Dr doomsday
Civilian
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2015
- Messages
- 159
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 11
Greeting my fellow X men movie fans this is my first topic I've ever started and I'll be starting with something a little controversial a break down of the Dark Phoenix arc from X3 and the comic story now I know what you are all thinking what's the point the comic awesome X3 sucked actually that is the point right there did X3's dark Phoenix arc actually suck was it a betrayal of the comic story did it miss the point of the comic and if so how bad did it improve on anything or not that's what I'm going to delve into right now warning this will be long.
Now most of the complaints are about Cyclops and the fire bird, the fire bird in particular is a very intriguing case because it simply put did not exist originally it was a retcon as such many people have stated that Dark Phoenix saga was this cosmic space opera actually no The Phoenix saga was but only the end of Dark Phoenix was like that. Many people have somewhat mistaken what the story was actually about what the actual purpose behind it was not what you claimed the purpose was.
That originally there was no cosmic being there was no fire bird there was no fire period. Dark Phoenix was originally about Jeans struggle with her powers and alternate self and the X men’s attempts to safe her only to realize they can’t. It was about the hellfire club’s efforts to control her powers only for her to break free. It was about the X men battling against someone who was once a friend. It was about a love that was in the end completely doomed. There is no fire bird in those descriptions why because the fire bird is just a big budgeted mindless visual effect it is completely irrelevant to who Dark Phoenix is.
I know what everyone is thinking the fire bird is Phoenix maybe now but not originally and was that retcon actually a good thing I mean yes Phoenix is now a central part of the overall mythos but has it bettered everything originally Dark Phoenix was a great end to Jean grey’s character now it’s not even her story anymore it wasn’t even her in neither the comics or the show it was the Phoenix force which is it’s own entity and is not a part of her mind or psyche in any way the retcon took Jean’s best story arc and gave it to another who didn’t even exist at the time.
Though that’s not entirely what this is about many people state the movie missed the point of the Dark Phoenix saga and by miss I am of course referring to the one thing fans won’t shut up about with anything X men related which is of course (deep breath) CYCLOPS!!! In recent time there has been a new mentality in X fans if it focuses on Wolverine or if Cyclops isn’t focused on it’s crap regardless if it is or not. In fans mind Cyclops not being a part of X3 immediately makes it crap which doesn’t make sense. He was the main character of the comic. I am aware of this your point. The movie butchered it should’ve been Cyclops and Jean. I’m at a loss how does this affect the quality of the writing would X3 be magically better if Cyclops took Wolverines place.
Now if you said yes then you’re judging this movie completely wrong because you’re not judging the story or the writing you’re judging the fact that main character wasn’t who you wanted it be despite the fact that doing so wouldn’t make sense would changing the main character from Luke to Han in return of the Jedi make sense no you know why because it’s story telling logic that you don’t switch out your main character in the third act. Wolverine had to be the main character of X3 because he was the main character of the previous two therefore he had to be for the third this is simple logic. So to maintain the feel of the trilogy and not feel tacked on this version of Dark Phoenix had to have Wolverine as the main character which is irrelevant in the long run it doesn’t matter who the main character of Dark Phoenix is what matters is the story being told and that it hits all the emotional and critical plot points the original did and guess what X3 did.
I’m well aware this statement is empty without proof so here we go this is basically the bare bones of the dark Phoenix arc which is the only thing the movie was bond to nothing does straight up adaptations anymore or really ever. The basic run down of the Dark Phoenix saga are following, Jean is discovered, Phoenix origin is revealed, outside force seeks to control her and manipulates her emotions to make them join her, the X men attempt to rescue her from the enemies base Wolverine also storms the base single handily, she snaps when she believes Cyclops dies, she does something unforgivable, the X men battle her at her home where Xaiver has a psychic battle with her, everyone’s efforts to control her fail resulting in her losing control and finally she regains control long enough to sacrifice her life for those she loves.
X3 hits all of those, First: Jean’s discovery is pretty much the same and the explanation for phoenix is very similar to the original one from the comics.
Second: Outside force seeking to control her Magneto fulfills this role perfectly almost better than the hellfire club does since Magneto has a history with everyone in the movie.
Third: Villain manipulates her emotions Magneto fulfills this role though not as complex he takes advantage of Jeans confused state after she kills the Professor.
Forth: Cyclops death does trigger her transformation the only difference being this time he actually did die but that’s not the point the exact same thing causes her to snap it happens earlier but still the same idea.
Fifth: she does something unforgivable this is a case where the movie actually improves on the comic in the comic Jean wipes out a planet of people we know nothing about nor do we care about them so when her death is demanded we’re completely on the side of the X men in the movie she kills the professor now we’re not so sure we’re on her side anymore making the conflict more complex.
Sixth: The battle at her house this does still happen not as many people are there and it is earlier but it’s still the same idea the psychic battle still happens the result is different but the scene in essence is still similar.
Seventh: The X men do try to plead with Jean and Phoenix and they still fail this just happens much earlier but it still happens.
