Debate #1: Phoenix: What Works and What Doesn't?

[flavio_lebeau]

PHOENIX​

Welcome, fellow Hype Members. So, We have here our first debate. It's no surprise to anyone that one of the most polemic subjects regarding X-Men: The Last Stand, was the treatment of Phoenix. To many, it was treated poorly throughout the movie, while to others, the character did have an interesting role on the plot. So, this is the place to discuss:

- General Opinions on the "Mind Blocks" theory. Does it work within the plot of the movie and the story settled by its predecessors?

- The character development, as well as the continuity.

- What is missing on her?

- Does it make justice, at least partially, to the comic version?

- The Phoenix effects. Good enough, was the Firebird essential or not?

- The Phoenix outfit.

These are just some examples of topics regarding the character and her treatment. The most important is, as the title says, to vent what, in your opinion, works and what doesn't work on one of the most anticipated comic characters to ever hit the silver screen.

Have Fun, and Behave!

 

[javon]

The outfit and comics version.

1st off, I don't know what the costume was inspired by, but it could have look a million times better. It was wayy to simple and since it was that simple, they should have at least have her change at the end of the movie. A perfect time would have been IF she did a Phoenix bird, which didn't happen. Speaking of, it was very essential because thats her trademark in the comics but instead we get some ragidy toilet flush as an entrance and dark eyes....BORING...okay the eyes weren't boring but the other thing I mentioned was.

And whats with sticking to the comics? The duel personality thing? Nah, that was too corny and cheesy. What happened to the cosmo flying, omni powerful, entity we saw in the comics? The entire Phoenix concept was just horrible-it was comedy.

 

[gap5ewl]

Where oh where to begin...

-The mind blocks was completely a wtf moment for me. It is completely non-canon with what Singer set up in the previous two. Jean was supposed to have become the Phoenix because of the radiation from Magneto's machine in X1. I really don't understand why they did it this way. I think it might have something to do with Famke as she said in an interview that she was the one who told the writers to have Jean have the "multiple personality thing" as soon as she rised from the water. So I guess the writers went with it, knowing Famke would easily pull it off, and wrote in the mind blocks since it was another nod to the comics somewhat (in the comics, Xavier temporarily puts psychic bocks on Jean's mind so she can develop her powers better). It was sloppy though and just a complete plot hole for the franchise. Btw, I hated how Xavier says "oh well she developed a duel personality and the bad part is it is called the phoenix.."..........WTF?!?!? it just seems like they rushed it they should've sticked with the original concept.

-Character development was good with what they gave her. Jean had one of the better treatments in the franchise and Famke is a great actress so she did well with the what she was given. But as mentioned before, horrible continuity with the first two films when it comes ot the creation of the Phoenix.

- So whats missing on her??? ummm..the PHOENIX RAPTOR! Even more proof that this film was rushed. It was seen when she resurrected in front of Cylcops (btw what an underwhelming scene that was). I mean they had a really cool concept for it and ran out of money the last minute and gave her the zombie look (which looked cool) but completely out of continuity the phoenix fire was shown in X2. Also killing off Cyclops so Wolverine can have the relationship with her is well I think everyone knows by now lol.

-Does it make justice to the comics? Well...the whole multiple personality thing is similar to the phoenix possesing her but again, the way they explained it was weak and it would've been much more believable if they just sticked with Singer's concept. Plus why no Hellfire Club? I was really looking forward to seeing them and I would've loved to have seen Sigourney Weaver as Emma..sigh..

-Phoenix effect mentioned above.

-I liked the costume. I didn't like how it just randomly showed up on her. Someone pointed out that they way the costume was set up at the top near her cleavage, looked similar to the Phoenix logo in the comic book version since part of the red out fit was see through on the top and formed kind off a bird like creature with her skin showing.

-So in conclusion what worked was Famke's amazing acting skills in pulling off a rushed and weak version of the Phoenix Saga. What didn't work is putting it to the side so the cure plot could be the main focus, killing off Cylclops then Xavier so Wolverine could be the one to save Jean, and taking out the raptor and going with a version different from what Singer had intended.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

- General Opinions on the "Mind Blocks" theory. Does it work within the plot of the movie and the story settled by its predecessors?

