Discussion: Evolution

[Angry Sentinel]

I have to admit.

I'm bored.
I wasn't even going to respond to this thread anymore because frankly.
it's dumb.it's a dumb debate.
for the benefit of everyone, Siva misrepresented his stance.
evolution is NOT fact. it's a theory.
creationism is NOT a theory, it's a neat little story.
you know why? because the people that believe in it get awful selective when it's convenient.
why do I say this? am I being callous? Is my evil heathen/atheist/agnostic heart beating with the insolence only those that haven't taken the 4 minutes that watching Spider-who?'s ubber stupid video are known to have?

no.
it's as follows.
the theory of evolution is based upon the observation of the natural process and also the anatomic adaptations as well as the adpations of OTHER aspects of a given living organism when in an environment.
now this, for some reason gets the creationists dander up.
I have no idea why they'd rather have such a mindblowiingly simplistic god rather than one that being omnipotent/omnipresent and eternal can afford to spend a few billion years waiting for his creation to come to frution.
no, he did it in a week.
and got tired doing it.
God....god! got "tuckered out"making the universe.now, this is infact an unfortunate series of events that has brought us to question Evolution as a theory and accept the possibility that we were made out of clay.
now, how does this relate to the post I quoted.
see...the idea that the kneecap is somehow evidence of divine creation because of it's uniqueness then...please explain the following.

why DO we need kneecaps anyway?

seems to me that since god created everything and is in control of everything , like gravity (intelligent falling anyone?) the whole system of bones, miles of veins a heart, DNA, and stuff like that seem a little dumb.

I mean, what's the point? seriously?
why would god create something so intricate in everybeing when we could all just be filled with Pixie dust?I mean, to some people It might indicate that if indeed there is a creator he might be working in somewhat of a grander scale than what we could fathom, something more like evolution, and less like pottery class.
but then, that's just me, maybe.....
key fact though, Monkeys and Primates are not exactly the same thing.
just so we're all clear.
I think that should be you know? Important.
for that matter why would god create people with mental disabilities? how do they fit in his perfect creation? since we are made in his image, is god slightly asian looking?
perhaps.
also, if we all come from adam and eve, could someone explain Races to me?
what are their use in god's plan? because seems that race is pretty useless unless god's mean and was just looking for ways for people to get upset with each other.
oh, while you're explaining race to me, mind explaining viruses and sickness as well? (since they mutate and seem to ....evolve , evey once in a while)
is that god's "population control" If so, are vaccines an abomination unto the lord?
just wondering.
oh, and what is perhaps to me the greatest hypocrisy.
why is science only the right way when you guys get sick?
that one I never seem to get, you know, I hear all this big talk from creationists, but I'm sure if they felt sick they'd be on their way to their doctors and not their priests.
so...yeah...if science is sooo unproven, why is that? just, you know? pray the sickness away.

again, just wondering is all.

Come on Sparkle, you know very well that this debate isn't silly JUST because several million masses choose to believe SOLELY in creationism. We all believe in what we believe, no amount of 'discussion' will change that FACT. The real problem is that most of the people posting here are not interested in attaining a better understanding of the opposing view points(which is what a REAL discussion is about). However, they are simply posting in an attempt to either berrate someone elses views(points at you) or change them.

Having said that, your point about the knee caps was well made. However, the rest of your questioning is a little peculiar to me. I am under the impression that you have knowledge of the bible, and therefore would know full well that there are plenty of 'stories' explaining all the rest of those questions.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Come on Sparkle, you know very well that this debate isn't silly JUST because several million masses choose to believe SOLELY in creationism. We all believe in what we believe, no amount of 'discussion' will change that FACT. The real problem is that most of the people posting here are not interested in attaining a better understanding of the opposing view points(which is what a REAL discussion is about). However, they are simply posting in an attempt to either berrate someone elses views(points at you) or change them.