Eighth: everyone’s efforts to control her fail and she goes on a rampage destroying everything this happens quite clearly I might add and in the end she regains control long enough to sacrifice herself for the people she loves.
X3 hits every single important point with one very massive change Wolverine is the main character and yet this doesn’t change anything Wolverine fills Cyclops’ role easily why because in the comic he has had a psychic link with her at some point and he has been her love interest at some point as well. More importantly though Wolverine loves Jean just as much as Scott does. So he has the psychic link Scott did he loves her just as much therefore his reaction to the events will be the same. So my final question why can’t he be the main character of the Dark Phoenix saga he has all the qualities he can carry the emotional weight of the story just as well in the end the story is still about a doomed love everything that made the story what it was is still there just now it’s Wolverine.
Are you really telling me you would hate the comic if Cyclops wasn’t the main character, nonsense what about the story of Jeans fall the X men’s reaction to it the struggle to control her the realization that she must die the moment when she does was all that good just because it was Cyclops no it was good because the story was good because it was tragic, powerful and emotional, which you’re seriously telling me what happened to Jean in X3 wasn’t tragic, what happened to Xaiver wasn’t emotional, and Wolverine and Jeans final moment wasn’t powerful.
I make this final statement let’s say X Men the last stand was the comic version of Dark Phoenix with a few alterations Cyclops still dies but near the end of the story but other than that it’s the same story now you’re all saying it wouldn’t have the same impact you’re right it would have more because not only is jean going bad and dying in the end but she straight up murders two main characters I honestly don’t think it would’ve been allowed to even be published because that’s too dark. But if it was would people be hating it I highly doubt it instead you would have people talking about when Jean killed Xaiver and when Wolverine was forced to gut her people would be talking about those moments to this very day the story would be immortal how could it not with such game changing and impacting events never mind the death of three main characters.
Now fast forward and the movie version is the comic now the comic is the one being trashed instead people are saying it should’ve been jean and Logan WTF is this crap. Jean killed the Professor not some random planet this is crap. Wolverine killed Jean not some space cannon they got it all wrong. WTF where is Magneto he and Xaiver were supposed to fight for control of Jean how could they f up so bad. Only jean dies in the end way to play it safe Fox. Now of course the point is once again fans would be missing the good now Cyclops is the main character and just as with Wolverine can carry it perfectly. The hellfire club do their job and Jean has a bit more focus there are plenty of good to be had it would be a good enough representation but just as with X men the last stand fans would only care about if it was accurate to the source material rather than if the story was actually good.
Thus the final point X men the last stand is a good movie and a good enough adaptation of the dark Phoenix saga it hits all the required points just as the comic would if it were the other way around.
(This is just part 1 of a multipart thread which will break down X3 and examine it to it's core part 2 will be coming soon)
Now most of the complaints are about Cyclops and the fire bird, the fire bird in particular is a very intriguing case because it simply put did not exist originally it was a retcon as such many people have stated that Dark Phoenix saga was this cosmic space opera actually no The Phoenix saga was but only the end of Dark Phoenix was like that. Many people have somewhat mistaken what the story was actually about what the actual purpose behind it was not what you claimed the purpose was.
That originally there was no cosmic being there was no fire bird there was no fire period. Dark Phoenix was originally about Jeans struggle with her powers and alternate self and the X men’s attempts to safe her only to realize they can’t. It was about the hellfire club’s efforts to control her powers only for her to break free. It was about the X men battling against someone who was once a friend. It was about a love that was in the end completely doomed. There is no fire bird in those descriptions why because the fire bird is just a big budgeted mindless visual effect it is completely irrelevant to who Dark Phoenix is.
I know what everyone is thinking the fire bird is Phoenix maybe now but not originally and was that retcon actually a good thing I mean yes Phoenix is now a central part of the overall mythos but has it bettered everything originally Dark Phoenix was a great end to Jean grey’s character now it’s not even her story anymore it wasn’t even her in neither the comics or the show it was the Phoenix force which is it’s own entity and is not a part of her mind or psyche in any way the retcon took Jean’s best story arc and gave it to another who didn’t even exist at the time.
Though that’s not entirely what this is about many people state the movie missed the point of the Dark Phoenix saga and by miss I am of course referring to the one thing fans won’t shut up about with anything X men related which is of course (deep breath) CYCLOPS!!! In recent time there has been a new mentality in X fans if it focuses on Wolverine or if Cyclops isn’t focused on it’s crap regardless if it is or not. In fans mind Cyclops not being a part of X3 immediately makes it crap which doesn’t make sense. He was the main character of the comic. I am aware of this your point. The movie butchered it should’ve been Cyclops and Jean. I’m at a loss how does this affect the quality of the writing would X3 be magically better if Cyclops took Wolverines place.
