Did Spidey Let ock beat him in the train fight?

[November Rain]

Alright, i understand spidey was tired during the train fight and all but there was no guarantee ock was ever going to reveal mj's whereabout during that bout.

I've started thinking that maybe parker wanted to et beat, get taken back to a secret hideout and bust out mj when he was finally there.

Reasons that suggest this are the way spidey springs to life with his all his strength and fairly untired when he is alone with harry. My guess was that he believed that he was going to go to ock's layer but this was a slight set back and hence it ties in with that last conversation peter and harry have in that film with pete very desperately wanting to know where mj is since his original plan had been sidetracked.

It also explains he still had enough strength to fight in the last scene...

and it would also explain why he didn't simply knock out big time when he had plenty of opportunities to do so (going into a fight to lose would explain why he held back to redicilous extent).

The train may have just simply help put this across and it may have actually fatigued him but i don't think it may have been to the extent we are shown to believe.

I know there is probably enough evidence to go either way with this theory so i've just put it out there for some of you to think about.

 

[The Joker]

Interesting theorey. You make some good points.

But I don't think that was the case. He nearly killed himself when he collapsed with exhaustion after saving the train. If the people hadn't caught him, he'd have been splattered on the street below.

Also, when Ock delivered Spidey to Harry, it was night time. Suggesting some hours have passed since Ock captured him when it was daylight. Perhaps he had recovered alot during that time.

 

[November Rain]

although that does bring into question why ock would stall taking spidey to harry though considering how driven he was.

Killing himself is a little off, none of the passengers made any remarks towards his safety. As for the splattering, even though he was falling from traffic, he's shown greater durability to faller from greater heights within the same film. it seemed like he fainted more than anything.


I still wonder though what spidey would have accomplished simply beating ock during the train fight. So reasoning suggests that without the train stopping, he still probably would have let himself lose.

violence wise he was more brutal during their first encounter at the bank when his aunt's life was in question. I mean he missed with that clock hand at the tower but he could have easily taken out one of ock's arms to incapacitate him if he wanted it done there and then.

this is shown by the 'relative' (and i say that because we'll probably see that scene differently) easy spidey had with ock in the very last scene where spidey only gets tagged once by ock (and it was from behind).


There is no where near enough evidence to support this and it's probably not even what the director's were looking to get out of the scene but there is evidence to suggest there was some possum playing going on.

 

[The Joker]

More food for thought: Peter must have been unconscious when Ock delivered him to Harry because:

-He had no idea Ock was after the tritium when Harry told him, because in the very same scene Ock demanded his tritium from Harry after he laid Spider-Man down. If Peter had been conscious, surely he would have heard and seen this.

-Would Peter really have just lay there and let Harry unmask him, or even approach him with a knife?? You see his head move slightly just before Harry unmasks him, suggesting he was just regaining consciousness.

Regarding some of the other points you made there. Perhaps he believed by defeating Ock, he could reason with him, like the way Ock was knocked off his feet temporarily when he was electrocuted in the final showdown. Peter used that opportunity to reason with him [Though it did help that the reactor was going haywire to help get his point across to Octavius].

 

[Dark Carnage]

If the people hadn't caught him, he'd have been splattered on the street below.

I don't know about that, it wouldn't have been landing on Marshmellows, but no splatting. He fell (thrown) from the train during the fight, while it was moving. He slid across the ground of his back before pulling himself back up. And he didn't seem to sustain anything major.

 

[The Joker]

I don't know about that, it wouldn't have been landing on Marshmellows, but no splatting. He fell (thrown) from the train during the fight, while it was moving. He slid across the ground of his back before pulling himself back up. And he didn't seem to sustain anything major.

Fair enough.

But he still genuinely fainted from exhaustion. He was a little freaked when he woke up and realised where he was and that he had no mask on.

 

[Dark Carnage]

Can't deny that.

 

[November Rain]

More food for thought: Peter must have been unconscious when Ock delivered him to Harry because:

-He had no idea Ock was after the tritium when Harry told him, because in the very same scene Ock demanded his tritium from Harry after he laid Spider-Man down. If Peter had been conscious, surely he would have heard and seen this.