Having said that, your point about the knee caps was well made. However, the rest of your questioning is a little peculiar to me. I am under the impression that you have knowledge of the bible, and therefore would know full well that there are plenty of 'stories' explaining all the rest of those questions.

yes, I have full knowledge of the bible.
and these "explanations" are not given but interpreted
if you call questioning a very improbable standpoint "berating" you seriously need to grow up.
and this debate IS silly, it's THE SINGLE SILLIEST DEBATE EVER.
once many people, millions of people even, believed (like the many religious people now) that there were several gods and goddesses (in fact many people still do...like the Hindus) I fail to see how anyone's belief can be taken as fact over...you know, scientific observation.

so, yeah, impossibly, bombastically silly.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

seriously? no. because you cant even give an adquate response to my post(s) concerning your original comment. but then again, it doesnt matter, everyone is intitled to their opinion, regardless of how much grey matter lies between their ears. good for you, you can think (alittle anyway), you're better off then some

you never answered anything besides how hurt you were

 

[Hotwire]

I have to admit, I feel that eveloution is part of creation. When I look at the things the human body can do, I can't help but think that some higher power designed it. On the other hand, when I see how different animals of the same basic species have adaptted to their environments, I can't help but see evolution at work.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

yes, I have full knowledge of the bible.
and these "explanations" are not given but interpreted

That still doesn't explain your 'questioning' which inferred that they don't exist at all. If I'm wrong about the inferrence then my 'bad'.

if you call questioning a very improbable standpoint "berating" you seriously need to grow up.

Berating is fine, but when it's done under the 'guise' of meaningful discussion that's... well that's just wrong

and this debate IS silly, it's THE SINGLE SILLIEST DEBATE EVER.
once many people, millions of people even, believed (like the many religious people now) that there were several gods and goddesses (in fact many people still do...like the Hindus) I fail to see how anyone's belief can be taken as fact over...you know, scientific observation.

so, yeah, impossibly, bombastically silly

Discussing an idea because you believe it to be the silliest thing EVER, is not SILLY at all. It's probably the best time and reason for a discussion. 'Debating' an idea with the purpose of berating or changing the others' beliefs is not just a debate... it's a called running for political office.

 

[chaseter]

Thats what evolution is. Adaption. Adaption to continue the survival of a species. Evolution. Evolve or Die.

Adaptation is not as drastic as evolution. Evolution phases out a useless species. Adaptation is purely niche related. That is why people in the Himalayas haven't evolved into hair covered men. They do have bigger hearts, but that is purely an adaptation to a certain environment. If men were to evolve, the ones left behind would be phased out because they are not dominant or usefull anymore.

 

[raybia]

That still doesn't explain your 'questioning' which inferred that they don't exist at all. If I'm wrong about the inferrence then my 'bad'.

Berating is fine, but when it's done under the 'guise' of meaningful discussion that's... well that's just wrong

Discussing an idea because you believe it to be the silliest thing EVER, is not SILLY at all. It's probably the best time and reason for a discussion. 'Debating' an idea with the purpose of berating or changing the others' beliefs is not just a debate... it's a called running for political office.

What an intellegent and witty post! Me likes!

 

[Spiderine]

If we are continuing to evolve, what are we evolving into?

 

[Mr Sparkle]

That still doesn't explain your 'questioning' which inferred that they don't exist at all. If I'm wrong about the inferrence then my 'bad'.

actually, I'm not "inferring" anything.
I asked a question.
the answer shouldn't be "go look at the bible" the answer should be...well, and answer.
simple as that.
say, how about this, since the answer is in the bible and you seem familiar with it, how about you adress my questions one by one, mind you, Interpretation is OUT OF THE QUESTION.
just, you know.
answer.

Berating is fine, but when it's done under the 'guise' of meaningful discussion that's... well that's just wrong

I don't expect to have any meaningful discussion about this, as I wouldn't expect to have a meaningful discussion with people that believe that everyday a dragon swallows the sun.
I'm pointing out interesting facts.
if you consider that berating so be it.
I do find it interesting however that your answers to me have been about the intent of my post and my general attitude towards the debate rather than answering the questions and points raised.

Discussing an idea because you believe it to be the silliest thing EVER, is not SILLY at all. It's probably the best time and reason for a discussion. 'Debating' an idea with the purpose of berating or changing the others' beliefs is not just a debate... it's a called running for political office.

No, actually it's not.
there's a website called stormfront.
there people believe that all races aside from the white race are inferior.
I find that silly.
I don't want to debate them because they have no evidence to their claims.

Just belief.

you can't debate belief because when you have fact, debating someone whose only defense is that "he believes" something and desperately points to some selective situations to make his case is not only fruitless.

it's..again..dumb.

I invite you to answer the questions in my original post, since it seems you're so familiar with the answers.
again. I beg you not to inject the old standby " what god meant to say here was...." I want answers to my questions.

simple.

 

[raybia]

If we are continuing to evolve, what are we evolving into?

Ahh! Its a surprise. But I will say this, whatever it is, it will be what is in our potential to be. In other words, mankind as we see it is not the finished product.