In my opinion very much so, yes. I believe this was the best possible route to take with the explanation of Phoenix. In X-Men, Jean is rather weak. She shows a reaction to Magneto's machine, in which it is established through diaglogue that the machine has no effect on mutants, and that point is never contradicted at any point through that film or X2. We also see the fact that every single mutant in the movie was exposed at one point or another to the machine's radiation, so why weren't any of the others effected? X2 shows us a much more powerful Jean, and it is heavily implied through dialogue ("ever since Liberty Island, you've been different...") that the machine was the cause.

So why was Jean effected?

I don't buy the whole "it randomly triggered a secondary mutation in her". It's way too random. Way too plot convenient. Dues ex machina anyone? "It just happened, accept it". No, I don't accept it, I want to know why.

While X-Men: The Last Stand didn't -directly- tie mental blocks to Liberty Island, I am able to put 2 + 2 together to find the answer. It offers a reason to why Jean was effected by Magneto's machine, and why she became more powerful. It also offers a reason that is consistant with the source material.

I feel this was the best possible route to take with the explanation of Phoenix.

- The character development, as well as the continuity.

Well, I've always believed that with this being the 3rd film, we should know the characters well enough that character development no longer needs to be the focus.

With that said, the introduction of the Phoenix portion of Jean's character arc was essentially a new character unto itself. To me, there wasn't enough character development with Phoenix. Throughout 2 movies, Jean Grey has been someone we fell in love with. She was a good gy, noble, honorable, sweet, loving, compassionate. She dies, and we die with her. She rises, and all of a sudden, she's evil. There's one line of dialogue explaining why. I believe that there needed to be a true struggle between Jean and Phoenix. A couple of scenes nailed that struggle, in particular the infirmary scene between Jean and Wolverine. But other than that, the struggle was non-existant. It was Phoenix wrecking **** just cuz she could, and she was pissed off. Showing more of her internal struggle would have greatly aided the Phoenix arc.

- What is missing on her?

As I stated above, the internal struggle between human Jean, and primal, instinctual Phoenix.

- Does it make justice, at least partially, to the comic version?

Partially, yes. Mostly, no.

I won't explain why it doesn't, because we all know that. But to me, why it does:

The times that we DO see the internal struggle, what exactly is the cause? Cyclops, her love for him, and her unable to live with what she did to him. Jean wanted to die because of her love for Cyclops, just like the comics. It was her love for Cyclops that allowed her to overpower Phoenix and be stopped, just like the comics. That part of the comic version remained in tact, it just wasn't as blatant and in your face as maybe it should have been. But that element is there.

- The Phoenix effects. Good enough, was the Firebird essential or not?

For continuity purposes, I feel the firebird should have been there. Hell, the firebird is a comic icon. It'd be like Gambit without a trenchcoat, or Wolverine without claws.

With that said, as an alternate take on Phoenix, I -REALLY- liked the effects. I loved the possessed / demonic look that Phoenix had. The element of the firebird was there, at least, because everytime she went all Phoenix, there were flames and such around her that illuminated her like the Phoenix.

So the effects get a from me, even though it's not the Phoenix firebird we were all waiting for.

- The Phoenix outfit.

Doesn't bother me in the least.

That's my take, just on the specifics of what you listed. Obviously, as this thread goes on, more and more will be added to the discussion, and I'm sure I'll have more to say on the upcoming topics for discussion. But yes, that's my piece for the time being.

 

[gambitfire]

- General Opinions on the "Mind Blocks" theory. Does it work within the plot of the movie and the story settled by its predecessors?
I felt the Mind Block theory goes against everything the movie emphasized which was EVOLUTION. The character felt forced into the plot for the sake of the movie.

- The character development, as well as the continuity.

Well I felt the character lacked some serious developement. While we have known Jean for two movies now Phoenix is a whole new entity and we know nothing of her. She seemed to have no cause after she killed Xavier.

- What is missing on her?

Besides depth she needs some meaning. I could of accepted if she wanted to be free (which is what i assume was the reason in the movie), but she didn't really do anything much to make her self stand out as the all powerful individual she is.

- Does it make justice, at least partially, to the comic version?

