Did Ock steal Venom's thunder?

[Chris Wallace]

Movie Ock's tentacles-despite being mechanical-had a very organic feel to them. They came across like a living thing. WHich talked to him. And he responded. He was self-righteous & blamed Spider-Man for his ruination (this was downplayed, but still a part of the story) and even referred to himself in the plural. After seeing all this, there really wasn't much left for Venom to bring to the table, was there?

 

[webhead731]

They could have still done it if they wished.

Venom is the anti-Spider-Man, having abilities like Spidey, but being dark and full of hate. I thought they took that and used it well.

 

[The Joker]

Ock never blamed Spidey for anything. Where did Ock even remotely hint he blamed Spider-Man? It was not in the story anywhere. Ock didn't blame anyone for anything. He initially blamed himself because he miscalculated, until the tentacles convinced him he didn't, and the reactor could work.

As for the tentacles, the "We" thing was also used with Green Goblin, when Norman was talking to his Goblin persona or his Goblin mask.

"We killed them", "First we attack his heart", "There's only one who can stop us", "Parker, we can destroy him" etc etc. Which is hilarious because by the time they got to venom it was old hat.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Ock never blamed Spidey for anything. Where did Ock even remotely hint he blamed Spider-Man? It was not in the story anywhere. Ock didn't blame anyone for anything. He initially blamed himself because he miscalculated, until the tentacles convinced him he didn't, and the reactor could work.

"I couldn't have miscalculated. It was working, wasn't it? (PAUSE) Yeeessss."
If he didn't miscalculate, then what was the problem? If it was working, then what caused it not to work? If you didn't screw up, then outside interference has to be the cause.
"You've stuck your webs in my business for the last time." Implying that he'd interfered one time too many. Now again, the blame was more implicit than blatant, unlike in the videogame, where he directly accused Spider-Man of murdering Rosie. But it still seemed to me that in Ock's eyes, if not for Spider-Man's interference, he would have gotten the reaction under control. And think about it; when did he turn his back on the machine, allowing the energy burst to hit his back & fry the inhibitor chip? When he was focused on Rosie. When did Rosie get killed? When he was focused on Spidey. It may be a stretch, but even the most demented scientist still believes in cause & effect.

 

[The Joker]

"I couldn't have miscalculated. It was working, wasn't it? (PAUSE) Yeeessss."
If he didn't miscalculate, then what was the problem? If it was working, then what caused it not to work? If you didn't screw up, then outside interference has to be the cause.

Whatever the cause, he never ever blamed Spider-Man. He never even speculated as to what went wrong.

"You've stuck your webs in my business for the last time." Implying that he'd interfered one time too many.

Man, that was in reference to Spidey trying to stop Ock in the bank. "You're getting on my nerves". They had just spent the last 5 minutes fighting eachother in the bank and on the side of the building.

That's what Ock meant. Very obvious.

Now again, the blame was more implicit than blatant, unlike in the videogame, where he directly accused Spider-Man of murdering Rosie. But it still seemed to me that in Ock's eyes, if not for Spider-Man's interference, he would have gotten the reaction under control. And think about it; when did he turn his back on the machine, allowing the energy burst to hit his back & fry the inhibitor chip? When he was focused on Rosie. When did Rosie get killed? When he was focused on Spidey. It may be a stretch, but even the most demented scientist still believes in cause & effect.

You're right, it is a stretch. A very unbelievable one. The video game strayed from the movie in many, many, MANY ways. All three of them did. As did the novels.

The movie implies no blame on Spidey from Ock. It's not something a super villain would be subtle about. Or Raimi for that matter. Ock blamed himself. Until the arms told him he didn't fail, his reactor did work.

Not once did Ock the shift the blame to Spidey, or anyone else. I'm sorry, Chris, but you're seeing something that just wasn't there.

 

[Jick]

To steal, ,first, you must have it.
Ock didn't still, he maintained his thunder.