To evolve means to keep going up, to keep growing, developing and progressing. When an apple seed or a peach seed, etc. is planted, it has the potential to become a peach tree. Humans have been planted on the earth to so time will tell what we will become. Whatever it is, it will be good, natural, productive, and a benefit.

 

[Mr Jide]

If we are continuing to evolve, what are we evolving into?

supersaiyans

 

[Canadian Rider]

Sparkle.

God made the heavens and earth and all that it within them. It took six days. It says in scripture that to God a day can be as a thousand years or ten thousand years. He ordered the creation and then stopped.

To say he rested from his effort is not actually what the scriptures say. They indicate that he stopped. Rested from creation because he was finished. All that needed to be made was made.

He asked us to keep that "7th" day holy to show that as he finished creation, so we should rest and reflect on what he did ... each week, one day.

The reason I asked about the knee cap. Stand up. Reach down and notice that your knee locks because of that one bone. The bone is there to fit the upper and lower parts of your leg together. Why is it so important? We (mankind) could not reach up, stand up or do any of the amazing things we do as a biped without it.

You can find lots of fossils that kept Vestigial limbs, but to have that one bone in your leg requires the complete restructuring of you knee, leg bones, muscles etc.

While I can see adaptations galore in science, I do not see a creature that completely redesigns it's legs ... with fossil evidence to show the amazing changes that would have taken place.

I love how we as followers of Christ as said to have a faith and that we are simple in what we believe, yet when an issue such as this is raised ...

"It evolved." No evidence. No supporting changes shown in any structure of any fossil to provide the slightest trace of the appearance of the single bone that causes a complete redesign of the leg ...

That's why it is so important. In the end ... you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Sparkle.

God made the heavens and earth and all that it within them. It took six days. It says in scripture that to God a day can be as a thousand years or ten thousand years. He ordered the creation and then stopped.

To say he rested from his effort is not actually what the scriptures say. They indicate that he stopped. Rested from creation because he was finished. All that needed to be made was made.

He asked us to keep that "7th" day holy to show that as he finished creation, so we should rest and reflect on what he did ... each week, one day.

The reason I asked about the knee cap. Stand up. Reach down and notice that your knee locks because of that one bone. The bone is there to fit the upper and lower parts of your leg together. Why is it so important? We (mankind) could not reach up, stand up or do any of the amazing things we do as a biped without it.

You can find lots of fossils that kept Vestigial limbs, but to have that one bone in your leg requires the complete restructuring of you knee, leg bones, muscles etc.

While I can see adaptations galore in science, I do not see a creature that completely redesigns it's legs ... with fossil evidence to show the amazing changes that would have taken place.

I love how we as followers of Christ as said to have a faith and that we are simple in what we believe, yet when an issue such as this is raised ...

"It evolved." No evidence. No supporting changes shown in any structure of any fossil to provide the slightest trace of the appearance of the single bone that causes a complete redesign of the leg ...

That's why it is so important. In the end ... you don't have a leg to stand on.

LOL, seriously.
that's your argument?
that's where your argument resides?
there's been a lot of evidence presented on the side of evolution (being that it's a scientific theory) and none presented on the side of creationism.

seriously now.

you keep talking about a complete "redesign" of the leg.
dude, evolution is based on the complete "redesign" of EVERYTHING.
every single living organism has had adaption since the beginning of life
on earth, ALL of the animals alive today (and some of the viruses) have gone though this "complete redesign"

I mean c'mon now, it's sad that you even threw in that "leg to stand on" joke at the end, it's like a textbook creationist argument.

again, I'd like to see someone explain the NEED for it.
if god controls it why do we need a knee anyway?

oh and the bible thing said somethign like "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

so, are we not caught up on interpretation again?

oh, and "vestigial limbs" should be an abomination unto the lord.
means that his creation wasn't perfect.
unless...uh...evolution is part of his plan.
that's my belief, but...you guys, you want to come from people.
incestuous, incestuous people.

 

[Canadian Rider]

or that matter why would god create people with mental disabilities? how do they fit in his perfect creation? since we are made in his image, is god slightly asian looking?
perhaps.

The result of time and having a DNA structure that is amazingly complex -- why do we have changes to his original design? He created Adam and Eve. The offspring of those two were the result of his design, but the impact of recessive and dominant genes, bloodwork and the effect of environmental factors and time did the rest. As for those with Mental Disabilities or Physical Disabilities, we are the ones who created those labels. He loves us all the same.

also, if we all come from adam and eve, could someone explain Races to me?

