there is anything normal about this situation. This is where you keep getting it wrong. I clearly said clark let his mother know that his father was ok due to his insight and his ability to STILL save him if he has to...take two seconds to ask yourself what it martha was thinking in that moment the car crashed down and jon disappeared? And contrast that exact thing with jon's physical st.....yes maybe we have come to the end on this one.
I still don't understand how you can possibly assume clark isn't using his visual powers on his dads progress I mean a whole crowd of people fixated on if Jon Kent is going to make it and this guy

Spoiler

his son, in this exact moment is literally choosing not to use his sensory powers.... and you feel this way because the movie "didn't show" us him using them.

Which isn't an issue if he doesn't use them.

It's an issue if you don't know if you will have to. There is a tornado down just down the road. This isn't a kent farm family dinner situation. Powers might accidentally be exposed.

You're awfully stuck on that he would have to use his superpowers, which is not at all given. A normal person would have had time to run to that car while he was stuck, if he was inclined to save the person inside. If Jon was fine, and could get out himself then the worst thing is that you've run towards the car for nothing and can turn back again.

Never said it was a give, I said it was a possibility and the specific reason Jon initially told him to stay back.
Like I said, hindsight is 20...

My example is one where one guy had skill and the other had all the other advantages (very significant as well, as he's a lot bigger). Skill is the biggest factor in a fight.

Nope.

Yes, you said it again. "Average people". Throwing an excellent punch takes both talent and years of practice. If you do that you're not average.

And Jor doesn't just manage to hit Zod with a good punch.....

Again, never correlated the mma discussion the the zod fight, that was you guys. My answer to the avg punch etc was about the mma discussion.

Throwing a decent or even excellent punch is very much in the realm of possibility to an average person walking down the street with zero fight training and it's not just a matter of luck either. As I originally said. This would be proven by my taking all the average people walking down the all the streets right now(let's just take half the worlds population for arguments sake) 4billion. Have them one by one, step in to a lab recording studio and have all 4 billion of these people attempt to throw their best punch. This experiment would of course continue until each of these 4 billion people either died or infact achieved said goal.
If you think none of these 4 billion "average" people would ever achieve the act of "throwing an excellent punch" by traditional definition....
In can tell you right now you'd be wrong. Again a discussion on impossibility and you are still talking in absolutes. But that's all beside the point.

Yes, as I show above. The fight was clearly scripted to have Jor outclass Zod.

In answering my question of if you stand by the statement "there was no doubt that Jor-El was just flat out better than Zod though". I firmly disagree.
I don't think Jor is or was flat out better at anything. Homefield and weapon advantage aside, Jor looked to have slightly edged out the victory that day. Unless you are also of without the same doubt that Jor was flat out better to such a degree that he would for certain handle zod 10 out of 10 times in a fair winner take all fight? That's what you are asserting from that less than a minute exchange. Kind of odd for a mma fight fan to draw anything from 1 minute battle between old friends with weapons, one of which having his baby in the room.

"flat out better"

Zod fought for the future of Krypton. All chances for that were gone. He said he was going to kill Superman and the humans but that's not his purpose so I see it as that he tried to force Superman to kill him. If that wasn't the case then Zod would have been the likely winner of the fight (if we disregard him being smacked around by scientists and just look at what he's supposed to be).

This asserts that zod wasn't at all trying to win and that his spoken threat was empty in all ways other than to motivate Clark. Learning to fly and all that fun stuff...
We'll have to disagree on this as well.

 

[Marvin]

Once again: It's important to note that zod is a soldier and general. Not the best mma fighter on krypton. Of course he has hand to hand combat skills but he's by no means automatically unbeatable. for all we know hes way better at tactical warfare and shooting than hand to hand combat. For all we know, Jor-el studied hand to hand combat on his own and has a natural fighting ability. Given the evidence of what actually happens in the story, I'd say that's probably a better guess than what you're saying SHOULD have happened.