 

[[A]]

I thought he was defending Venom

 

[brianbuck]

Well, I haven't seen SM3 in it's entirety yet, but I will say this:
Venom never had any thunder to steal. I never cared for the character from shortly after his first appearance. A lack of dimension plus overexposure plus the feeble attempt to turn him into an edgy anti-hero essentially reduced Venom to the Boba Fett of the Marvel Universe-a guy who has an immense following based on a cool outfit.

Carnage, on the other hand, was loads of fun.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

Well, I haven't seen SM3 in it's entirety yet, but I will say this:
Venom never had any thunder to steal. I never cared for the character from shortly after his first appearance. A lack of dimension plus overexposure plus the feeble attempt to turn him into an edgy anti-hero essentially reduced Venom to the Boba Fett of the Marvel Universe-a guy who has an immense following based on a cool outfit.

Carnage, on the other hand, was loads of fun.

 

[[A]]

Well, I haven't seen SM3 in it's entirety yet

I understand. Who wouldn't turn that **** off halfway through?

 

[LightningFlash]

Sam Raimi's kids stole Venom's thunder.

 

[SpeterMan3]

I understand. Who wouldn't turn that **** off halfway through?

Um. Me.

 

[Chris Wallace]

And me.
And I haven't come across anyone who argued that Carnage has more depth than Venom.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

And I'll Make The "And Me" A Trilogy.


And Me

 

[webhead731]

And me...not in the hundreds of times I watched it.

Plus everyone I personally know who saw it...which is alot.

 

[LightningFlash]

You know, if you guys want, I can tell you about two hundred movies that are more enjoyable than Spider-Man 3...

And you can tell your one friend about it webhead.

 

[webhead731]

My one friend?

 

[Ultraman Nexus]

Movie Ock's tentacles-despite being mechanical-had a very organic feel to them. They came across like a living thing. WHich talked to him. And he responded. He was self-righteous & blamed Spider-Man for his ruination (this was downplayed, but still a part of the story) and even referred to himself in the plural. After seeing all this, there really wasn't much left for Venom to bring to the table, was there?

Doc Ock is simply a better character to begin with and if he somehow got some of Venom's mojo in the writing I'd say it's a better place to spend that nickle.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Doc Ock is simply a better character to begin with and if he somehow got some of Venom's mojo in the writing I'd say it's a better place to spend that nickle.

Noone's disputing that. Truth be told, I felt this way 4 years ago.

 

[Chris Wallace]

You know, if you guys want, I can tell you about two hundred movies that are more enjoyable than Spider-Man 3...

And you can tell your one friend about it webhead.

That's it.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

You know, if you guys want, I can tell you about two hundred movies that are more enjoyable than Spider-Man 3...

and i bet i can tell you 200 movies that are more enjoyable than those

 

[webhead731]

lmao! Owned.

 

[Chris Wallace]

DOn't encourage him.

 

[brianbuck]

And me.
And I haven't come across anyone who argued that Carnage has more depth than Venom.

He doesn't. JM DeMatties ridiculous attmepts to make him a sympathetic 'scared little boy' aside. Carnage is a very one dimensional character. But with Carnage, it works. And it works because of what Carnage is all about: murder for fun. Unlike just about any other major comic book villian, Carnage kills for no other reason than the thrill he gets from inflicting pain. Even the Joker usually kills just to get at Batman (although he obviously enjoys it). When Ock or the Goblin are on the loose, Spidey knows he'll probably have some time while they go about their insane plans before innocent people might get hurt. But when Carnage breaks out of confinement innocent people are going to die, period.
I also think Marvel wisely kept Carnage's appearances to a minimum after the Maximum Carnage mess. Overexposure ruined Venom (and Wolverine too).

 

[webhead731]

I don't understand Carnage hate. Like you said, his motives are basic but that's a great thing for his kind of character.

I also don't understand the Maximum Carnage hate, I liked that story alot.