-Would Peter really have just lay there and let Harry unmask him, or even approach him with a knife?? You see his head move slightly just before Harry unmasks him, suggesting he was just regaining consciousness.

Regarding some of the other points you made there. Perhaps he believed by defeating Ock, he could reason with him, like the way Ock was knocked off his feet temporarily when he was electrocuted in the final showdown. Peter used that opportunity to reason with him [Though it did help that the reactor was going haywire to help get his point across to Octavius].

did ock mention the tritium by name, i certainly know he had his back to pete when he pushed harry out of the way and took off with it.

well spidey not getting unmasked by harry wouldn't have gotten him any closer to finding out where his base was, so maybe it was a shock factor parker required to make harry realise he needed info off him to get MJ.

parker's wakeup time would have been too quick, when the mask was off, he knew exactly what was going on and he also knew ock had brought him to harry, so he must have been awake for awhile to clue things together, he wasn't dazed or confused about the scenario he was in.

I've never understood peter's relation to ock, the fallen teacher from grace aspect has never really been used as something peter has really thought about over the years, it certainly wasn't highlighted at all in the film. Based on this, i can't complain about it much really.

 

[The Joker]

did ock mention the tritium by name, i certainly know he had his back to pete when he pushed harry out of the way and took off with it.

Yeah, he did mention it by name. He arrived brandishing Spidey like a trophy above his head and said "Where do you want him??". After he laid him down on the chair, Ock then said "And the tritium??". And he's standing right beside Spidey when he says it.

Peter would have to have been deaf or unconscious not to have heard that.

well spidey not getting unmasked by harry wouldn't have gotten him any closer to finding out where his base was, so maybe it was a shock factor parker required to make harry realise he needed info off him to get MJ.

But if he was really conscious all that time, it would have been easier to simply leap up and follow Ock just after he left, rather than stay and allow himself be unmasked by his friend who hates Spider-Man's guts.

parker's wakeup time would have been too quick, when the mask was off, he knew exactly what was going on and he also knew ock had brought him to harry, so he must have been awake for awhile to clue things together, he wasn't dazed or confused about the scenario he was in.

That's why I said he just regained consciousness when his head moved. The look of shock on his face when the mask came off was not fake IMO. Wish I had a pic of it.

Parker's wake up time would have been too quick if he was a man of ordinary stamina and endurance.

I've never understood peter's relation to ock, the fallen teacher from grace aspect has never really been used as something peter has really thought about over the years, it certainly wasn't highlighted at all in the film. Based on this, i can't complain about it much really.

Octavius wasn't his teacher in the movie. He was a scientific idol to Peter. Someone Peter looked up to and admired as a scientist. Hence why he chose to write a paper on him.

There was a little bit of a mentor relationship when they met, and they spent time chatting about science and love over dinner.

 

[November Rain]

Yeah, he did mention it by name. He arrived brandishing Spidey like a trophy above his head and said "Where do you want him??". After he laid him down on the chair, Ock then said "And the tritium??". And he's standing right beside Spidey when he says it.

Peter would have to have been deaf or unconscious not to have heard that.

Point taken, fair enough

But if he was really conscious all that time, it would have been easier to simply leap up and follow Ock just after he left, rather than stay and allow himself be unmasked by his friend who hates Spider-Man's guts.

well catching film ock off guard is practically impossible, parker failed to get the jump on him at any point during the film, his extra optics made it hard for him to make any sort of ground on him.

that's how i rationalise it because the thought did cross my mind.

That's why I said he just regained consciousness when his head moved. The look of shock on his face when the mask came off was not fake IMO. Wish I had a pic of it.

Parker's wake up time would have been too quick if he was a man of ordinary stamina and endurance.

pete's showed on the morning he first realised his powers that he wakes up just as bemused as everyone else. Although also drugged, he showed he wakes up at normal pace with goblin in the first movie as well as when he wake up on the train after losing conciousness.

based on previous performances, his reactions in that scene if he indeed wake up just before are incredibly quick. He should have been just as quick at the train scene since it would be a similar shock of realising people can see you without your mask on type scenario.

again, that's only how i rationalise it.

spidey 2 used to be on youtube, it's no biggie, i'll try and watch it (or parts of it tomorrow).

