Discussion: Evolution

[Halcohol]

I can accept that. As long of course that we all keep in mind that there is a reason its called a theory and not a fact. There have been theories that have gone on to be proven and those that have been disproven.

I tend to look at the current model of evolution the same way I look at the current model of how our solar system formed: it works, and it's certainly convincing, but you CANNOT be 100% sure.

Why? Because we haven't witnessed it directly. We haven't seen evolution before our eyes, all we can do is look at the fossil record and extrapolate the current rate of genetic drift.

 

[Kent]

I can accept that. As long of course that we all keep in mind that there is a reason its called a theory and not a fact. There have been theories that have gone on to be proven and those that have been disproven.

No theory has ever been proven. The very nature of science (part of which is tentativity) precludes this.

 

[GarudA]

It is both a Theory and a Fact, which is the same for Gravity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact

 

[ShadowBoxing]

So now evolution is common sense and those who don't accept evolution are devoid of it? What you are devoid of is tolerance. Pretty fanatical and extermist. Sounds like a religion to me.

Not at all. Science wants you to use evidence to back up claims you make and faced with competing evidence it will adapt and change it's theories to fit...kind of like how Darwin's Evolution is not the theory of Evolution supported today, or how Newton's Theory of Gravity is obsolete as far as modern standards are concerned, or how Einstien's theories are gradually being adapted into modern String Theory and other theories that are not necessarily like his.

Science unlike Religion doesn't deal in absolutes. Scientists are never 100% sure of anything, they merely use common sense to make sense of the world around them. Ya'know kind of like people did 2000 years ago (with the very little information they had comparitively) when the wrote the Bible, yet those people put a stop to prophecy thus creating an unchanging, solid document that somehow still is heralded is truth (which isn't even correct since it's not a post-enlightenment book and therefore not written with the concept of "fact v. myth" in mind).

By the way, I'm still waiting for the link of the headlines that state Evolution is no longer a theory.

And I am still waiting for the headline "God is correct" or "God is real". Because the former headline "God is Correct" came in the reverse about 1500 years ago when the Church commission scientists to study the stars and re-enforce the Earth was the center. Low and behold turned out to be fools in the eyes of the world when they were proven very wrong...and that whole "The Earth was set on it's foundations and the heavens set in motion around it" was scripture. Pity.

That would help support your "common sense" comment.

No, what making it "the Law of Evolution" isn't making it common sense. Are you so blind to studying and reading evidence that something needs to be solidified as is for you to believe it. Would it help improve any of your misconceptions, I doubt it. If anything you'd probably rail the same complaints against science.

While it isn't a law (and never will be for reasons you seem to fail to grasp) it is very very very very very X 1000 well supported, reasoned, tested, observed and any other term I can think of.

"Just a Theory" is a cop out, and it shows a vast misunderstanding and stupidity on the part of anyone who says that. While it's a correct statement it's in effect the same thing as saying what an Airplane and Car operates on is "Just a Theory", or what we base our NASA technology on is "just theories". Theories are very powerful things. They need to be strongly strongly backed up by tangible and reasonable evidence, testable, repeatable, falsifiable and corrigatable to other theories and laws. All of these things Religion fails to do completely. You cannot just pull a theory out of your butt, and they are very much "common sense" because they prevent you from making the wild and unprovable claims you'd find in say...religious literalism.

 

[Spider-Bite]

So, you are telling me that Darwin's theory of evolution has been proven? That's it is no longer a theory? This had to have been major front page news! However I seemed to have missed it.

Please proven a least one link of this earth shattering announcement.

I see a bunch of different but similar skulls pictured but I'm still waiting for the proof that each one is modern man's ancestor and not just a separate primate species or even a race of homosapiens that just died out.

dude you are not a paleontologist. It's extremely obvious that these are ancestors. You think it's a coincedence that they just so happen to gradually change from ape to man? Compare them to ape skulls. Comare Lucy to a chimp. The face got flatter and the ears got lower. Walks on two legs, but has short legs like a chimp, and long arms like a chimp. It was essentially a chimp, that walked on two legs, with a flatter face, and lower ears.

 

[souloffire]

If man came from the chimp then where did the chimp come from?