This^
And This

Not sure how the script and direction could have been any more clear. Then again I suppose it could have come right out and said "Leaders of all houses, specifically the house of El, and even more specifically the leading scientific minds...have a no martial training whatsoever, even in these, times of constant war and political unrest as all societies that have not conquered death are prone to in some form or another...."

I suppose that might have been pretty clear.

 

[DA_Champion]

I would have liked to see Zod solve some math problems that jor el could not. It wouod have made sense. Maybe he skimmed a calculus book in his spare time. Mayhe the leaders of all houses got training in the arts and sciences.

Perhaps they could have shown Zod figure out how to finish construction of the phantom drive, have him figure out easily, where Jor-El had been stuck on the equations for months.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

This whole thread pretty much feels like this to me

 

[DA_Champion]

Marvin, Bat812,

I think nearly everybody who watched the movie understood that Jor-El was a renaissance man. He was a:

- brilliant scientist who could conceive, design/invent, and build a phantom drive. Let's take a moment to pause and think about: this alone arguably makes Jor-El a greater scientist and engineer than any human being who has ever lived.. it's a sufficiently impressive feat that the characterisation could stop there and we'd all be obligated to be impressed;
- He has enough spare time left over to dabble in geology, he is the one who informs the council that mining the core will blow up Krypton;
- A tactful politician, who had the ear of Krypton's ruling council. They turned him down, but he was turned down respectfully. His views were also well-known on Krypton as Zod knew exactly what happened when he saw Krypton blown up;
- A tremendous athlete. The way in which he stole the codex could be a fitness test for various programs, and 99% would fail;
- He's possibly the most eloquent character in the film, so he must read a lot of books in his spare time;
- An excellent fighter. He was somehow genetically optimised to be have both an athlete's body and a scientist's mind and psychology, and he had the tactical training to easily dispatch Zod, someone bred to be a soldier, who has been training his entire life;
- He is a political rebel in spite of his position of privilege and thus an incredible visionary. He breaks with Kryptonian tradition and has a child out-of-genesis-chamber. This is equivalent to someone like Bush's daughters going to jail for being at a demonstration.
- His political opposition is spectacularly well thought out. He has identified that Krypton is doomed sociologically/politically, and he identifies a specific problem: engineered breeding;
- He's a great motivational speaker. When Clark first meets his hologram, he decides to follow Jor-El's advice. Years of his adoptive father telling him to hide are brushed aside as Jor-El tells him, in no more than a few minutes, that he has to emerge to lead humanity into the light;

Jor-El is very much a man of all seasons, there is no ambiguity about this in Goyer's script, he has written Jor-El as the greatest hero and greatest individual of the story, he is like Tony Stark and Batman. To take real world examples, he is Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Karl Marx, LeBron James, George St-Pierre, and Rune Evensen all rolled into one. The script is already clear, it doesn't need to be made clearer.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Maybe Jor-El was a "fluke" of some kind? Or was predestined for greatness :P

 

[DA_Champion]

Maybe Jor-El was a "fluke" of some kind? Or was predestined for greatness :P

There shouldn't be flukes in a regimented and sterile like society like Krypton that has been using the same genetic material and environmental upbringing for thousands of years, a society which has stopped evolving.

Further, Man of Steel went for a realistic look. In the real world people are rarely good at everything, and never elite at everything. Only one person (Philip Noel-Baker) has ever won both an olympic medal and a nobel prize... the olympic medal was a silver medal obtained in 1920 when competition was less fierce than today, and the nobel prize was a peace prize (not physics, not chemistry, not biology) obtained in 1959. And that's among human beings, where people don't have genetic and environmental destinies determined from birth.
http://nobelprizewatch.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/when-a-nobel-prize-just-isnt-enough/

It simply did not make sense for Jor-El to easily beat up Zod, on multiple levels. It contradicts the world building, and as Mjolnr as has pointed out, it makes Zod look like a loser.

