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DC's Illuminati

gildea said:
Well they've foreshadowed in the time alotted.

They're been in New avengers, hulk and their own mini.

they also apprently appeared together wayy back in the past.

That seems like enough for me.
I always get the sense that Marvel's foreshadowing is shoehorned in at the last minute. While I could actually see a progression that led to Infinite Crisis and, to a lesser extent, Identity Crisis over the course of more than a year in DC's comics, Marvel's tend to have one or two cryptic mentions thrown into a comic and then the event just plops right down into the middle of everything. I get the sense that DC's editing staff, or whoever controls their foresight and planning, is much more on top of their game than Marvel's. Maybe that's just me, though.
 
TheCorpulent1 said:
I always get the sense that Marvel's foreshadowing is shoehorned in at the last minute. While I could actually see a progression that led to Infinite Crisis and, to a lesser extent, Identity Crisis over the course of more than a year in DC's comics, Marvel's tend to have one or two cryptic mentions thrown into a comic and then the event just plops right down into the middle of everything. I get the sense that DC's editing staff, or whoever controls their foresight and planning, is much more on top of their game than Marvel's. Maybe that's just me, though.


for some things their foreshadowing has been better. Like the stuff built on from id. c and batmans d*ckery (though i think a lot is out of character I can't deny its there and they are at least trying to justify it?).

but other stuff such as jason todds resurrection have been just as shoehorned in (if not more so).

However i think DC has the benefit that Johns is better at working with continuity than practically any "name" writer at the moment so even if stuff was shoehorned in I doubt we'd notice.

having said that i'm not too bothered about foreshadowing stuff, as long as it makes logical sense otherwise stories would take forever (insert bendis decompressio joke here).
 
gildea said:
Well they've foreshadowed in the time alotted.

They're been in New avengers, hulk and their own mini.

they also apprently appeared together wayy back in the past.

That seems like enough for me.
Exactly, in the time alotted. Marvel has been so eager to follow in DC's wake, that I don't take time to plan anymore. They could have set this up quite a while ago, but didn't think of it then, and now they want to rush into a summer event.

They have as much time as they want to have.
 
I agree here. The editors at DC just SMOKE the editors at Marvel (or lack thereof) these days. Shoehorning is a beautiful word for what's going on over there.

The Jason Todd thing was a gift from DC to the people who LOVED his appearance in Hush (me included). It wasn't a spectacular retcon, but certainly better than things like spider-gods and Goblin sex.
 
Harlekin said:
Exactly, in the time alotted. Marvel has been so eager to follow in DC's wake, that I don't take time to plan anymore. They could have set this up quite a while ago, but didn't think of it then, and now they want to rush into a summer event.

They have as much time as they want to have.


I dunno i don't really think that the story has been hurt with this lack of time spent on establishing the illuminati (i kinda think they should be mysterious anyway). I mean how often in the past has marvel followed one 3 year plus story? I don't think marvel have spent too little time on planning it per se (heck dc's planning of IC from a non story perspective has been dodgy at times).

If i may ask how much foreshadowing does an event actually need to work?
 
Doc Destruction said:
The Jason Todd thing was a gift from DC to the people who LOVED his appearance in Hush (me included). It wasn't a spectacular retcon, but certainly better than things like spider-gods and Goblin sex.


Doc there are wars, famines, plagues and other assorted stuff that are better than spider-gods and goblin sex.
 
gildea said:
I dunno i don't really think that the story has been hurt with this lack of time spent on establishing the illuminati (i kinda think they should be mysterious anyway). I mean how often in the past has marvel followed one 3 year plus story? I don't think marvel have spent too little time on planning it per se (heck dc's planning of IC from a non story perspective has been dodgy at times).

If i may ask how much foreshadowing does an event actually need to work?
I was mostly responding to the thought that Marvel did all the foreshadowing in the time they had, while in fact, they make the rules with how much time they have for foreshadowing.