The current Science indicates that all mankind came from one woman. The National Geographic has several articles about it. If a woman gave birth to three boys, all three would/could/usually have differences. Take those and wait a few thousand generations and see what the impact of where you live, what you eat and how much sun you are exposed to, along with the Gene changes inherent in different people having children. It doesn't take that long to end up with groups that are radically different. If you consider the asian population, you will see variances from East Indian to Japanese to Korean ... and that is one relatively small area of the world.

what are their use in god's plan? because seems that race is pretty useless unless god's mean and was just looking for ways for people to get upset with each other.

God looks at the heart brother. Not the skin. Don't blame him for man's weakness, racism and hatred.

oh, while you're explaining race to me, mind explaining viruses and sickness as well? (since they mutate and seem to ....evolve , evey once in a while)

Germs/Viruses and the common cold/flu are all micro-organisms that mutate and adapt. I think that saying they "evolve" is inaccurate. They meet antibiotics and mutate to survive. They have been around for a long time and will continue to survive. That is their makeup and how they "adapt".

is that god's "population control" If so, are vaccines an abomination unto the lord?
just wondering.

I find it interesting that because someone says they follow Christ, that somehow means they must give up the use of medicine or science. Many inventions were created by Christians, and many Christians are scientists. I know many Christians who believe in Evolution and some who don't. The belief that God created the universe does not preclude someone from discussing the science of this world, or the "advances" that medicine makes to fight/cure diseases. I know many who use medicine and prayer together to effectively try and deal with sickness.

oh, and what is perhaps to me the greatest hypocrisy.
why is science only the right way when you guys get sick?

I love science. The thing about science is that it can be like the Bible in some ways. When you get a series of results, one can interpret what they mean.
For me, the issue with Science is that in this day of enlightment we seem quick to say what a result means in light of what we want it to support, as opposed to saying this is what it is and this is what it could mean.

As I noted above, many Christians are active in the scientific community. As I said above, they perhaps have an issue with how a discovery is reported.

For me, looking at the images from Hubble, or discussing the latest thoughts on the speed of light are great. The "problem" is what Scientists say with certainty ... that perhaps is not so certain. Like the speed of light, why bumblebees fly and how it is that water has the opposite properties to what we think it should, and yet those properties allow us to have icecubes that float and something to drink.

that one I never seem to get, you know, I hear all this big talk from creationists, but I'm sure if they felt sick they'd be on their way to their doctors and not their priests.
so...yeah...if science is sooo unproven, why is that? just, you know? pray the sickness away.

I doubt that someone has argued that science is unproven. The "fact" of evolution is what is being debated.

 

[Mr Jide]

Canadian rider, my friend, you have the patience that I lack.

 

[Canadian Rider]

LOL, seriously.
that's your argument?
that's where your argument resides?
there's been a lot of evidence presented on the side of evolution (being that it's a scientific theory) and none presented on the side of creationism.

seriously now.

you keep talking about a complete "redesign" of the leg.
dude, evolution is based on the complete "redesign" of EVERYTHING.
every single living organism has had adaption since the beginning of life
on earth, ALL of the animals alive today (and some of the viruses) have gone though this "complete redesign"

I mean c'mon now, it's sad that you even threw in that "leg to stand on" joke at the end, it's like a textbook creationist argument.

again, I'd like to see someone explain the NEED for it.
if god controls it why do we need a knee anyway?

oh and the bible thing said somethign like "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

so, are we not caught up on interpretation again?

oh, and "vestigial limbs" should be an abomination unto the lord.
means that his creation wasn't perfect.
unless...uh...evolution is part of his plan.
that's my belief, but...you guys, you want to come from people.
incestuous, incestuous people.

Nice try sparkle. But the complete redesign is not evolutionary. It is by definition a small change that occurs and allows the creature to "evolve" and survive. If you can't see the advantage of standing upright over being hunched over, I suggest you visit a factory where parts are made, where people stand to lay bricks on a building, how a plumber reaches above his head and fastens pipes with his wrench ... while standing upright.

We are not talking about a minor shift Sparkle. We are talking the entire structure is redesigned. While some may argue that Dinosaurs went to Birds ... they can find the parts to support part of the theory. The lack of any evidence whatsoever on the ape to man leg transition??

Who has a faith now?

The translation from Hebrew to English is very interesting and complex ... NIV

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work.

Footnotes:

1. Genesis 2:2 Or ceased ; also in verse

KJV

2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

NKJV

2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

But I like the Message best ...

2-4 By the seventh day
God had finished his work.
On the seventh day
he rested from all his work.
God blessed the seventh day.
He made it a Holy Day
Because on that day he rested from his work,
all the creating God had done.