IMO not even partially. The comic Phoenix was above teaming up with Magneto even if their cause were the same (if that was really her cause).
She would of known better and been stronger than to let Logan get that close to her and conveniently lose control the moment he's standing in front of her.

- The Phoenix effects. Good enough, was the Firebird essential or not?

I think the Firebird would of been very essential and work with the whole re-birth story, not to mention it would of been in par with what the previous movie gave us. The effects we got seemed like re-hash of what's been quoted to death = "Dark Willow".


- The Phoenix outfit.

It was ok, but it seemed pretty strange. I understand she isn't going to be running around in tights but where does she have the time to go find this giant red puffy weird looking outfit... WITH BOOTS!?!


___________

IMO what would of worked was keeping Phoenix as a good character who has trouble controlling her new found greater powers. She would of been an asset to the team. The final straw would of been a final attack by Sentinels causing her to snap into all out rage and give way to her evolution into Dark Phoenix.

As for her powers I for one would of been fine if the machine in X1 would of been the trigger for her evolution. Magneto isn't perfect he isn't a an all knowing genesisct. So i would of believed if his machine was flawed to the point of affecting a mutant. As for why Jean... well Why anyone? Why are these the ppl born with the mutant X-gene? They where chosen at random, just like the effect of the machine would of fallen on Jean. Also the fact that her power was underdeveloped could of been another factor in that reason.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

I'll sum it up with "her coming off as an indecisive moronic WHIMP". t:

No, it didn't do justice to *any* of her comic incarnations.

Oh, and I'm totally siding with those not liking the origins. t:

 

[BMM]

... cocoon.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Eh. Eh. t:

We all saw it coming and yet hoped for something better. t:

 

[javon]

^It's like they didn't even care for the project AT ALL. To be so poorly written and fast paced, that is.

 

[La_She-Beast]

Just in case, are we reading each other's opinions? That's part of the game, no?

 

[flavio_lebeau]

I read everyone's opinion so far. I must say I agree with most of what Nell posted.

IMO, the Mind blocks theory was a great way to continue the story of the last two movies. To me, it perfectly explains the scenes in X1 and X2. The machine created by Magneto could perfectly break her blocks, since it's electric radiation, and neuronal activity is electric. Actually, to me it makes more sense than having her cells mutating to an extent where she becomes the ultimate mutant. At most, she would get a cancer...

HOWEVER, the problem is on the explanation, and the time given to explain the mind blocks. As BMM perfectly reminded, "cocoon of telekinetic energy" screams LAME to her survival. After Xavier briefly explains it, everyone seems to forget about the problem, especially since according to the movie it is so old of a problem. What baffles me most is the complete despise that Storm shows towards her "sister". She never seems to truly care about Jean.

The continuity is severely hurt mostly by the lack of a firebird, which leads to the next topic. Her character development, imo, is extremely poor. As gambitfire said, yes, we know and Love Jean, but Phoenix is a new character. The movie should have the PHOENIX as the main plot, and the cure as a sub-plot. The family relationships are what make these movies appealing. Phoenix should have more moments of doubt. The scene in which she senses the scared little girl HAD to be on the movie. That is an example of the kind of scenes I wanted to see more. At least more 4 or 5 scenes of that kind. On the second half of the movie, she is completely forgotten, to only show up again on the final minutes. I also hate how she is always treated like the ultimate menace, yet sucumbs to Logan. That easily. I expected more.

The FIREBIRD also had to stay, as well as more flight scenes from Jean. Yes, the biggest geekasm of my life was wasted. I waited 3 years to piss myself when I saw the firebird in all its glory, but it didn't happen, and strangely, that's my main problem with the phoenix. The Lack of the firebird symbolizes everything that is wrong with the movie:

Lack of time, lack of care to the characters, lack of respect to the fans. I still haven't got over the fact that I will either never see the firebird on the screen or will have to wait years for a reboot and still depend on luck to see Phoenix again. That is unforgivable.

The effects are quite nice though. But I can't help but to be sad when I think of the production draws that show Phoenix destroying San Francisco, and not only a small Island. Oh well.

Her outfit: I love it. How did it appear? In an army of mutants led by Magneto, at least one of them must have the glorious powers of creating clothes. Phoenix herself could make up her clothes.


