DC's Definitive Joker origin

[BubbaGump]

That part completely skipped my mind. I haven't seen B89 for a few months now.

 

[Agentsands77]

Am I the only one who liked his nails painted green?

You know, dead cells in his body got dyed from the chemicals (nails, hair, etc.). I know they're not going for realism, but I thought it was a nice touch.

I liked it, too. But it's not the first time. He had green fingernails in ARKHAM ASYLUM.

its suppose to be ridiculous. he's the joker. ridiculous is what he does!

Perhaps so, but I was expecting for a more chilling initial moment. As I said, I think if the Joker was only laughing in that one panel, it would have been more effective. Or at least if "Bunny!" wasn't the only word in the bubble, ala

JOKER: HAHAHAHAH! BUNNY! HA! HAHAHAHAH!

Which is clearly what was going on, anyway, given the sea of HAs behind him.

 

[Nepenthes]

I always enjoy a sea of HAs

 

[The Shredder]

Just picture the scene where he meancingly reaches his hand out of the chemicals...the nails are green.

I'd post a pic from the DVD, but I have no idea how that all works...

Yeah, theres that. And also the scene where he's disturbed putting on flesh colored makeup before Alicia interrupts him before his "date" with Vicki Vale.

 

[Mladen]

issue 10 delivered what i wanted to see: more Jack in physical action, more of an insight into Jack's head (especially those lovely moments while he's floating around in the chemicals). less of Batman's feelings, and a transformation moment without a stupid red hood.

This issue of Cowan's art is easy the best of his Confidential run, and some of the splash-page or over-sized panels of Jack/Joker were just brilliant.

I don't get one of the main problems that people have with the Joker revamp... A lot of you have complained that taking away the tragic 'one bad day' scenario ruins the joker/batman dynamic... Have you ever even READ a Batman/Joker comic besides TKJ?
Just what Joker/Batman dynamic are you talking about? I can only think of half a dozen Joker/Batman comics where the Joker is painted at all sympathetically, in nearly every other he's just a motiveless maniac or an outright homicidal sociopath. The 'one bad day' scenario seriously only fits with about 1% of any of the Joker characterisations out there. He's an entirely unsympathic character... At least in Confidential it feels like they've given Charles Manson the keys to the gun cabinet.

 

[Joker]

The great thing about the Joker is he's in a constant state of change...we dont know his origin for sure (this one is still just another possible way, as seen by the Countdown origin, which is the actual in continuity origin of the characters now), his personality changes from day to day (crazy genius commiting robberies to do things like spell out his own name, or robbing clown and comedy things to beating a teenager to death with a crowbar or shooting a young woman in the spin)...so whatever version you preffer is always the right one, and is bound to pop up again sooner or later.

 

[CrimsonMist]

speaking of The Killing Joke and Joker origins, i found this on DC's March solicits page:

http://dccomics.com/comics/?cm=8745

i'm getting this.

 

[DeathRaven]

I'm all cool with them making more Orgins, in fact I say bring more! I like the concept for this one but damn is the writting terrible for it.

Just from reading a few previews I cant get into any of the dialogue, its just.....blah.

But thats me, I'm not going to stop any one from liking it. Its quite different from the Killing Joke, I just wish a bit more was put into this one.

 

[Spider-Bat]

I just read issue #10, what an insult to the Joker. I do not even consider this as anything.

I'll take the Killing Joke. He was The Red Hood before the Joker, and the cops and Batman cornered him on the catwalk and he jumped to escape, this other crap is so stupid, the writing is horrible, you'd think for something like this they'd make it more special, so they don't seem to be making this such a big deal, I don't think it'll stay in continuity, for me it is not a part of anything, and the artwork was garbage, flat out crap!

Did a ******ed monkey draw it, that's what it looks like, I am not finishing this stupid crap.

If it was to be a major event they'd have done more for it with better art and writing, this is nothing. The whole thing felt like somechild did it, it didn't even feel like I had read anything. Just garbage.

 

[Joker]

I just read issue #10, what an insult to the Joker. I do not even consider this as anything.

