The Dark Knight Did Nolan redefine the comic book movie genre with Batman?

[BestGirl]

Whether or not he redefined it remains to be seen, if we start seeing more Nolanesque comic book movies in the future, then yes. I hope that's not the case though.

Darker properties may go in a Nolanesque direction, but it looks like Marvel, Spider-Man, and X-Men movies are still safely on the light, less realistic side.

 

[nathaniel]

Why is everybody forgetting a little movie that Tim Burton made in 1989 called Batman? And why is everybody calling TDK and intelligent movie? Did it really rack your brain in some parts? Please guys, dont start mixing a realistic version(style) for intelligence, because all he did was make Batman have a more realistic style...thats it. Just think for a second, if Burton used the same style as Nolan(realism), but still kept the same script he used in B89, it would be just as "intelligent" as Begins or TDK.

Exactly TDK isnt very intelligent i always said the great con of CBM is that it is percieved so. it has the illusion of intelligence with its great all star cast and realistic tone part of which is that batman isnt really much in the movie. the huge amount of time taken with Wayne and a severly toned down Joker (who though great is more a standard psycho then the clown prince of 40+ years of the characters existence) helps the movie enormously to keep it this way few other films in the CBM genre can pull this off if they tried the minute the powers of Superman,WW,lantern, Spiderman or the Xmen show off thier powers the movie will immediately lose any momentum in this direction it had case in point is the latter part of TDK which slides towards more traditional fare (like BB) as the hero thwarts the villains plans and a completly unrealisticly Scarred villain offs a few thugs.

And ill agree Burton is probably the father of the modern CBM with Batman he blended comic with more realistic acting and the risk he took with Keaton was incredibly brave on his part as was the decision to make bruce more a scaterbrained recluse (amazingly portrayed by Keaton imo still the king) then the traditional playboy who always had a model on his arm.

 

[Jack O Lantern]

Batman Returns is the most intelligent comic book movie ever made. It used German Expressionism to tell it's story. A form of filming making that uses mise-en scene to tell the story rather than dialouge or actions.

That is playing outside the box.

TDK is just like every other comic book movie, they slapped a guy in funny costume into a classic story. Is TDK being owning more to Heat than Superman any different to Spider-Man 2 owing more to It's a Wonderful Life than Superman?

 

[nathaniel]

German expressionism? tell me more..

 

[Jack O Lantern]

Not to go into too much detail because [a] I don't want to derail the thread I couldn't be fecked [c]there's this thing called google.

But German Expressionism is a film making style that oringinated after in First World War in [you guessed it] Germany. Because Germany was in such a poor economic state the German film-makers could not afford the lavish sets that were seen in Hollywood. So they decided to create mood by having unrealistic sets and shadows[used to cover up it's cheapness] It eventually evolved to a style that told a story through characters and mise en scene which means the make up of the scene, or everything you see in a shot. Eventually Hitler showed up and most of the film-makers fled to the USA and German Expressionism became the basis for Film Noir and horror movies.

In Batman Returns the story is about Bruce Wayne falling deeper into madness so that at the end of the film only Batman would remain. But that is never spoken or shown through the actions of the story, it is told through character.
The three villians are the Penguin [ a wronged orphan] Max Shrek [a powerful businessman] and Catwoman [ a masked vigilante]. They each represent one third of Wayne's physic. At the end of the film Catwoman kills Max Shreck on purpose, which is what Wayne wants in his mind. He wants to be the vigilante and not the buisnessman. But in killing ShreK, Catwomam destroys the Air Conditioner, which because of the fire kills the penguin. In killing the businessman, Wayne has also killed the child. He is now just Batman.

The sets in BR look really fake, outdoor sets shot in doors, are pretty easy to make look good [The Cohens backyard in the OC was an indoor set but never looked fake] and Burton is better than that. He makes a conscience choice to do it, and it's the same reason why it's a Christmas. Everybody is fake then, they're always happier because they're supposed to be, but the bad feelings are still under the surface, or in this case the sewer.

There's a lot more but I'm out

 

[Crook]

Indeed, there are quite a few articles you can find online that thoroughly explain Burton's directing mechanics in BR. I myself found a newfound appreciation for the movie once I actually learned to put everything together. It really is quite nuanced. The fact that most people don't even know it exists attributes to this.

 

[Ryan]

I actually thought the Catwoman storyline and Pfeiffer performance were the strongest parts of that movie and of all the movies during that earlier Batman run. I think it would still hold up today. As for the rest, and I suppose I'm getting off topic too, I never got into the Burton films like I did Nolan's Batman Begins. Walking out of Baman 89, which I had high hopes for as a kid I saw an overweight middle aged Joker battling a younger Batman who I never connected with either. After Batman Begins, I left that theatre thinking "ya I'd like to be that guy". Leaving TDK, I was much happier with Ledger's Joker....actually Nolan's Joker then I was Nicholsons'. I don't think it was perfect and I still think more could be done but Nolan's vision of the Joker made more of an imprint on me then Nicholsons' ever did. Just my thoughts.

 

[Anita18]

Indeed, there are quite a few articles you can find online that thoroughly explain Burton's directing mechanics in BR. I myself found a newfound appreciation for the movie once I actually learned to put everything together. It really is quite nuanced. The fact that most people don't even know it exists attributes to this.

It almost makes it a specialty genre film instead of a mainstream blockbuster.

I still can't get over the penguin rockets, I'm sorry.

 

[KrazyJ1098]

There's some stuff in Batman Returns that is just as bad as some of the crap in Batman & Robin. I said it.

 

[KILLING JOKER]

There's some stuff in Batman Returns that is just as bad as some of the crap in Batman & Robin. I said it.

such as.....