 

[TheBat812]

So you didn't like the take on Jorel. But it makes sense to me that Clark would be destined for greatness if he was the spawn of somebody so awesome, one of the few people to exhibit a desire for free will within a society that's foresaken it. We're talking about a man who becomes a God. A comic book/mythical story that's meant to be portrayed and feel like it really happened. I don't think you really understand how storytelling works and are confusing 'realism' with good storytelling. Totally within your right to not like the intrepretation, but it doesn't mean it doesn't work. The story is monumental but its depiction feels 'realistic.' It doesn't mean every single thing has to be the most realistic version of what happens. Otherwise Superman would never have existed at all.

Also, maybe Zod could be a brilliant scientist, but he obviously had no desire to explore any options outside was he believed was his only reason for living. Not to mention it's way easier to learn how fight than to learn how to become a genius....


And Flamingo that soccer gif had me on the floor, haha.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Snyder probably said "This page is missing something." Goyer:"Another fight?"
"You know how fans are always having these silly conversations..on which..superpowered people..can beat each other in a one-on-one?"
"But nobody has superpowers on Krypton..."
"So we'll have our only non-cgi fight scene in the movie. Awesome."
Snyder: "Now, let's show that Jor-El's a toughie."
Goyer: "Shannon shouldn't win against CROWE."
Snyder "Okay, so it shouldn't be a competition. Because Zod almost beating Jor-El.. is like him..beating Jor-El."
Goyer: "Done."

Chris Nolan (talking to himself, over and over): "I'm getting a paycheck for having my name on this."

Ben Affleck gets cast as Batman.
Nolan: "I'm out, but keep my name. I enjoy the free money."

 

[Marvin]

Marvin, Bat812,


- He's possibly the most eloquent character in the film, so he must read a lot of books in his spare time;

This one has to be my favorite.
classic.

By the way Jor simply modified the phantom/hyperdrive contraption, something Zod later replicated, not that any of that matters but I thought I'd clear that up(for later).

 

[DA_Champion]

So you didn't like the take on Jorel. But it makes sense to me that Clark would be destined for greatness if he was the spawn of somebody so awesome, one of the few people to exhibit a desire for free will within a society that's foresaken it. We're talking about a man who becomes a God. A comic book/mythical story that's meant to be portrayed and feel like it really happened. I don't think you really understand how storytelling works and are confusing 'realism' with good storytelling. Totally within your right to not like the intrepretation, but it doesn't mean it doesn't work. The story is monumental but its depiction feels 'realistic.' It doesn't mean every single thing has to be the most realistic version of what happens. Otherwise Superman would never have existed at all.

First of all, you should stop assuming that people who critique the movie don't understand storytelling or are less intelligent than you. It's an ad hominem attack and thus a logical fallacy, it's not an advantage as only a small fraction of this forum has seriously studied literature, and finally people who are experts on storytelling, who know more than all of us, have criticised this movie aggressively.

Superman needs to have good parents. The movie did not show us this. Jor-El was modelled on Tony Stark to be elite at everything, that's true, but we see precious little of Lara, Martha, and Jonathan: Jor-El has more screen time and better character development than all three of them combined. We see Kal-El's birth on Krypton and how Jor-El reacts, we never see the arrival of his ship on Earth and how Martha and Jonathan react: that is because Goyer considers the human parents less important.

You may dismiss this criticism as being due to my ignorance, but again, people far wiser than either of us in these matters have made this point.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ Exactly. Well, there was a 3+ cut out there. Perhaps the longer version will have more Ma/Pa Kent. I think Goyer was trying too hard to make a "different" Superman story, that he overlooked the obvious. But I also think Snyder was too preoccupied with building the world of Krypton that Earth didn't get the same treatment.

And before it seems like I let Nolan off the hook, please try to understand. I feel, that if Nolan had his way, there wouldn't BE a shared universe. There would be individual stories, that he'd try to make as serious and realistic as possible, that entire characters would have to be toned down, or not adapted at all.

