The Dark Knight Did Joker know Bruce Wayne was Batman?

[The Guard]

The Joker read Batman like a book. Bale's Batma wears his heart on his sleeve. When The Joker and Maroni tried to get to him psychologically, you could see he'd been gotten to. When Joker grabs Rachel, look at the obvious concern on Batman's face. He's not demanding Joker let her go so much as he's terrified for her safety.

 

[VoiceOfReason]

Look, there are PLENTY of clues here.

1. Joker wants Harvey to be his "ace in the hole" -- he knows he is corruptible. He also knows Harvey loves Rachel, and that if she dies, he is going to be easily malleable.

2. He knows Batman has an affinity for Rachel -- "the way he threw himself at her" during the dinner party scene. Also the line "...does Harvey know..." also lends credence to the fact that the Joker, as usual, reads people like books. He knows Batman has a thing for Rachel, and he uses this to his advantage.

3. Clearly he switched the addresses. When Gordon asks Batman who he's going to save, he clearly says "RACHEL!" -- so he went to the address the Joker claimed was Rachel's. Instead, we find Dent. Even Rachel and Dent know they're intending to save Rachel.

4. Therefore, the Joker knew Batman would choose Rachel, and so he planned to have Rachel die in order to piss the hell out of Dent and "bring him down to our level."


For someone who claims to never scheme, Joker's one hell of a planner.

 

[wikum]

The way I see it is that Joker may well know Batman is Bruce Wayne...but the truth is he doesn't want to know.
Now you might be thinking "Wtf are you talking about? He asks him to take off his mask more than once!" and yes you are right....but he's only making the threat because he's certain Batman won't reveal his own identity. If people fine out who Batman really is....Jokers fun and games are over...he can't go on without him. This is why he tries to murder Reese.

On the other side of the coin...there are a couple of moments in the interrogation scene where Batman actually sees where The Joker is coming from and kinda agrees with him without actually ever saying that he does.

 

[Spider-Man '92]

Regardless of who was going after them, Joker knew they were more likely to go after Rachel, and so he switched the addresses. It may have also been the fact that he wanted Dent to live knowing Rachel could have been saved.

 

[JayTee]

Joker doesn't know. Just because WE the audience know Bruce Wayne has a thing for Rachel (Let alone Batman!), there's a good chance 99.99% of Gotham City doesn't even know she's even dating Harvey.

It's absurd to think Reese talked to the Joker. Joker used Reese as a diversion to get to the hospital and was bored with Batman's unmasking anyway.

Also, the Joker is a sadist and a sociopath to the highest degree but contrary to popular belief, he is not "insane". He's a master criminal, and more than half of his speech about planners was total BS to get Harvey over the edge.

Love that Joker!

 

[Angeloz]

Joker doesn't know. Just because WE the audience know Bruce Wayne has a thing for Rachel (Let alone Batman!), there's a good chance 99.99% of Gotham City doesn't even know she's even dating Harvey.

There's no tabloids in Gotham? Besides I thought it was mentioned briefly on a "Gotham TV news channel" during the film. I've only seen it once so might misremember.

It's absurd to think Reese talked to the Joker. Joker used Reese as a diversion to get to the hospital and was bored with Batman's unmasking anyway.

I agree. Hence him changing his mind. So instead of wanting Batman's identity known: he protected it in his special way. Chaos and trying to get people to kill others.

Also, the Joker is a sadist and a sociopath to the highest degree but contrary to popular belief, he is not "insane". He's a master criminal, and more than half of his speech about planners was total BS to get Harvey over the edge.

Love that Joker!

It depends if you think sociopathy to be healthy or not. I loved him in the film but because it was a film and not real.

Angeloz

 

[Knight_Of_Steel]

The Joker knew because he had that one guy who said, "I want one million dollars everyday for the rest of my life." trying to expose his identity and essentially 'kill' Batman. But he decided not to expose his identity because Batman was 'So much fun.'

 

[Knight_Of_Steel]

The Joker knew because he had that one guy who said, "I want one million dollars everyday for the rest of my life." trying to expose his identity and essentially 'kill' Batman. But he decided not to expose his identity because Batman was 'So much fun.'

 

[Armalarm]

joker knew that batman had a thing for racheal, but what joker didnt know, was that bruce also had a thing for racheal, no where in the movie does joker find out about bruce and racheals relationship. and as for reese, it was blackmail he didnt really know the identity of batman...it was all part of the plan.

 

[Armalarm]

so how could joker know who batman is?

 

[Jokers_Wild]

Joker should never know Batman's true identity...it ruins the game.