Uff, later more on the subject. I just have to say Phoenix was a huge let down, unfortunately. Until May 26th, I still had hopes of being quite happy with the character. I wasn't. As a side note, I must say that she is responsible for the best scene of the trilogy, imo: Phoenix killing Xavier still sends shivers down my spine. And for this I smile a little bit, even knowing of the lost potential.

 

[xmenfilesfan05]

I know this doesn't really answer most of the questions posted, but waiting for X3, I held out hope for Phoenix...THE Phoenix, to me it seems Phoenix without the raptor of flames is like having Spiderman bitten by a radioactive ladybug instead of spider...sure, they could've probably done a good job with the film, but it's so iconic, what's the purpose of doing it any other way?

 

[flavio_lebeau]

I know this doesn't really answer most of the questions posted, but waiting for X3, I held out hope for Phoenix...THE Phoenix, to me it seems Phoenix without the raptor of flames is like having Spiderman bitten by a radioactive ladybug instead of spider...sure, they could've probably done a good job with the film, but it's so iconic, what's the purpose of doing it any other way?

That's exactly how I feel...since the day I first watched X2, that was the thing I most wanted to see in X3.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

I thought the whole exeplenation by Professor X as for Phoenix`s "origin" was none at all.It would have been too much to put the Shi`Ar in,i could understand that.But i thought something more was done..than just mental blocks.

I commented in another thread that Phoenix`s portrayal was bad.It just looked like Jean was using more power than normal,not the all powerful Phoenix Force.The outfit could have been better also.

 

[gap5ewl]

I read everyone's opinion so far. I must say I agree with most of what Nell posted.

IMO, the Mind blocks theory was a great way to continue the story of the last two movies. To me, it perfectly explains the scenes in X1 and X2. The machine created by Magneto could perfectly break her blocks, since it's electric radiation, and neuronal activity is electric. Actually, to me it makes more sense than having her cells mutating to an extent where she becomes the ultimate mutant. At most, she would get a cancer...
.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. The "mind blocks" seemed to just be a cheap, quick and easy way to discuss the Phoenix in TLS. Having Jean go through the original evolution, that is rebrith jean, phoenix then dark phoenix as originally intended, would've required more focus on Jean's character and most likely more filming. Penn has said that Fox originally didn't want Jean back and just wanted the cure plot but Kinberg and Penn had to pull some teeth just to put her in. I think they tried to go the original direction but it probally didn't work at out all since she was a side-plot and it wouldn't make too much sense so the mind blocks would be better for what fox wanted. Also it is out of continuity with the first two movies. A) it was always intended and hinted at that Magneto's machine was the cause of Jean's power expansion. Plus neuronal electrical radiation? Are you a scientist? lol B) Her phoenix effect was different in X2 then in X3 and you would think if she had psychic blocks, you would see some mood swings in X2 and C) At the end of X2, Xavier knew Jean was alive and didn't seem at all concerned that something was wrong. He even said Jean was always hesitant about her powers. As seen in X3, she was at first arrogant and highly confident with her them. So definatly a big Plot-Hole.

 

[xii22_loop]

perhaps Mr Sinister gave Magneto the machine with the sole purpose of carefullly setting up events to lead to unleasing Jean's true power.
Mr Sinister's second fav person to screw with (other then Scott Summers) is Jean and her phoenixness (Ms. Pryor, Jean in AoA).

but NVM< excuse me for getting alittle offtopic and ahead of myself.

 

[britrogue]

Where oh where to begin...

-It is completely non-canon with what Singer set up in the previous two. Jean was supposed to have become the Phoenix because of the radiation from Magneto's machine in X1. Btw, I hated how Xavier says "oh well she developed a duel personality and the bad part is it is called the phoenix.."..........WTF?!?!? it just seems like they rushed it they should've sticked with the original concept.

-Character development was good with what they gave her. Jean had one of the better treatments in the franchise and Famke is a great actress so she did well with the what she was given. But as mentioned before, horrible continuity with the first two films when it comes ot the creation of the Phoenix.

