Discussion: Global Warming, Emission Standards, and Other Environmental Issues

What is your opinion of climate change?

  • Yes it is real and humanity is causing it.

  • Yes it is real but part of a natural cycle.

  • It is real but is both man made and a natural cycle.

  • It's a complete scam made to make money.

  • I dont know or care.

  • Yes it is real and humanity is causing it.

  • Yes it is real but part of a natural cycle.

  • It is real but is both man made and a natural cycle.

  • It's a complete scam made to make money.

  • I dont know or care.


Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Don't worry, guys, global warming is fake and will never impact the Earth negatively because this guy:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-wont-destroy-planet-God-promised-Noah.html

says god wouldn't allow that :whatever:And this guy is a congressman. Get your **** together, America.
Too much religion on both sides. I would love to ask that guy if he believes "man's sins will doom the planet". He believes the same thing...only it's his "god" which will destroy us. Same message.

New study about melting ice in Greenland and how heat from the Earth's core is a factor which has been ignored.
Greenland ice sheet IS melting but much of the heating is coming from INSIDE the earth
  • Study suggests melting in an area is due to composition of Earth's mantle
  • The IceGeoHeat team claims they produced more accurate forecasts by adding their new findings to earlier models on climate change

Ice in Greenland is melting partly because of heat from the Earth's mantle, according to a team of international researchers.
The group claims that they are the first to find a connection between melting of the Greenland ice sheet and the high heat flow from the Earth’s mantle.
The findings, they suggest, could have implications for future predictions on climate change and the reasons behind ice melt in the region.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...at-INSIDE-Earth-melting-areas-Arctic-ice.html

Blog post from climate scientist Tamsin Edwards about how she is bothered by the political advocacy attitude of many in her field.

Climate scientists must not advocate particular policies


As a climate scientist, I'm under pressure to be a political advocate. This comes mainly from environmentalists. Dan Cass, wind-farm director and solar advocate, preferred me not to waste my time debating "denialist morons" but to use political advocacy to "prevent climate catastrophe".

Jeremy Grantham, environmental philanthropist, urged climate scientists to sound a "more desperate note … Be arrested if necessary." A concerned member of the public judged my efforts at public engagement successful only if they showed "evidence of persuasion".

Others ask "what should we do?" At my Cheltenham Science Festival event Can we trust climate models? one of the audience asked what we thought of carbon taxes. I refused to answer, despite the chair's repeated requests and joke (patronisingly; his aim was to entertain) that I "shouldn't be embarrassed at my lack of knowledge".

Even some of my colleagues think I should be clearer about my political beliefs. In a Twitter debate last month Gavin Schmidt, climate scientist and blogger, argued we should state our preferences to avoid accusations of having a hidden agenda.

I believe advocacy by climate scientists has damaged trust in the science. We risk our credibility, our reputation for objectivity, if we are not absolutely neutral. At the very least, it leaves us open to criticism. I find much climate scepticism is driven by a belief that environmental activism has influenced how scientists gather and interpret evidence. So I've found my hardline approach successful in taking the politics and therefore – pun intended – the heat out of climate science discussions.

This part interested me.
I became a climate scientist because I care about the environment, but we have a moral obligation to be impartial
I find it odd that this would be a reason to take up a particular field of science. Do scientists in other fields have reasons like that for deciding to pursue it? It's a perfect illustration of how political climate science has become over the years. I definitely get the impression from other climate scientists that they have the same reason for their career choice. She managed to remain impartial, others have not. People like James Hansen, Phil Jones, and Michael Mann often sound like members of Greenpeace or worse. And I don't trust a crusader.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/political-science/2013/jul/31/climate-scientists-policies
 
Didn't know where else to put this. But it's really cool and I wanted to share:

http://www.treehugger.com/urban-des...bsorbs-150-200-times-more-co2-tree-video.html
I like that. Power from algae? I wonder if that has potential? Had to roll my eyes at the "pollution" part though. There is a reason why algae loves CO2.

Here is a Bjorn Lomborg article on renewable energy sources. This chart shows how renewables used to be our main source of energy and how it's fallen.


The Decline of Renewable Energy

PRAGUE – Many today believe that renewable energy will let us get off fossil fuels soon. Unfortunately, the facts say otherwise.
According to International Energy Agency data, 13.12% of the world’s energy came from renewables in 1971, the first year that the IEA reported global statistics. In 2011, renewables’ share was actually lower, at 12.99%. Yet a new survey shows that Americans believe that the share of renewables in 2035 will be 30.2%. In reality, it will likely be 14.5%.

Solar and wind energy account for a trivial proportion of current renewables – about one-third of one percentage point. The vast majority comes from biomass, or wood and plant material – humanity’s oldest energy source. While biomass is renewable, it is often neither good nor sustainable.