 

[bgates87]

The Joker never knew that Bruce Wayne was Batman. He says in the interrogation room that for a while he thought Batman was Harvey Dent because of the way he jumped out the window after Rachel and then of course because Harvey actually said he was Batman. He doesn't realize that Harvey isn't Batman until the Tumbler comes barreling down the street while The Joker's trying to take out the armored vehicle with Harvey in it (that's what the "hmm..." is for). After realizing that, all he knows is that whoever Batman is he must also have a thing for Rachel, and that's all he implies in the interrogation room scene.

I see no reason why The Joker should even know that Bruce Wayne exists. Sure he crashed a party that Bruce Wayne threw but he probably didn't even care who threw the party or why, he just knew Harvey was going to be there. And on a side note, I like the way they repeated the idea of a villain crashing one of Bruce's parties, like Ra's Al Guhl did in Batman Begins. It's a good way to attach him personally to the villains both as Bruce Wayne and Batman.

 

[uranewb]

The Joker read Batman like a book. Bale's Batman wears his heart on his sleeve. When The Joker and Maroni tried to get to him psychologically, you could see he'd been gotten to. When Joker grabs Rachel, look at the obvious concern on Batman's face. He's not demanding Joker let her go so much as he's terrified for her safety.

I agree. I've noticed that the Joker is very observant. Just like how he knows a squealer when he see's one. Ex: Lau

 

[bgates87]

joker knew that batman had a thing for racheal, but what joker didnt know, was that bruce also had a thing for racheal, no where in the movie does joker find out about bruce and racheals relationship. and as for reese, it was blackmail he didnt really know the identity of batman...it was all part of the plan.

I think Mr. Reese did know who Batman was. Even if it wasn't clear in the scene he has with Lucius Fox, you can tell from the look that Reese gives to Wayne when Bruce saves his life towards the end of the film. Still, The Joker never talked to Reese directly so it doesn't matter if Reese really knew or not in the context of this thread.

 

[sasquatchs]

The Joker read Batman like a book. Bale's Batma wears his heart on his sleeve. When The Joker and Maroni tried to get to him psychologically, you could see he'd been gotten to. When Joker grabs Rachel, look at the obvious concern on Batman's face. He's not demanding Joker let her go so much as he's terrified for her safety.

Yea, there's a few aspects to Nolan's Batman that I don't much like but which they managed to logically explore this time in a smart way. TDK felt much more aware of itself, sometimes of its own ridiculousness, but without resorting to the awful winks at the camera we got last time. Well, mostly

 

[OCDiva]

hmmm interesting theories. I think the next one we will know more. I mean how do you explain Dent not asking Bruce "why the hell did you knock me out at the party"? That never gets brought up....I don't think Joker knew Bruce=Batman, but I think if Rachael would have lived...he would have put it together.

 

[Dr. Manhatten]

In the comics, did the Joker know who Batman is?

 

[tmlfan3]

okay well here goes. many of you seemed to have missed a key point joker makes in the interrogation scene.

joker never wanted to know who batman is. He tells him near the beginning of the scene "I was testing you, and you didn't disappoint." Joker is indifferent to whether batman reveals himself or not. if he does, then he is not a worthy adversary and joker will continue on with his antic. but if he doesn't (which we all knew he wouldn't) then it's a whole new game, and much more interesting for joker. (no more robbing mob banks, he's got bigger game).

as for reese, yes he knew who batman is but joker does not. when he says "i changed my mind" it isn't talking to reese. The whole city thinks that he wants to know who batman is and so it's telling them that he doesn't want to know anymore (batman has passed his test) and has a new game to play.

now batman/dent/rachel. as has been pointed out many times joker knows batman has a thing for rachel from his reaction at the party and so it adds a lovely twist to his game with batman/dent cuz when he kidnaps them he knows batman is not dent and so gives him this choice to face. either way it is going to crush him, one is the woman he "loves" and the other represents everything batman wants gotham to become. by switching the addresses batman is "wrong" either way which adds to the blow. if you bank on him going for rachel and switch the address... you have made a big hit against both batman and harvey... simple as that.

and finally... come on people. joker knew and switched the locations. batman says he's going for rachel and gordon yells out the address where "dent" is (250 50th street i think) and that's where he goes and rachel is there.

ha sorry it's a little long...

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I would say NO to this one, and thats about it!

 

[uranewb]

hmmm interesting theories. I think the next one we will know more. I mean how do you explain Dent not asking Bruce "why the hell did you knock me out at the party"? That never gets brought up....I don't think Joker knew Bruce=Batman, but I think if Rachael would have lived...he would have put it together.