I'll take the Killing Joke. He was The Red Hood before the Joker, and the cops and Batman cornered him on the catwalk and he jumped to escape, this other crap is so stupid, the writing is horrible, you'd think for something like this they'd make it more special, so they don't seem to be making this such a big deal, I don't think it'll stay in continuity, for me it is not a part of anything, and the artwork was garbage, flat out crap!

Did a ******ed monkey draw it, that's what it looks like, I am not finishing this stupid crap.

If it was to be a major event they'd have done more for it with better art and writing, this is nothing. The whole thing felt like somechild did it, it didn't even feel like I had read anything. Just garbage.

A. The Red Hood has always been just one of many origins. For years after he was created we didnt even know about the Red Hood, then that part was taken totally out of continuity until the Killing Joke, which isnt even in continuity with it's flashbacks anyway.

B. This was never in continuity, it was, as shown by the Joker origin in 52, just one of many possible origins, just like always.

C. If you dont like it, don't read it. No one cares if you don't like it. Seriously, the world does no revolve around your opinions, and b**ching about it like a little emo girl isnt going to change anything about it.

 

[Dirt Like Me]

I just read issue #10, what an insult to the Joker. I do not even consider this as anything.

I'll take the Killing Joke. He was The Red Hood before the Joker, and the cops and Batman cornered him on the catwalk and he jumped to escape, this other crap is so stupid, the writing is horrible, you'd think for something like this they'd make it more special, so they don't seem to be making this such a big deal, I don't think it'll stay in continuity, for me it is not a part of anything, and the artwork was garbage, flat out crap!

Did a ******ed monkey draw it, that's what it looks like, I am not finishing this stupid crap.

If it was to be a major event they'd have done more for it with better art and writing, this is nothing. The whole thing felt like somechild did it, it didn't even feel like I had read anything. Just garbage.

Have been reading the whole arc, or are you basing your opinon of it solely on Issue #10? Because if it's the latter, you've missed out on a lot of things. It'd be like giving analysis of a baseball game by watching the fifth inning.

As for the continuity argument: does it even matter? If a story is fun, I'm not got to let the fact that it might not be adopted by other writers get in the way of my enjoyment.

I'm sorry if I seem harsh, but I feel like the haters of this story all say the same things (Killing Joke is better, the art sucks, etc.) and approached the story with a closed mind. Nobody's making anybody read it, you know?

 

[Dirt Like Me]

And everything The Joker said, too.

 

[Mladen]

are a lot of the people who are *****ing about it actually reading it?
Deathraven said he only read a few lines in Previews (he at least admitted it and was polite about it), so I'd hazard a guess that a lot of people have made their mind up about it without even trying to read it themselves.

Either way, continuity shouldn't be a reason to hate this book (there are plenty of other valid reasons).

Sure its not perfect, but to me at least issue 10 seemed to be the only one which (to me) lived up to issue 7 (8 and 9 were both pretty dissapointing). Sure he's taking some shortcuts with the writing, (a dead love interest to push Batman over the edge just seems a bit tired or predictable, at least to me), but some parts really worked for me, particularly the few glimpses into whats actually going through Jack's head... but I like the little details, especially that bit with Batman changing his mind and running back to the factory to try and save Jack's life (nice character defining moment, I like Batman occasionally making a mistake and then attempting to rectify it, rather than being the perfect hero), or the way Jack lets 'tubby' live since he was the only one to suggest a quick death....

I do have to take issue with the artwork being 'garbage'. Sure, it doesn't look like every other superhero comic on the shelf... I would think that a strength rather than a weakness... Besides, Cowan's issue 10 is easily his best of his confidential stuff. Denys Cowan is a great artist with a lot of comicbook experience so its good to see him actually up to the form I expected from that first issue 7 cover... I'd agree a lot in 7,8,9 was just okay (not great but promising), but in 10 (for me at least) he's stuck a nice balance of sketchy and finished (maybe its through the coloring, I don't know), and there are some striking panels in issue 10... to me the sketchy-ness is finally beginning to suggest 'rough early batman career' instead of 'rushed timeline' or 'failed experiment'

 

[SuperestHero]

Whens #11 comin' out???