Each type of story and mystery requires a different level of foreshadowing. I'd have given the Illuminati at least a year before fully revealing their full scope. I do kind of like the approach they took, since you get the bang immediately for the buck, but it shoots out any long-term investment in the mysterious Illuminati plot IMO.
 
Harlekin said:
I was mostly responding to the thought that Marvel did all the foreshadowing in the time they had, while in fact, they make the rules with how much time they have for foreshadowing.

Each type of story and mystery requires a different level of foreshadowing. I'd have given the Illuminati at least a year before fully revealing their full scope. I do kind of like the approach they took, since you get the bang immediately for the buck, but it shoots out any long-term investment in the mysterious Illuminati plot IMO.


Fair point.

It does kind of ruin any chance of exploring the illuminati concept if when you first meet them they are splitting up.
 
gildea said:
for some things their foreshadowing has been better. Like the stuff built on from id. c and batmans d*ckery (though i think a lot is out of character I can't deny its there and they are at least trying to justify it?).

but other stuff such as jason todds resurrection have been just as shoehorned in (if not more so).

However i think DC has the benefit that Johns is better at working with continuity than practically any "name" writer at the moment so even if stuff was shoehorned in I doubt we'd notice.

having said that i'm not too bothered about foreshadowing stuff, as long as it makes logical sense otherwise stories would take forever (insert bendis decompressio joke here).
I hated Jason Todd's resurrection almost as much as some of the stuff at Marvel. I'll cop to the fact that Marvel actually worked a much better dead sidekick resurrection with Bucky than DC did with Jason Todd. The sooner Jason's back in the ground, the happier I'll be; Bucky has actually got some potential to be an interesting character now that he has his memories back, though.

I also don't like the Superboy Prime punch explanation behind Infinite Crisis. That was a huge anti-climax for me. Someone told me about it when it was revealed in the Batman Annual about Jason's resurrection and I laughed in their face because I thought DC would never do something that stupid. Oh well.

I agree that Johns is better than most, but I think Morrison and DiDio have been equally important to the coordination of the DC universe lately. Two great, continuity-minded writers and a great editor. Marvel doesn't really have anyone who can compete with them in that respect.
 
gildea said:
Fair point.

It does kind of ruin any chance of exploring the illuminati concept if when you first meet them they are splitting up.
On the one hand I actually appreciate that. It's a plot device, and the idea behind it is enjoyable enough, but on the other hand it could really use some fleshing out.

I agree that Johns is better than most, but I think Morrison and DiDio have been equally important to the coordination of the DC universe lately. Two great, continuity-minded writers and a great editor. Marvel doesn't really have anyone who can compete with them in that respect.
And let's not forget Waid and Giffen.
 
I had Waid in there initially, but I took his name out because I couldn't really remember where he'd contributed a lot to coordination and foreshadowing. As far as I'm aware, Rucka's probably had a lot more impact on coordinating the current transformation of the DCU more than Waid. I still love Waid's writing, though--Legion's still managing to be good in spite of Supergirl's presence, which is quite a feat. ;)

Giffen's moonlighting over at Marvel--and probably coordinating more there, with Annihilation basically being his baby, as I understand it--so he doesn't count. :p
 
I also agree with those points. DC's IC seemed like it was planned from the start about a year ago and it shows. Marvel's House of M, Illuminati, and Civil War are Marvel's attempts to try and catch up...and they are failing(yes I know it's wrong to catagorize CW as a failure without reading it but the premise is wonky with me). What Marvel needs to do is stop releasing all these events and worry about next year....plant the seeds for some kick ass story that will actually shatter the internet in half.
 
TheCorpulent1 said:
I agree that Johns is better than most, but I think Morrison and DiDio have been equally important to the coordination of the DC universe lately. Two great, continuity-minded writers and a great editor. Marvel doesn't really have anyone who can compete with them in that respect.

Indeed johns is great at work with existing continuity. Morrison is an insane genius however particularly when referencing his own stuff, you see this a bit in his x-men run but in seven soldiers its amazing.
 
The sad part is, DC's really using marvel tactics to tell good stories.