From what I remember, Bruce hits him from behind so Harvey didn't see his face.

 

[tommy408]

I think bosef982 is talking about Mama Mia movie because he thinks too much about the wrong idea.

 

[tommy408]

Tmlfan3 , Batman already know where Dent is. He wanted to save Dent because he is more important. He emphasized that throughout the movie.

 

[spideymouse]

EXACTLY, the joker purposely gave bats the wrong addy so he'd save dent which was ALWAYS part of the jokers plan.

he KNEW bats would go after rachel.

DUH

"Do I look like a guy who has a plan?"

haha but seriously, it's interesting that the Joker possibly meant for Harvey to live and Rachel to die, so that his "Ace in the Hole" would live on to become a freak.

maybe he didn't plan for it, maybe he did.

 

[spideymouse]

In the comics, did the Joker know who Batman is?

He did in the Batman Beyond movie. =)

 

[wootbaby]

For someone who claims to never scheme, Joker's one hell of a planner.

Anyone who took that scene at face value didn't understand the Joker at all in this movie. JOKER LIES. When Joker says that crap he's not talking about himself at all he's telling HARVEY what HE needs to hear in order to turn him. All that stuff about having no plan and fate being the only fair thing and forsaking your own schemes and plans is a straw man, so Harvey will embrace his duality fixation and go nut fuks. The last thing Joker wants is Harvey to stop and think who planned everything that just happened to him, so he gives Harvey a shove in the opposite direction (where Joker knew he was already leaning). ALL Joker ever does the entire movie is scheme and plan. A viewer can be excused for confusing it in the moment, just like when he tells Gambol about his father you think for a moment he's telling the truth. but as the movie goes on you realize he was probably talking about GAMBOL's father just like he was talking about RACHEL herself when he told the story about the faithless woman. he just says the most mocking, hurtful or emotionally crippling thing he can think of at the moment. viewing the rest of the movie unfold, it's clear how what Joker says to Harvey about not having a plan is just part of the plan

As for does Joker know Batman is Bruce Wayne. LMFAOOTFRALMAO. Joker will never know that for the same reason he could never have predicted how Batman would DESTROY Joker's plan by being altruistic and taking the fall for Dent. Joker thinks he knows Batman and that they're kindred spirits but he doesn't actually know the most important thing about Batman. Batman isn't about darkness... the vigilantism, his parents' murder, the anger, the vengeance. He's about a way through that darkness, fighting through it to the light at the end of the tunnel. Joker's world view does not allow for a truly selfless being... those who are noble are simply frauds or lucky... when push comes to shove they will fall like the rest of us.

Actually to him, Bruce Wayne would make sense. In a way he's a man who's embraced total nothingness like Joker. He's a man who has the wealth and the means to do anything yet does nothing. That's the type of lost, desperate, man whom Joker would consider actually correctly enlightened. Also Joker would appreciate the fact that Bruce is totally open and honest (esp to himself) about his misanthropy.

Batman... would not make sense to Joker. It would ROCK HIS WORLD. The idea of a man who starts with everything and gives up EVERYTHING for others, and to not "want" anything from that... to the Joker a man like that doesn't exist. Because goodness does not exist.

The reason Joker thinks he knows Batman is because he can correctly deduce his superficialities. For example there's no question he knows Batman has a relationship with Rachel. BUT the place Joker takes it is dark, evil. He automatically assumes it goes to Rachel's LACK OF VIRTUE and FAITHLESSNESS... basically her being a two faced ***** and a ****e. Where he takes it makes sense in Joker's world view. An example of a supposedly righteous woman who goes around with Dent while the Sun is shining and the camera is on TV, yet behind closed doors is ****ing someone else. The idea of the sublime nature of Bruce and Rachel's relationship where not only are they faithful, but lean on each other and implicitly trust each other with their lives and everything important... Joker could never get.

Because of the superficialities Joker can also anticipate and manipulate in large degree Batman's own actions. However his ultimate totally ignorance of the most important aspects of Batman's character makes Joker's ultimate defeat at the hands of the Batman... not only in this movie when Batman takes Harvey's guilt but in the comics and in every future movie... inevitable.

Now if Joker was somehow more like the Riddler, and could actually take an objective look at Batman as opposed to an insane obsessed one then yeah he would have a chance to figure it out... he's THAT smart. And thus he could probably "defeat" Batman as far as Batman's ultimate goal. But he cant, he doesn't and he wont. The End.