Burning wood in pre-industrial Western Europe caused massive deforestation, as is occurring in much of the developing world today. The indoor air pollution that biomass produces kills more than three million people annually. Likewise, modern energy crops increase deforestation, displace agriculture, and push up food prices.

The most renewables-intensive places in the world are also the poorest. Africa gets almost 50% of its energy from renewables, compared to just 8% for the OECD. Even the European OECD countries, at 11.8%, are below the global average.

The reality is that humanity has spent recent centuries getting away from renewables. In 1800, the world obtained 94% of its energy from renewable sources. That figure has been declining ever since.

The momentous move toward fossil fuels has done a lot of good. Compared to 250 years ago, the average person in the United Kingdom today has access to 50 times more power, travels 250 times farther, and has 37,500 times more light. Incomes have increased 20-fold.

The switch to fossil fuels has also had tremendous environmental benefits. Kerosene saved the whales (which had been hunted almost to extinction to provide supposedly “renewable” whale oil for lighting). Coal saved Europe’s forests. With electrification, indoor air pollution, which is much more dangerous than outdoor air pollution, disappeared in most of the developed world.
And there is one environmental benefit that is often overlooked: in 1910, more than 30% of farmland in the United States was used to produce fodder for horses and mules. Tractors and cars eradicated this huge demand on farmland (while ridding cities of manure pollution).

Of course, fossil fuels brought their own environmental problems. And, while technological innovations like scrubbers on smokestacks and catalytic converters on cars have reduced local air pollution substantially, the problem of CO₂ emissions remains. Indeed, it is the main reason for the world’s clamor for a return to renewables.
To be sure, wind and solar have increased dramatically. Since 1990, wind-generated power has grown 26% per year and solar a phenomenal 48%. But the growth has been from almost nothing to slightly more than almost nothing. In 1990, wind produced 0.0038% of the world’s energy; it is now producing 0.29%. Solar-electric power has gone from essentially zero to 0.04%.
Yes, Denmark gets a record 34% of its electricity from wind. But electricity accounts for only 18% of its final energy use.

Europe now gets 1% of its energy from wind – less than before industrialization, when cozy windmills contributed about 2% (and ships’ sails provided another 1%). The UK set its record for wind power in 1804, when its share reached 2.5% – almost three times its level today.
Moreover, solar and wind will still contribute very little in the coming decades. In the IEA’s optimistic scenario, which assumes that the world’s governments will fulfill all of their green promises, wind will provide 1.34% of global energy by 2035, while solar will provide 0.42%. Global renewables will most likely increase by roughly 1.5 percentage points, to 14.5% by 2035. Under unrealistically optimistic assumptions, the share could increase five percentage points, to 17.9%.

So we are nowhere near switching back to renewables anytime soon. In the US, renewables accounted for 9.3% of energy production in 1949. President Barack Obama’s administration expects that number, almost a century later, to increase slightly, to 10.8% by 2040. In China, renewables’ share in energy production dropped from 40% in 1971 to 11% today; in 2035, it will likely be just 9%.
Yet we are paying through the nose for these renewables. In the last 12 years, the world has invested $1.6 trillion in clean energy. By 2020, the effort to increase reliance on renewables will cost the European Union alone $250 billion annually.
Spain now pays almost 1% of its GDP in subsidies for renewables, which is more than it spends on higher education. At the end of the century, Spain’s massive investment will have postponed global warming by 62 hours.

Current green energy policies are failing for a simple reason: renewables are far too expensive. Sometimes people claim that renewables are actually cheaper. But if renewables were cheaper, they wouldn’t need subsidies, and we wouldn’t need climate policies.
Former US Vice President Al Gore’s climate adviser, Jim Hansen, put it bluntly: “Suggesting that renewables will let us phase rapidly off fossil fuels in the United States, China, India, or the world as a whole is almost the equivalent of believing in the Easter Bunny and [the] Tooth Fairy.”
The solution is to innovate the price of renewables downward. We need a dramatic increase in funding for research and development to make the next generations of wind, solar, and biomass energy cheaper and more effective.
Consider China. Despite the country’s massive investment in solar and wind, it mostly sells solar panels to Western countries at subsidized prices. Wind makes up just 0.2% of China’s energy, and solar accounts for 0.01%.

Meanwhile, China has 68% of the world’s solar water heaters on rooftops, because it is a smart and cheap technology. It needs no subsidies, and it produces 50 times more energy than all of China’s solar panels.