I think he should influence the narrative structure, but not the tone/environment of DC.

If he goes, I won't panic, though I will want someone closer to the source material to stand in his place.

 

[DA_Champion]

By the way Jor simply modified the phantom/hyperdrive contraption

That's right, Jor-El modified the phantom zone technology to turn it into a hyperdrive, conceptually, and then he actually built it. That's a tremendous intellectual achievement, and within character for Jor-El, bred and raised to be a great scientist.

Aside from being good writing as it supports the character in his role, it's also good science fiction, as the link between black holes, warm holes, etc is well-rooted in actual physics. Christopher Nolan would have picked up a lot of knowledge about this due to his work on Interstellar, on which he is collaborating with Kip S. Thorne, arguably the world's top physicist on these issues. Thorne is the man who has literally written the book on gravity. Mind you, though black holes and warm holes are related, they're not the same. It takes some work to go from one to the other.

something Zod later replicated,

Zod didn't replicate anything, his team did. In the movie, he had the scientist Jax-Ur on his ship, on his team. He may have had other scientists. That explains why they were able to replicate the phantom drive, and to figure out what Jor-El did with the Codex.

The equivalent would be if Jor-El's bodyguard had beaten up Zod.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I guess the only thing to do is to wait for the DVD to hit and then write down a transcript. Or something :P

 

[Marvin]

First of all, you should stop assuming that people who critique the movie don't understand storytelling or are less intelligent than you. It's an ad hominem attack and thus a logical fallacy, it's not an advantage as only a small fraction of this forum has seriously studied literature, and finally people who are experts on storytelling, who know more than all of us, have criticised this movie aggressively.

Superman needs to have good parents. The movie did not show us this. Jor-El was modelled on Tony Stark to be elite at everything, that's true, but we see precious little of Lara, Martha, and Jonathan: Jor-El has more screen time and better character development than all three of them combined. We see Kal-El's birth on Krypton and how Jor-El reacts, we never see the arrival of his ship on Earth and how Martha and Jonathan react: that is because Goyer considers the human parents less important.

You may dismiss this criticism as being due to my ignorance, but again, people far wiser than either of us in these matters have made this point.

just gonna leave this here
only because we seem to be on the subject.

 

[Marvin]

^ Exactly. Well, there was a 3+ cut out there. Perhaps the longer version will have more Ma/Pa Kent. I think Goyer was trying too hard to make a "different" Superman story, that he overlooked the obvious. But I also think Snyder was too preoccupied with building the world of Krypton that Earth didn't get the same treatment.

Different from what exactly? Surely you aren't referring to the previous and property defining films in the series are you? Cause the Kents in that movie....

 

[DA_Champion]

^ Exactly. Well, there was a 3+ cut out there. Perhaps the longer version will have more Ma/Pa Kent. I think Goyer was trying too hard to make a "different" Superman story, that he overlooked the obvious. But I also think Snyder was too preoccupied with building the world of Krypton that Earth didn't get the same treatment.

And before it seems like I let Nolan off the hook, please try to understand. I feel, that if Nolan had his way, there wouldn't BE a shared universe. There would be individual stories, that he'd try to make as serious and realistic as possible, that entire characters would have to be toned down, or not adapted at all.

I think he should influence the narrative structure, but not the tone/environment of DC.

If he goes, I won't panic, though I will want someone closer to the source material to stand in his place.

It's been acknowledged that Snyder actually did cut a flashback, I'm not sure what it was about, but Ma/Pa Kent is very plausible. Snyder actually did have the authority to make changes to the script: he was able to add in the scene of Superman killing Zod. So, he shares some blame. If he can make 1 change he could probably make 2.

I'd love to see the 3+ hour cut of the film. It makes me hesitant to buy the blu-ray when it comes out, because a better version of the movie might come out later.