Now if you said yes then you’re judging this movie completely wrong because you’re not judging the story or the writing you’re judging the fact that main character wasn’t who you wanted it be despite the fact that doing so wouldn’t make sense would changing the main character from Luke to Han in return of the Jedi make sense no you know why because it’s story telling logic that you don’t switch out your main character in the third act. Wolverine had to be the main character of X3 because he was the main character of the previous two therefore he had to be for the third this is simple logic. So to maintain the feel of the trilogy and not feel tacked on this version of Dark Phoenix had to have Wolverine as the main character which is irrelevant in the long run it doesn’t matter who the main character of Dark Phoenix is what matters is the story being told and that it hits all the emotional and critical plot points the original did and guess what X3 did.
I’m well aware this statement is empty without proof so here we go this is basically the bare bones of the dark Phoenix arc which is the only thing the movie was bond to nothing does straight up adaptations anymore or really ever. The basic run down of the Dark Phoenix saga are following, Jean is discovered, Phoenix origin is revealed, outside force seeks to control her and manipulates her emotions to make them join her, the X men attempt to rescue her from the enemies base Wolverine also storms the base single handily, she snaps when she believes Cyclops dies, she does something unforgivable, the X men battle her at her home where Xaiver has a psychic battle with her, everyone’s efforts to control her fail resulting in her losing control and finally she regains control long enough to sacrifice her life for those she loves.
X3 hits all of those, First: Jean’s discovery is pretty much the same and the explanation for phoenix is very similar to the original one from the comics.
Second: Outside force seeking to control her Magneto fulfills this role perfectly almost better than the hellfire club does since Magneto has a history with everyone in the movie.
Third: Villain manipulates her emotions Magneto fulfills this role though not as complex he takes advantage of Jeans confused state after she kills the Professor.
Forth: Cyclops death does trigger her transformation the only difference being this time he actually did die but that’s not the point the exact same thing causes her to snap it happens earlier but still the same idea.
Fifth: she does something unforgivable this is a case where the movie actually improves on the comic in the comic Jean wipes out a planet of people we know nothing about nor do we care about them so when her death is demanded we’re completely on the side of the X men in the movie she kills the professor now we’re not so sure we’re on her side anymore making the conflict more complex.
Sixth: The battle at her house this does still happen not as many people are there and it is earlier but it’s still the same idea the psychic battle still happens the result is different but the scene in essence is still similar.
Seventh: The X men do try to plead with Jean and Phoenix and they still fail this just happens much earlier but it still happens.
Eighth: everyone’s efforts to control her fail and she goes on a rampage destroying everything this happens quite clearly I might add and in the end she regains control long enough to sacrifice herself for the people she loves.
X3 hits every single important point with one very massive change Wolverine is the main character and yet this doesn’t change anything Wolverine fills Cyclops’ role easily why because in the comic he has had a psychic link with her at some point and he has been her love interest at some point as well. More importantly though Wolverine loves Jean just as much as Scott does. So he has the psychic link Scott did he loves her just as much therefore his reaction to the events will be the same. So my final question why can’t he be the main character of the Dark Phoenix saga he has all the qualities he can carry the emotional weight of the story just as well in the end the story is still about a doomed love everything that made the story what it was is still there just now it’s Wolverine.
Are you really telling me you would hate the comic if Cyclops wasn’t the main character, nonsense what about the story of Jeans fall the X men’s reaction to it the struggle to control her the realization that she must die the moment when she does was all that good just because it was Cyclops no it was good because the story was good because it was tragic, powerful and emotional, which you’re seriously telling me what happened to Jean in X3 wasn’t tragic, what happened to Xaiver wasn’t emotional, and Wolverine and Jeans final moment wasn’t powerful.
I make this final statement let’s say X Men the last stand was the comic version of Dark Phoenix with a few alterations Cyclops still dies but near the end of the story but other than that it’s the same story now you’re all saying it wouldn’t have the same impact you’re right it would have more because not only is jean going bad and dying in the end but she straight up murders two main characters I honestly don’t think it would’ve been allowed to even be published because that’s too dark. But if it was would people be hating it I highly doubt it instead you would have people talking about when Jean killed Xaiver and when Wolverine was forced to gut her people would be talking about those moments to this very day the story would be immortal how could it not with such game changing and impacting events never mind the death of three main characters.
Now fast forward and the movie version is the comic now the comic is the one being trashed instead people are saying it should’ve been jean and Logan WTF is this crap. Jean killed the Professor not some random planet this is crap. Wolverine killed Jean not some space cannon they got it all wrong. WTF where is Magneto he and Xaiver were supposed to fight for control of Jean how could they f up so bad. Only jean dies in the end way to play it safe Fox. Now of course the point is once again fans would be missing the good now Cyclops is the main character and just as with Wolverine can carry it perfectly. The hellfire club do their job and Jean has a bit more focus there are plenty of good to be had it would be a good enough representation but just as with X men the last stand fans would only care about if it was accurate to the source material rather than if the story was actually good.
Thus the final point X men the last stand is a good movie and a good enough adaptation of the dark Phoenix saga it hits all the required points just as the comic would if it were the other way around.
(This is just part 1 of a multipart thread which will break down X3 and examine it to it's core part 2 will be coming soon)
Last edited:
Some of that was really hard to understand, which is a shame because -