- So whats missing on her??? ummm..the PHOENIX RAPTOR! Even more proof that this film was rushed. It was seen when she resurrected in front of Cylcops (btw what an underwhelming scene that was). I mean they had a really cool concept for it and ran out of money the last minute and gave her the zombie look (which looked cool) but completely out of continuity the phoenix fire was shown in X2. Also killing off Cyclops so Wolverine can have the relationship with her is well I think everyone knows by now lol.

-Does it make justice to the comics? Well...the whole multiple personality thing is similar to the phoenix possesing her but again, the way they explained it was weak and it would've been much more believable if they just sticked with Singer's concept.

-So in conclusion what worked was Famke's amazing acting skills in pulling off a rushed and weak version of the Phoenix Saga. What didn't work is putting it to the side so the cure plot could be the main focus, killing off Cylclops then Xavier so Wolverine could be the one to save Jean, and taking out the raptor and going with a version different from what Singer had intended.

I couldn't agree with these points more.

 

[flavio_lebeau]

I'm going to have to disagree with you. The "mind blocks" seemed to just be a cheap, quick and easy way to discuss the Phoenix in TLS. Having Jean go through the original evolution, that is rebrith jean, phoenix then dark phoenix as originally intended, would've required more focus on Jean's character and most likely more filming. Penn has said that Fox originally didn't want Jean back and just wanted the cure plot but Kinberg and Penn had to pull some teeth just to put her in. I think they tried to go the original direction but it probally didn't work at out all since she was a side-plot and it wouldn't make too much sense so the mind blocks would be better for what fox wanted. Also it is out of continuity with the first two movies. A) it was always intended and hinted at that Magneto's machine was the cause of Jean's power expansion. Plus neuronal electrical radiation? Are you a scientist? lol B) Her phoenix effect was different in X2 then in X3 and you would think if she had psychic blocks, you would see some mood swings in X2 and C) At the end of X2, Xavier knew Jean was alive and didn't seem at all concerned that something was wrong. He even said Jean was always hesitant about her powers. As seen in X3, she was at first arrogant and highly confident with her them. So definatly a big Plot-Hole.

I'm not a scientist, but believe me, I study a lot, a lot of Biology on my daily basis, for my future profession.

Considering Magneto in the movies can only control magnetic fields and metal, I assume his machine propagates magnetic radiation. Such thing could (of course, let's suspend belief a little) activate the dormant neurons on Jean's brain, assuming the mind blocks are a result of Xavier deactivating certain neurons so that her extreme power couldn't be expressed according to her will. This is WAY easier to believe, and way more grounded than the radiation triggering a second mutation in ALL of her cells, activating the same specific gene in all of them, that could make her the ultimate mutant.

IMO, if you watch X2 without any bias or without knowing what COULD have happened in X3, you can see some moments where Jean seems to be led by The Phoenix. When she fights Scott, she seems to be consumed by that Force, almost like she enjoys to be hurting him. But of course, that depends on each one's perceptions. That's how I saw it.

Do I still hate X3? Sure, but not because of this theory. I hate how it is never developed and, after mentioned, is completely forgotten so that we can see the "amazing" action scenes. I do regret not seeing the Hellfire Club or Singer's take on Phoenix, but I don't think the mind blocks are what destroy the character, although it does bring some continuity problems as you pointed on the last scene of X2.

 

[javphonic]

The character should have been developed better, as well as the continuity
-WTH they made her have a dual personality, her parents should have explained at the begining when they meet her that she lost her best friend died in her arms after being hit by a car that would account for the dual personality
-or-
-after using Cerebro in X-1 as she was struggling she let out a psychic shout that was answered by the phoenix, who connected with her
-or- Cerebro boosted her powers

-She should have struggled within herself more+ she shouldn't have hurt Scott, Jean would never let that happen

- The Phoenix effects, were cool, but she should have glowed at the end with telelinetic energy shaping out a phoenix, nothing big or NEthing, but something subtle yet cool like X2

- The Phoenix outfit, could have been better, they could have given her wild curls to resemble flames, and they could have atleast worked the famous phoenix belt into the suite simple: piece if cloth around her waist held together by a gold phoinix pendant

 

[gambitfire]

I forgot about Cerebro affecting Jean.