I'd be ok with every hero being in his own universe or there being a few simultaneous parallel universes, but that discussion is completely separate to this one

 

[DA_Champion]

just gonna leave this here
only because we seem to be on the subject.

I value the opinions of experts in every field from literature to climate change to civil engineering

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Different from what exactly? Surely you aren't referring to the previous and property defining films in the series are you? Cause the Kents in that movie....

No, just the more Earth-based nature of many comics. Though there are also a lot of space-age stuff too

But yeah, MOS was more "the saga of Krypton" then "Superman Begins."

For me. I'll have to rewatch it

 

[Marvin]

No, just the more Earth-based nature of many comics. Though there are also a lot of space-age stuff too

But yeah, MOS was more "the saga of Krypton" then "Superman Begins."

For me. I'll have to rewatch it

My bad, when you said Goyer wanted to do something "different" I thought you were referring to: within the given media he's working with and within a singular chapter format.

 

[Marvin]

That's right, Jor-El modified the phantom zone technology to turn it into a hyperdrive, conceptually, and then he actually built it. That's a tremendous intellectual achievement, and within character for Jor-El, bred and raised to be a great scientist.

Remember when Tony stark "built" the mark one in a cave with a "box of scraps"? Then do you recall when he got home, how he seemingly built the mark 2 (through 50) without ever picking up a single hammer again?

Kryptonian civilization has been established and advancing for possibly even longer than homo sapiens have been around. That would suggest their AI and computer systems kinda make raw engineering feats hard to technically measure when it comes to the scientist they are assisting. Newton didn't even have a calculator. If stark has Jarvis, who knows what the capabilities of Jor's AI can help him out with.
Just saying.

Zod didn't replicate anything, his team did. In the movie, he had the scientist Jax-Ur on his ship, on his team. He may have had other scientists. That explains why they were able to replicate the phantom drive, and to figure out what Jor-El did with the Codex.

The equivalent would be if Jor-El's bodyguard had beaten up Zod.

A basic assumption, with plenty of logical grounds behind it. I mean after all it's not like Zod was alone when he enacted this design.

You know the way Jor was alone
Just throwing some evidence and facts at you. Given you are so quick to conclusions.

 

[DA_Champion]

Remember when Tony stark "built" the mark one in a cave with a "box of scraps"? Then do you recall when he got home, how he seemingly built the mark 2 (through 50) without ever picking up a single hammer again?

That is one of my core criticisms of the Iron Man films. I'd be "ok" if Tony Stark had one fluke like building the Mark-I in a week, but he does something like this in every Iron Man movie. It's basically a superpower. As I joked elsewhere, if Darkseid were to attack the Justice League, the Justice League should open a portal to the Marvel-verse and get Tony Stark to help them out, as he could solve the anti-life equation and its reversal in half an hour.

The idea that "it's easy to be an expert" is a general problem with Hollywood films. I don't see it as much in films from Europe, Japan, etc. If your point is that that my criticism of Jor-El as a renaissance man applies to many, many Hollywood movies, then you are correct. However, though that component alone is frustrating, Goyer created a world where there explicitly shouldn't be renaissance men. There's also Mjolnr's point that it was a failed opportunity to make Zod more menacing.

Kryptonian civilization has been established and advancing for possibly even longer than homo sapiens have been around. That would suggest their AI and computer systems kinda make raw engineering feats hard to technically measure when it comes to the scientist they are assisting. Newton didn't even have a calculator. If stark has Jarvis, who knows what the capabilities of Jor's AI can help him out with.
Just saying.

I interpret Jor-El developing the phantom drive as an exemplary act of brilliance. I could elaborate, but it would be very long. I don't have a problem with this as he was bred and raised for that kind of brilliance.

A basic assumption, with plenty of logical grounds behind it. I mean after all it's not like Zod was alone when he enacted this design.

I'm pretty sure Zod said "we" when he talked about replicating the phantom drive. We also saw him defer to Jax-Ur's scientific judgment when discussing the codex.