 

[Nepenthes]

Coming from an initial period of utter scorn and dismissal I can't believe how pleasantly surprised I am with this origin. It's easily one the better Joker stories ever written. I feel stupid for being so hostile. but that's just me

 

[Agentsands77]

"Lovers & Madmen" is flawed, but it's had some pretty marvelous moments. I'm definitely a fan, and don't see how it's deserving of any real venom.

It works better for me as an origin than any previous suggested origin tale, and brings some fascinating new angles to the Joker character (this Joker is really quite a physical threat to Batman).

 

[Joker]

"Lovers & Madmen" is flawed, but it's had some pretty marvelous moments. I'm definitely a fan, and don't see how it's deserving of any real venom.

It works better for me as an origin than any previous suggested origin tale, and brings some fascinating new angles to the Joker character (this Joker is really quite a physical threat to Batman).

Joker being a physical threat isnt new...in Batman #1 Batman actually says "finally, someone who can give me a fight!" after he gets done with his first scuffle with him. It wasnt till a while later that he was made a wuss.

 

[Agentsands77]

Joker being a physical threat isnt new...in Batman #1 Batman actually says "finally, someone who can give me a fight!" after he gets done with his first scuffle with him. It wasnt till a while later that he was made a wuss.

Sure. But not only has that aspect been absent for a very long time, this Joker's beyond what BATMAN #1 presented. This Joker's an unbelievable shot, and capable of doing some amazing physical maneuvers (like that chain moment in issue #10). It's interesting to see Joker taken in that direction.

 

[Agentsands77]

I just got #11.

The story takes some very interesting turns and Green's characterization for Joker is really, really interesting. And the Joker has one murderous event that is truly chilling.

Spoiler

I find it interesting that the Harleen Quinzel connection continues... In fact, she receives a rare instance of charity from the Joker.

And Green really is developing the Joker as the product of Batman's bad choices. A curse he unleashed on the world because of his rash mistakes. It's an interesting angle.

 

[Joker]

in 11, that circus thing was just crazy...that's one of my new all time favorite Joker moments...

 

[Agentsands77]

I liked the blimp event best. Quite a moment, really.

 

[Motown Marvel]

decent issue, but one of the weaker issues of the arc. i felt it was just sort of filler to lead up to the final showdown. i dont think joker's antics were given the proper full attention, but rather sorta glossed over, which lessened their impact to me.

 

[JTStarkiller]

I actually enjoyed this issue the most of the five. My favorite page was the one with Alfred convincing Bruce to go face the Joker.

 

[Mladen]

decent issue, but one of the weaker issues of the arc. i felt it was just sort of filler to lead up to the final showdown. i dont think joker's antics were given the proper full attention, but rather sorta glossed over, which lessened their impact to me.

yeah, this issue was for me the weakest as well.
definately felt like a lot of padding, and I actually found Jack more interesting than the Joker.

 

[Dirt Like Me]

decent issue, but one of the weaker issues of the arc. i felt it was just sort of filler to lead up to the final showdown. i dont think joker's antics were given the proper full attention, but rather sorta glossed over, which lessened their impact to me.

I can see why you'd think that. And I agree, to a point. But I think the real purpose of this issue was Alfred's speech--establishing the idea that Batman unleashed the Joker onto the world and was directly responsible for his existence. So, in that sense it was just padding for the next issue, but it still had some cool moments, like the circus scene...that was crazy: Very sick, and very Joker. It made the issue for me.

I also liked some of the dialogue, such as the Joker's assessment of his pre-transformation life: "Not a single bunny on the whole moon". (It cracked me up and I wasn't that high on the "bunny" thing to begin with).

This arc has been a really pleasant surprise. I had very, very low expectations because I hadn't heard of the team and the first Confidential story was so horrible. I'm really looking forward to seeing how it all turns out.