 

[Fenrir]

Indeed, there are quite a few articles you can find online that thoroughly explain Burton's directing mechanics in BR. I myself found a newfound appreciation for the movie once I actually learned to put everything together. It really is quite nuanced. The fact that most people don't even know it exists attributes to this.

Batman Returns is somewhat of a paradox unto itself. If you look underneath the storyline itself, it is actually one of (if not the) most adult and sophisticated comic book films ever made. But its complexity is often obscured by its uneven tone. One moment it is unrelentingly dark and serious and in a blink of an eye becomes goofy and ridiculous. All that German Expressionism is buried underneath the rubble of penguins strapped with rockets, the dumb circus gang and whatnot. If only the film was more consistent in this regard, it would have been praised much more.

 

[Mr. Earle]

There's some stuff in Batman Returns that is just as bad as some of the crap in Batman & Robin. I said it.

BR is just as bad as B&R IMHO. The only reason not many people rate it so low is because its serious and grimdark when B&R is downright ridiculous.

But BR is just as bad in that its Burton's S&M, nightmare fuel phantasy with Batman characters in it. B&R can at least be perceived as an effort to do a more lighthearted Batman like West's or the Brave and the Bold (maybe).

 

[CFE]

Not at all, because there is no "defined" way to make a comic book movie in the first place.

The discussion stops here

 

[Ryan]

I don't think there's been a defined way to make a comic book movie. But I think alot of them for a long while have been pretty formulaic. I think Nolan has broken that mold in the dark knight by giving pretty well all the main characters equal screen time and importance for the betterment of the story. Less gimmicky overused effects, bad comedy and making movies more character and storywise driven. That to me is what seperates Superman Returns from The Dark Knight.

 

[Octoberist]

Batman Returns is the most intelligent comic book movie ever made. It used German Expressionism to tell it's story. A form of filming making that uses mise-en scene to tell the story rather than dialouge or actions.

That is playing outside the box.

TDK is just like every other comic book movie, they slapped a guy in funny costume into a classic story. Is TDK being owning more to Heat than Superman any different to Spider-Man 2 owing more to It's a Wonderful Life than Superman?

I wouldn't go as far as the smartest comic book ever made because of the stylistic choices.

 

[The Joker]

I love Batman Returns. Definitely one of my favourites.

 

[Jack O Lantern]

I wouldn't go as far as the smartest comic book ever made because of the stylistic choices.

Neither would I. A choice of style does not equal intelligence. What does is that they chose a diifcult style and pulled it enough. They created a story that you couldn't just sit there and let it wash over you and still get it. You had to pay attention to it.

Every other superhero story you can watch while doing a crossword and still understand

 

[nathaniel]

I also loved Returns the great thing i liked is how Keaton played batman, (who is still the guy to beat as batman imo) there was just something about the guy, the torment/obsession behind the eyes and the great believable polar opposite between wayne and batman that was his genius effortlessly doing stuff that needs tons of wasteful dialoge in other movies with a single glance.

Its frankly what no other actor to play the character has done imo create a believable characterisation for the suited bat.

The supporting cast was also great Walken was the best non rogue enemy in the franchise while Phiffer shows why she is probably the best actress around at the time Devito gets his critics but he aced it imo its not the Penguin we know but he was a great elseworlds like interpretation.

 

[nathaniel]

Darker properties may go in a Nolanesque direction, but it looks like Marvel, Spider-Man, and X-Men movies are still safely on the light, less realistic side.

Xmen could get a bit darker imo X2 was the best ever superhero movie so far but it could have been better if they took the more violent nature and Christian religous zealousy being a large part of the hate towards mutants parts of God loves man kills (the book X2 was based on) and ran with it.

but you know how some quarters will react, the Fox news crowd would do backflips in thier anger.

 

[BestGirl]

Xmen could get a bit darker imo X2 was the best ever superhero movie so far but it could have been better if they took the more violent nature and Christian religous zealousy being a large part of the hate towards mutants parts of God loves man kills (the book X2 was based on) and ran with it.

but you know how some quarters will react, the Fox news crowd would do backflips in thier anger.

The X-Men series probably could go darker since the themes are certainly there. You are correct when you say why they won't, and that may not be such a bad thing. Superheroes need lighter movies too.

 

[p4poetic]

Raimi did it first. It was the first comic book movie to make you go 'wow'. Before then, I don't think people saw or categorized Superman: The Movie until Spider-Man came out. We just saw it as the Superman movie, you know? Of course being that comic book films weren't common then enough to see it that way, but I digress.

 

[KrazyJ1098]

such as.....

Penguins with rockets, The Penguin leaking black goo, Penguin eating a raw fish, The Penguin's duck, The Penguin actually looking like a deformed penguin/human hybrid, Catwoman being revived by cats, a gang dressed up as a bunch of circus performers.

It was pretty bad. The penguins with rockets is right up there with the credit card to me.

 

[Bat-Mite]

I don't think anything in BR ever got as bad as the stuff in Batman and Robin. Sure, it has its silly moments, but Burton always contrasts the (usually) dark nature of his work by throwing a good deal of humorous moments in. Even his darkest work yet, Sweeney Todd, had a few moments like that. Considering the extremely gothic setting and dark tone of the story, I actually welcomed the funny parts.

And I certainly wouldn't compare the Penguin bleeding black goo, his eating a raw fish, or his mutant appearance to the stuff in B&R. Mainly because that's the very kind of stuff the soccer moms of the time were boycotting the movie for. Folks wouldn't think twice about that stuff today, but at the time, this was all very shocking. I was 7 at the time, and my parents wouldn't take me to see the film because of its content. It's the only Batman film they refused to take me to during my childhood.