 

[Carcharodon]

Call it what you will. I gave some of the reasons why I don't buy it, and its up to whoever reads it to either ponder on it or dismiss it.

Now if you are so afraid that you may lose followers of your religion based on what I posted, then knock yourself out.

I for one, rejects Darwin's theory of man and apes having a common ancestor, so don't bother with trying to convert me.

You mutilated the context.

 

[Carcharodon]

Guys, stop. Raybia sees what he wants to see among the multitudes of evidence we've presented for him and the documented corrections we've made of him. It's clear this will go nowhere with him.

He refuses to acknowledge new evidence and selectively acknowledges evidence that, "benefits," his argument...regardless of context or fallability. For instance, he said that the existence of DNA proves evolution false, while anybody with a solid background in biology knows that just the opposite is true (see Miller's Experiment, read up on mutation as a source for genetic diversity).

 

[mightiest_mortal]

And the Nobel Prize goes to.....

If man came from the chimp then where did the chimp come from?

I cant believe this thread is still going

 

[Halcohol]

Guys, stop. Raybia sees what he wants to see among the multitudes of evidence we've presented for him and the documented corrections we've made of him. It's clear this will go nowhere with him.

He refuses to acknowledge new evidence and selectively acknowledges evidence that, "benefits," his argument...regardless of context or fallability. For instance, he said that the existence of DNA proves evolution false, while anybody with a solid background in biology knows that just the opposite is true (see Miller's Experiment, read up on mutation as a source for genetic diversity).

Wtf did you expect to happen? That he'd cave, break down sobbing, admit his error, and fall to his knees begging forgiveness?



Puh-lease. I don't understand how anybody ever expects to "convert" someone simply by arguing with them on the Internet. Let him have his beliefs, it doesn't have any effect on you.

 

[Carcharodon]

If man came from the chimp then where did the chimp come from?

An earlier, presumably primate ancestor. The lineage then continues back to a common ancestor of the primates, and further goes back to the first small, rodent-like mammals (I'm ignoring the other branches, in this case, simply going back). Mammals are traced back to the later, smaller reptiles (about at the time of the rise of the dinosaurs, or into their reign). Prior to the reptiles (which also branched off into birds), amphibians. Prior to amphibians, fish which were presumably shallow-water dwelling and which had begun to develop small, leg-like appendages and even early lungs (no doubt due to dry/wet seasons).

Note: these fish didn't die out. We see them today; African Lung-Fishes. You can see one at the Oregon Zoo. They, too, have small, leg-like appendages. I love how this one example flies in the face of Raybia's argument, almost in its entirety.

To continue: it goes back, and back, and back. The reason there are such great gaps in the fossil record is this: it takes certain specific conditions in order to create a fossil. The composition of an animal's skeleton, where it dies and at what time it dies all contribute to its fossilization. Usually, dying near or in water is the ideal scenario. I suggest that people read up on this, it's really quite fascinating.

 

[Carcharodon]

Wtf did you expect to happen? That he'd cave, break down sobbing, admit his error, and fall to his knees begging forgiveness?



Puh-lease. I don't understand how anybody ever expects to "convert" someone simply by arguing with them on the Internet. Let him have his beliefs, it doesn't have any effect on you.

Go back to about page 4, 5 and 6, and keep reading from there. Seriously, read my posts. I'm all for him having his beliefs.

Unless you've read all my posts in this thread, **** you and the high horse you came in on. I was simply commenting on his ability to process new information, not his willingness to, "convert." There's nothing wrong with his beliefs.

Seriously, **** you.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

If man came from the chimp then where did the chimp come from?

Check further down the evoultionary tree,they came from rodents that surived the meteor impact that killed the Dinosaurs.

Why do people still refuse to accept this?Is there religious reasons?Humans are not special from any other animal.

 

[mightiest_mortal]

Meh... See, this is what I mean when I say that people shouldn't be allowed to have their own beliefs, especially when theyre daft ones. It causes FAR too much arguing and violence.

 

[Halcohol]

Meh... See, this is what I mean when I say that people shouldn't be allowed to have their own beliefs, especially when theyre daft ones. It causes FAR too much arguing and violence.