The Connected universe and continuity, all that was established by Stan Lee and his marvel bullpen, where they would work together in the same building.
 
gildea said:
It does kind of ruin any chance of exploring the illuminati concept if when you first meet them they are splitting up.
I think Bendis mentioned that the Illuminati are going to be explored further down the road with flashbacks and stuff. But I basically agree; that whole issue was meant to explore the drama of the Illuminati breaking up, and yet we just met them, like, a minute ago.

I like the general concept of the Illuminati even if the execution didn't go quite as good as we'd hoped 'cause, like I said, the Marvel universe needs an Illuminati; hopefully we might get, like, New Illuminati or something after Civil War.
 
To be honest i'm hugely optimistic about civil war but when you think of it in this context of connected stories (whether you like the story or not) marvel really could have built on HOM more. The 198 thing i haven't read, dunno if it was any good or not but it seems to have been largely ignored. The point of house of M of getting mutants to a vastly reduced number seems to have just been stated then never built on. For instance the UN could now grab magneto and put him on trial properly. etc All the minis that related to it didn't get big name talent and much of a push once the civil war hype machine started.
 
BrianWilly said:
I think Bendis mentioned that the Illuminati are going to be explored further down the road with flashbacks and stuff. But I basically agree; that whole issue was meant to explore the drama of the Illuminati breaking up, and yet we just met them, like, a minute ago.

I like the general concept of the Illuminati even if the execution didn't go quite as good as we'd hoped 'cause, like I said, the Marvel universe needs an Illuminati; hopefully we might get, like, New Illuminati or something after Civil War.

I think bendis realised this, as instead of concentrating on the drama of the team itself breaking up he focused on t'challas refusal and tension between tony and namor.

I did really enjoy it mind you.
 
TheCorpulent1 said:
I hated Jason Todd's resurrection almost as much as some of the stuff at Marvel. I'll cop to the fact that Marvel actually worked a much better dead sidekick resurrection with Bucky than DC did with Jason Todd. The sooner Jason's back in the ground, the happier I'll be; Bucky has actually got some potential to be an interesting character now that he has his memories back, though.


I've got no problem wtih Jason Todd being alive, it's how it was handled that I have a problem with...I agree with most everyone's feelings on that. And I do agree with Bucky's resurrection was handled much better in a better story.
 
No More Mutants could have been built on immensely but it wasnt. It was another plot that was tossed aside as soon as the storyline was finished.
 
Lackey said:
I've got no problem wtih Jason Todd being alive, it's how it was handled that I have a problem with...I agree with most everyone's feelings on that. And I do agree with Bucky's resurrection was handled much better in a better story.
That's what I meant. I was just as opposed to--Is that Sarah Silverman in your avatar? Goddamnit, it's distracting! :(

Anyway, I was just as opposed to Bucky's resurrection as I was to Jason's, but Brubaker actually won me over with the story. Winick just made me laugh, then sigh in disappointment. Even with Infinite Crisis, although the event as a whole is still good, I'll always be disappointed by the fact that Superboy Prime's anger management issues were behind everything. And Jason Todd's resurrection doesn't even have that "although the thing itself is good" caveat working for it.
 
I would rather that DC continue setting the trend than copying what Marvel is doing
 
TheCorpulent1 said:
I was just as opposed to--Is that Sarah Silverman in your avatar? Goddamnit, it's distracting! :(



I had no idea so many people were fans of hers until I got the avatar.

She's the perfect woman :(
 
Lackey said:
I had no idea so many people were fans of hers until I got the avatar.

She's the perfect woman :(
Her hotness always surprised me. Comediennes and hotness just don't seem to mix normally. But I've always liked her stand-up routines, and I loved her in School of Rock. I remember her being in other movies, too, but I can't recall exactly what they were at the moment.
 
I think she was in Chasing Amy. I don't know. All those Kevin Smith movies tend to blend together for me.

Is it true she's dating Jimmy Kimmel? If it is I mean, wtf man!?!
 

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