Octavius wasn't his teacher in the movie. He was a scientific idol to Peter. Someone Peter looked up to and admired as a scientist. Hence why he chose to write a paper on him.

There was a little bit of a mentor relationship when they met, and they spent time chatting about science and love over dinner.

Alright, he wasn't his teacher in this universe although one can say he's spent more intimate times with him than he would as a teacher, he has been taken into his home and treated as a surrogate son perhaps (alright, i'm stretching, a welcome guest then...)

as spidey or peter, parker never questions ocks motivation or offers help for his condition. That was all i'm looking for but as i said before, it's not mentioned much in the comics, at least in their initial confrontation.

I mean when he found out Norman was the goblin, he questioned his motives by asking him why he killed all those people, just something along those lines. It wouldn't even have to be TO ock, he could just perhaps be defending him (to a student or someone at the bugle) when he hears a rumour about how he killed those surgeons then he comes to the realisation he's gone bad (via headline evidence and also) when he sees him robbing the bank...etc

 

[The Joker]

well catching film ock off guard is practically impossible, parker failed to get the jump on him at any point during the film, his extra optics made it hard for him to make any sort of ground on him.

that's how i rationalise it because the thought did cross my mind.

Not entirely true.

He caught Ock off guard when Ock flung him into the air on the train, and he lept thru the bridge and surprise attacked Ock on the other side, landing on him, and the two of them fell off the top of the train.

pete's showed on the morning he first realised his powers that he wakes up just as bemused as everyone else. Although also drugged, he showed he wakes up at normal pace with goblin in the first movie as well as when he wake up on the train after losing conciousness.

based on previous performances, his reactions in that scene if he indeed wake up just before are incredibly quick. He should have been just as quick at the train scene since it would be a similar shock of realising people can see you without your mask on type scenario.

again, that's only how i rationalise it.

Fair enough. But it still seems obvious that he was unconscious.

But for dramatic emphasis, Raimi had him a bit more alert when he came around to confront Harry.

Alright, he wasn't his teacher in this universe although one can say he's spent more intimate times with him than he would as a teacher, he has been taken into his home and treated as a surrogate son perhaps (alright, i'm stretching, a welcome guest then...)

Not denying that. It was alot like a idol/mentor relationship. Octavius was everything Peter wanted to be. Great scientist with the woman of his dreams.

Raimi always wants there to be some parallel/reflection/connection between Peter and his foes.

as spidey or peter, parker never questions ocks motivation or offers help for his condition. That was all i'm looking for but as i said before, it's not mentioned much in the comics, at least in their initial confrontation.

But he didn't have to question his motivation. Peter knew why Otto was doing what he was doing. He was being influenced by the A.I. tentacles.

As for offering help, as I mentioned above, it was hard to reason with Octavius. The situation they were in at the end of the movie with Ock subdued somewhat, and the reactor going haywire helped Peter reason with Octavius.

I mean when he found out Norman was the goblin, he questioned his motives by asking him why he killed all those people, just something along those lines.

Well, he didn't question him, he just stated what he had done in a accusatory tone.

"You tried to kill Aunt May, you tried to kill MJ".

I don't think Peter knew about the performance enhancers, and their nasty side effects. Whereas with Octavius, he knew about the A.I. in the tentacles, as Otto mentioned it at the demonstration. He had more inside info on Ock than he did on Goblin.

 

[November Rain]

i agree with you on all those points although i would say parker's accusationary tone got the desired effect of wanting norman to explain his actions.

but yeah, we're pretty much on the same page, lil bits here and there but i'd be splitting hairs...