And to think all I was trying to do was keep things civil by pointing out that nothing will get accomplished in these threads.

Ever.

 

[Carcharodon]

Meh... See, this is what I mean when I say that people shouldn't be allowed to have their own beliefs, especially when theyre daft ones. It causes FAR too much arguing and violence.

Yeah. Let's convert everybody to Buddhism.

 

[Carcharodon]

And to think all I was trying to do was keep things civil by pointing out that nothing will get accomplished in these threads.

Ever.

You were commenting on something you knew absolutely nothing about; about my motivations, specifically.

You came into a thread and didn't read it in its entirety and felt it necessary to make a sarcastic comment.

Go read my posts. It's your punishment. Enlighten yourself.

 

[Halcohol]

You were commenting on something you knew absolutely nothing about; about my motivations, specifically.

You came into a thread and didn't read it in its entirety and felt it necessary to make a sarcastic comment.

Go read my posts. It's your punishment. Enlighten yourself.

Perhaps you should simply answer the question. What DO you expect to happen in this discussion?

 

[mightiest_mortal]

Everyone to agree that their views really are nonsense, then we can all hold hands around the world and sing songs about Peace

 

[Halcohol]

Everyone to agree that their views really are nonsense, then we can all hold hands around the world and sing songs about Peace

That's probably a bad idea. We wouldn't want Michael Jackson showing up.

 

[Carcharodon]

Perhaps you should simply answer the question. What DO you expect to happen in this discussion?

Your question seemed pretty rhetorical to me, especially considering your follow-up.

I didn't expect anything to happen. Hence the reason I told people to discontinue it.

My initial involvement was to show that evolution is, by scientific definition, a theory. I went on to say that evolution and a sense of faith are NOT mutually exclusive; most people refuse to acknowledge that. That was around pages 4 to 10.

Then I merely proceeded to attempt to correct the false statements made by certain people regarding the process of evolution...Raybia among them. I never expected him to, "convert," or anything nearly that ridiculous, because I believe his faith is valid. His support for his opinion on evolution, however, is based on false ground.

When showed this, he refused to acknowledge it. It was a waste of time and effort to address him specifically on the issue, as many were doing, so I told them to stop.

I never expected to make people fully believe in the theory of evolution, nor abandon their faith. If you'd read my posts prior, you'd have known that. I made it painstakingly clear previously that I respect faith, hence my irritation at your post. Sorry I lost my head a bit, though.

 

[Carcharodon]

That's probably a bad idea. We wouldn't want Michael Jackson showing up.

I don't know what would be worse...the gloved-hand or the non-gloved hand.

 

[Halcohol]

Your question seemed pretty rhetorical to me, especially considering your follow-up.

I didn't expect anything to happen. Hence the reason I told people to discontinue it.

My initial involvement was to show that evolution is, by scientific definition, a theory. I went on to say that evolution and a sense of faith are NOT mutually exclusive; most people refuse to acknowledge that. That was around pages 4 to 10.

Then I merely proceeded to attempt to correct the false statements made by certain people regarding the process of evolution...Raybia among them. I never expected him to, "convert," or anything nearly that ridiculous, because I believe his faith is valid. His support for his opinion on evolution, however, is based on false ground.

When showed this, he refused to acknowledge it. It was a waste of time and effort to address him specifically on the issue, as many were doing, so I told them to stop.

I never expected to make people fully believe in the theory of evolution, nor abandon their faith. If you'd read my posts prior, you'd have known that. I made it painstakingly clear previously that I respect faith, hence my irritation at your post. Sorry I lost my head a bit, though.

I read your posts. I've been with this thread for a while just waiting to see how long it would take to die/get closed. Don't worry about it; I was being an ass anyways. My apologies.

 

[Carcharodon]

I read your posts. I've been with this thread for a while just waiting to see how long it would take to die/get closed.

Don't worry about it; I was being an ass anyways.

Yeah...we should probably just let this thread die.

Another one will be along shortly anyways.

 

[Halcohol]

I don't know what would be worse...the gloved-hand or the non-gloved hand.

That makes Little Timmy scared.

Yeah...we should probably just let this thread die.

Another one will be along shortly anyways.

I should start taking bets about what the next topic will be. Abortion, maybe?