Which would of been a factor that makes the selection of evolution in her gene (affected by Magneto's machine) less random.

It just makes sense to me that this is the route Singer would of taken.

It's deffinetley something I would of prefered and not have had a problem with.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

What really didn't work for me was the lack of interraction between Phoenix and the rest of the X-Men. The majority of her points of contact in the team didn't survive the experience--and everyone else she had a relationship with didn't get any screentime with her.

It would've been nice to see Storm and Jean have at least some interraction--afterall, the prior films showed them as close comrades.

 

[Angamb]

Yes, is really sad that a film about a team/school didn't show the relationship of the x-men with Jean. I'd have loved to see a scene of Rogue with her, maybe in the infirmary, or at least asking about her, worried... but nothing. And Beast.... why didn't he care for her if they were friends, team mates, etc.? Even Storm. Has no sense. Big fault from the script.

 

[X-Maniac]

There was a lack of interaction in X2 as well. This was very much Jean's private struggle, including in X2. No one in X2 even seemed that bothered about her powers expanding (just a line from Wolverine 'That was some display of power up there', even though it wouldn't be that obvious that Jean had done anything - her power isn't visible and she wasn't facing everyone when her eyes fired up.)

Did Phoenix work in X3? Not really. Cyclops' sudden demise, the name Phoenix plucked from nowhere with no reason given or shown (no firebird), a costume more like Scarlet Witch, standing around for half of the movie. Lack of interaction/dialogue didn't help, she was stood around at Alcatraz, we didn't really know what she was feeling. The novel has her surveying everything like a goddess, seeing it as insignificiant and petty and beyond her; I'm more inclined to think this was just good ol' hesitant, benign Jean and her privately troubled thoughts (as we saw through X2). Didn't quite work though. Would have been better for Magneto to have named her Phoenix because she had risen from the ashes.

In terms of pleasing fans, obviously not a great success (based on here). In terms of respecting the source material, it didn't. In terms of respecting the previous movies, it didn't. In terms of mainstream reaction, critics only really mentioned her standing around at Alcatraz as bad, which it was. And I speak as someone who enjoyed X3! But I can see its faults.

Still, it's all done now. And a bit pointless to bring her back.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Just in case, are we reading each other's opinions? That's part of the game, no?

That would help tremendously now, wouldn't it? LOL

 

[Child-of-Light]

- General Opinions on the "Mind Blocks" theory. Does it work within the plot of the movie and the story settled by its predecessors?

I think the bind blocks a simple adn short way for brett to cheat the audience with the phoenix doesnt he rember in x2 jean greys speech hence EVLOUTION LEAPS FORWARD. In the comics it was an entity which i dont think they could have pulled of in the movie but the dual personality was weak and in the comics even proffesor xaiver thinks that it is her powers evolving.

- The character development, as well as the continuity.

Her character evelopment was poor she ahd hardly any lines and was over shadowed by the cure plot she was hardly a thread her scale for power was minimal compared to what she did in the comics. She could of had lines that would have made her a very complex character in the movie but no one gave them to her.

- What is missing on her?

The fact that she had no really breack down with scott gone and her sacrifice to save everyone it was wolverine who killed her which the dark phoenix saga was all about jean could have lived to be a god but would rather die a human.


- Does it make justice, at least partially, to the comic version?

NO, i was so disapointed in her to me she wasnt the phoenix she wasnt even jean anymore i didnt know what they did to her. Almost everything was ruined. i do belive though famke did a wonderful job it wasnt her fault the lines she had i thought she deserved a more notible role.


- The Phoenix effects. Good enough, was the Firebird essential or not?

The phoenix effects were simple, they needed fire and more flying that is doen well she needed to burn people to crisps i think it would have been neat to see phoenix go to space and crush a planet neer by to show her destruction. Also the whole reborn deal i think that need more of an explantion that she died but lived. Brett tried to get ride of taht part of the comic by saying hte only explantion is that she created a field of telikentic energy.



- The Phoenix outfit.

The phoenix outfit was ok but wasnt the phoenix out fit to me if she were to have an outfit it should be something not like the comic becuase i understand that would look corny but something a little more like the costume in the comic but not so much i dont know how to describe how i would want it i just know i would have liked something diffrent