 

[Spider-Girl™]

I see where both of you are coming from. At time it seems like Spidey was letting him win, which brings in the whole "pulling his punches" debate. We've seen Spidey/Pete go ape**** on Goblin and Ock. It didn't seem soo much that Spidey was letting Ock win, it just seemed like he was either holding back or not even trying until the last minute where he flies back through the stained glass window and hammers Ock a couple times. I guess everyone has a different logic as to how certain things played out in this film....personally I think they should have had Spidey focusing on the arms and only landing 1 or 2 punches to Ock's face.

Srry if I sound like a noob, but how often does one get to get into GOOD debates with 2 veteran posters?

 

[Dark Prophet]

As for your theory... Sorry but if it wasn't hinted to be his true actions, then it wasn't. It would be bad writing. Even though it would be cool, there's nothing to suggest Spider-Man was doing a 'fake-out' therefore he doesn't.

 

[Spider-Girl™]

As for your theory... Sorry but if it wasn't hinted to be his true actions, then it wasn't. It would be bad writing. Even though it would be cool, there's nothing to suggest Spider-Man was doing a 'fake-out' therefore he doesn't.

valid point i guess that can be said about alot of things in the movie.

 

[TwilightPro101]

The people or the villian? He had to save the people. Plain and simple.

 

[November Rain]

As for your theory... Sorry but if it wasn't hinted to be his true actions, then it wasn't. It would be bad writing. Even though it would be cool, there's nothing to suggest Spider-Man was doing a 'fake-out' therefore he doesn't.

I realise this which is why i've just left it out there as a new way for people to see things....

even though something is not written in a manner doesn't necessarily mean it can't be interpreted in it.

you'd just have to look at all the homosexual innuendo that has come from batman and robin's relationship over the years to see this.

I'm just throwing stuff out there...

 

[Spider-Girl™]

I realise this which is why i've just left it out there as a new way for people to see things....

even though something is not written in a manner doesn't necessarily mean it can't be interpreted in it.

you'd just have to look at all the homosexual innuendo that has come from batman and robin's relationship over the years to see this.

I'm just throwing stuff out there...

my hero

 

[November Rain]

Spider-Girl, do i Know you in another hype life?

 

[Mr Jide]

Alright, i understand spidey was tired during the train fight and all but there was no guarantee ock was ever going to reveal mj's whereabout during that bout.

I've started thinking that maybe parker wanted to et beat, get taken back to a secret hideout and bust out mj when he was finally there.

Reasons that suggest this are the way spidey springs to life with his all his strength and fairly untired when he is alone with harry. My guess was that he believed that he was going to go to ock's layer but this was a slight set back and hence it ties in with that last conversation peter and harry have in that film with pete very desperately wanting to know where mj is since his original plan had been sidetracked.

It also explains he still had enough strength to fight in the last scene...

and it would also explain why he didn't simply knock out big time when he had plenty of opportunities to do so (going into a fight to lose would explain why he held back to redicilous extent).

The train may have just simply help put this across and it may have actually fatigued him but i don't think it may have been to the extent we are shown to believe.

I know there is probably enough evidence to go either way with this theory so i've just put it out there for some of you to think about.

My question is why Peter would allow himself to be unmasked by Harry if he had all his energy.

 

[November Rain]

i tried to address that earlier in the thread. Doc OCk had already brought it up.

seriously, the thread is less than a page long. you could have seen this if you read the replies before posting.

 

[Spider-Girl™]

Spider-Girl, do i Know you in another hype life?

why? you get that feeling of Deja'Vu? t:

 

[November Rain]

Indeed, wouldn't it be simpler to merely tell me...

PM...

 

[TheCaptain22555]

I'm sure he did let him beat him. He'd sacrifice himself everytime if it meant saving a bunch of innocents from someone.

 

[The Joker]

I'm sure he did let him beat him. He'd sacrifice himself everytime if it meant saving a bunch of innocents from someone.

But he had already saved the train when Ock knocked him out and captured him. The innocents were no longer in danger.

In fact, a bunch of them got themselves hurt by trying to protect Spidey from Ock. Spidey was in no shape to stand up to Ock himself. If he had been, he would have spared them alot of pain.

He's lucky all Ock did was smash them aside rather than kill them.