The Dark Knight Rises Dent's hero/villain analogy

[Rockadood]

When Dent said "you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain", do you think this ominous message will carry over to the next film?

Almost all of the people trying to rid Gotham of crime; Rachel, Loeb, the judge etc... died heroes. Many of the Gotham cops turned crooked.

Dent lived to see himself become the villain, as did Batman

Do you think we might see Gordon outcast, or any of the other "good guys" turn bad in the next film?

Just thinking, Nolan carried the theme of escalation forward after Gordon's speech in Begins, maybe this theme could be expanded on.

 

[The Batkilt]

I don't think it's a theme as such, it's part of Dent's story and words that would haunt Batman. The fact he's seen firsthand what happened to such a good man in Harvey Dent would either cause him to doubt whether it's worth being Batman - which we've already seen - or cause him to realise he has to now become Batman rather than Bruce Wayne and that some may always view him as the villain. Which he semed to realise by the end of the film anyway.

 

[Rockadood]

Thanks for replying. I can't help thinking that Gordon's story is going to become a lot more complicated. He KNOWS Batman is a true hero who is being hounded as a murderer. He will surely still be loyal to Batman, which would cast him in a bad light.

Maybe, like others have said, about the theme being "redemption", both Gordon and Batman will need to struggle to clear Batman's name, in a way reversing what Dent said, bringing that whole theme full circle.

 

[The Batkilt]

That's what I love about The Dark Knight. Jim Gordon is actually more than just a glorified extra in these films and developed as a character as well. Obviously it was a different era but after Batman each sequel tended to focus less and less on Batman, and more on more on the villain. No real character development. Yet in these films each important character has been given time to shine without it taking away from Batman himself.

I agree with you on Gordon's role in a potential third film. It'd likely involve him having to hunt him down which should hopefully give Gary Oldman even more to play with in terms of the character.

 

[DeeBarr]

I reckon Gordon will go after him... He's a wanted murderer now.

 

[Rockadood]

Gordon will be conflicted though, because he knows the truth. I'm sure he'll try to clear Batman's name. Also, if everyone's trying to reveal Batman's true identity, that's further reason to redeem Batman.

 

[Melkay]

Gordon's arc is not Bruce/Batman's arc at all. They have similar points but their journeys are essentially different. Gordon had to deal with many of the main problemas he face in Batman Begins.... that he may be one of the few decent cops left in Gotham - if not the only one.

And that the dilemma Nolan introduced in TDK with Harvey's little motto: "Either you die a Hero or you live long enough to see yourself become a Villain". What was he talking about? Corruption. Not any kind of corruption, but corruption through Power.

In Begins, Gordon was just another cop. One good cop in a swarm of bribes and police force colaborating with the mob. And he didn't do anything about it. How could he? He was just another cop. But by the end of TDK he went from sargeant to lieutenant (leading his own Special Unit) to Police Commisioner. He had to face dealing with corruption as a leader. And when he got power, Harvey saw his passiveness as a sign of corruption. He stood by and did nothing. And he paid the consequences.

In the next film Gordon is in his worst place possible. Not only he knows that he NEEDS to stand against corruption among the men HE LEADS, but he's algo separated from his greatest ally: Batman. And now he needs to confront the difficult task of gaining the trust of the police and still unite the force and clean the corruption away.

He will find that not every policeman out there will obey his orders and there may be a lot of officers (like Sgt. Harvey Bullock) who won't be persuaded very easily to cut Batman some slack. And maybe Comissioner Gordon will have some external pressure on catching the Batman. The FBI, maybe, after they send the Batman Task Force.

I developed some ideas based on that that employed the Riddler as a a villain, but not in the traditional way. Please, check it up here:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=15582806&highlight=Gordon#post15582806

The following posts after that consider some uses of other villains as Catwoman, Mr. Freeze and the Penguin.

 

[The Batkilt]

I agree with a lot of your points, Melkay. Another thing that appeals to me about a sequel to TDK is Gordon becoming a bit more jaded like he is in the comics. I don't mean that as in 'he's too upbeat!' just that after all the pressures he's been under and the death of someone that grew to become an ally, if not a friend, and then having to hunt down his closest ally...he'd become a bit more like the Gordon we all know.

For the record I like the idea of Eddie Nashton/Nygma being a fed and using The Riddler persona to draw Batman out - but I think it'd be more interesting if he didn't totally cross over into being a villain. If that makes sense.

 

[Rockadood]

Good points, Melkay. I like the idea of Riddler becoming obsessed with unmasking Batman. Maybe he should work for the mob though, rather than the police. The mob would pay good money to get their hands on Batman before the police. He could double cross them by leaving clues for Batman to take them out one-by-one, helping Batman to redeem himself. It would also redeem the Riddler's character.

On the subject of redemption, Rees is still alive and would be an obvious target, I'd like to see him questioned by the mob or the police, and not say a word or pretend he made it up to get on TV.

Edit: Riddler could work for the mob AND the police, playing one off against the other for his own ends. Makes him a much more tricky character.