This is the story of how it all started,
of Heaven and Earth when they were created.

 

[Canadian Rider]

oh, and "vestigial limbs" should be an abomination unto the lord.
means that his creation wasn't perfect.
unless...uh...evolution is part of his plan.
that's my belief, but...you guys, you want to come from people.
incestuous, incestuous people.

Vestigial limbs are leftover from when an Animal existed in one form and "adapted" over time. The limbs purpose changed much as our small toe has. The thing is they remained ... not appeared.

His plan is still being worked out and if you want to ask God about his plan, read the Bible from cover to cover and you can see what he has said, why he did what he did, why he brought the animals to Noah (since he couldn't collect them all ) and how he knew that Adam and Eve, both, would disobey him and get sent out for eating from the tree of life.

That same tree shows up again in the plan in revelation. You should read Rev. 19-21 and see how it all comes together.

And the animals are there, Vestigial limbs and all.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

uh... couple of things.
you never point out how come god's perfect design becomes imperfect.
It'll sound un-p.c. but people with mental and physical disabilities are ...uh...
you know, disabled.
so, my original question is kind of unanswered.

on and again with the second answer.
you are pretty much saying that god's creation is imperfect.
since ..uh...it has to adapt ( this is by your standards not mine, I think evolution is super neato-keen)

oh, and you shouldn't look at the huble telescope since god put the stars in the firmament for astrologers, so they could use it for signs and stuff.
it's just not pretty to look at, there's a plan.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Nice try sparkle. But the complete redesign is not evolutionary. It is by definition a small change that occurs and allows the creature to "evolve" and survive. If you can't see the advantage of standing upright over being hunched over, I suggest you visit a factory where parts are made, where people stand to lay bricks on a building, how a plumber reaches above his head and fastens pipes with his wrench ... while standing upright.

LOL...what does this mean.
sorry man I think you are misunderstanding the question.
I never asked about the advantage of standing upright.
I asked why we need to have a complex structure since pretty much the power of god could compel us to stand upright.

We are not talking about a minor shift Sparkle. We are talking the entire structure is redesigned. While some may argue that Dinosaurs went to Birds ... they can find the parts to support part of the theory. The lack of any evidence whatsoever on the ape to man leg transition??

Ah, but again.
apes are all primates but primates are not all apes.
missing link and all.
so, then, this means that to you all the ancestors of man according to evolution are just extinct animals?
extinct animals that had complex societal structures, used tools and such.
because that's what I don't get.
you say that "there's no evidence" for evolution when it's all around you.
but you ask me to see this evidence and interpret it as the glory of the lord?
please.
why so selective?

Who has a faith now?

The translation from Hebrew to English is very interesting and complex ... NIV

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work.

Footnotes:

1. Genesis 2:2 Or ceased ; also in verse

KJV

2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

NKJV

2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

But I like the Message best ...

2-4 By the seventh day
God had finished his work.
On the seventh day
he rested from all his work.
God blessed the seventh day.
He made it a Holy Day
Because on that day he rested from his work,
all the creating God had done.

This is the story of how it all started,
of Heaven and Earth when they were created.

oh, and fancy that..it looks exactly like what I said
plus, his days seem to be "days" no thousands of years, since he blesses the seventh day (unless he is blessing the indeterminate amount of thousands of years)

see?

this is why think this discussion is silly.
your entire argument is that the human knee is so super-awesome that god MUST have done it.
it weird since it sounds like a beneficial adaptation.
but I'm sure somewhere there's a creationist platypus talking to his platypus brethren about how they are so freaking awesome (duck billed, they lay eggs , are poisonous etc.) that it must the Platypus God hand at work.

meh.

 

[Canadian Rider]

His design was perfect for the environment it was created for -- the Garden. Having been cast out, the effects of time, radiation and the world in which we live has an impact.

I can have a perfect item that is corrupted by an outside force. That does not mean it was imperfect to begin with.

God put the stars in the sky to give us light at night, but we can certainly enjoy his creation.

 

[jaguarr]

jag

 

[Canadian Rider]

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

no...his design is perfect, and god knew that man was to be cast out of Eden.
sorry.
unless you think this took god by surprise it's really not an argument.
and actually god created a "solid" firmament to separate the "lower waters from the upper" or some such nonsense.

 

[Canadian Rider]

Just chatting Jag. Just chatting.

CR.

 

[jaguarr]

Just chatting Jag. Just chatting.

CR.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster loves you, Canadian Rider.

jag