When green renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels, they will take over the world. Instead of believing in the Tooth Fairy, we should start investing in green R&D.
I definitely agree with the last part there. I have corresponded with Lomborg about that point even. Money currently being spent on subsidies may actually be hindering R&D of alternate energy sources. When the price comes down for renewables, the world will be rushing to switch over....there won't be any need to convince anyone at that point.

http://www.project-syndicate.org/co...-in-global-energy-production-by-bj-rn-lomborg
 
A rare public debate between two scientists over AGW. Happened in Germany. I translated with Google, but if you read German it would be easier to understand. It's Fritz Vahrenholt a chemistry professor and one of the leaders of the environmental movement in Germany vs IPCC climate scientist Daniela Jacob. (Obviously AGW supporters are currently very angry at Vahrenholt for changing his stance). Apparently Vahrenholt won key points in the debate by getting Jacob to admit the climate models are not accurate and they should not be predicting specific numbers.

About a hundred spectators witnessed the unusual duel to the CDU had invited on Wednesday night at Hotel Scandic Hamburg. After having Vahrenholt and Jacob held their lectures and fought fierce disputes, the battle seems to decide: "If the climate models do not match the reality," thunders Vahrenholt, "then the reality is not wrong!" First applause rattles through the small seminar room, his polemic is worth one point win. "I like you, Mr. Vahrenholt," calls a lady.

Wound of climate research

With this statement Vahrenholt drilled in a wound of climate research: For 15 years, the average global temperature has stagnated , the computer models had the heating does not break on the bill. The models could not understand the surprising temperature profile report climatologist Hans von Storch at the Helmholtz Centre GKSS in a new study . The probability that the simulations were inaccurate in this respect, was higher than 98 percent. The climate crisis is disproved, says Vahrenholt consisting of his bold thesis has made ​​a bestseller .

Explanations for the surprising development it deems credible. Presumably, the oceans have swallowed up much of the heat, however climatologists believe on the basis of new evidence , however, to not be able to prove it robust. Soon the air would heat up again. The climate vacillate times now, explains Daniela Jacob. They tried a public appeal Comparison: "You already know from the Bible: Seven good followed by seven bad years." But viewers want to know: Does it have to come to disaster, the temperatures are still really significantly increase?

Vahrenholt thinks the effect of greenhouse gases would be overestimated, fail the further heating mildly. Support of researchers, however, it receives little: The Science sees no reason for an all-clear, but considerable risks due to climate change . "We need to improve communication with the public," Jacob says. An error was to provide concrete numbers for forecasts.

"As in a marriage"

"If you ask me how often there is extreme rain in Blankenese in 40 years, I can only say:. I do not know" Your computer models provided only clamping widths. Jacob turns to the audience: "In business or in a marriage are you not better." Even in these areas of life founded on forecasts considerable uncertainty.

"Science," admits the climate researcher, had become critical of the presentation of their results . Many researchers had "stirred up panic" in recent years. "I do not believe it," she says. "We all have learned a." The Climate Service Center, where Jacob works, now only deliver forecast scenarios with uncertainty information.
The confession provoked Vahrenholt. "Why is it, was ridden as panic, intervened no moderate climate scientists?" He asks loudly. "But sometimes you have to publicly distance himself from the agitators of the Potsdam Institute, Mrs. Jacob!" Applause in the audience.

The manager gets going. The climate forecasts have political consequences, as must not keep silent, "The catastrophic escalations some researchers are threatening to destroy the location Germany" calls Vahrenholt. "1,000 billion euros for the energy revolution, who should pay?" Response of the climate researcher: "I express myself as a scientist only to my area of ​​expertise and not political."
Interesting to me that the climate scientist quoted the bible to back her views. :eek:

But, as expressed in the debate, I too wonder why moderate climate scientists have not been more aggressive in expressing their doubts and outright disagreements with the "doom" scenarios presented by the press, political leaders, and certain prominent leaders in climate science. As mentioned, this has political consequences for the public. There has been some mention of pressure to remain silent by people like Joanne Simpson. I would like to know more about that. The Hans von Storch study is also worth reading too (linked in the article).

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/...tz-vahrenholt-und-daniela-jacob-a-916692.html
 
Interesting idea...but I always look with a skeptical eye at any claim that we control the climate. Here is a paper putting forth the idea that clean air laws actually allowed more solar heat to reach the surface, thereby warming the planet.
Clean-air policies in developing countries have resulted in reduced levels of anthropogenic atmospheric aerosol pollution. Reductions in aerosol pollution is thought to result in a reduction in haze and cloud layers, leading to an increase in the amount of solar radiation reaching the surface, and ultimately, an increase in surface temperatures. There have been many studies illustrating coherent relationships between surface solar radiation and temperature however, a direct link between aerosol emissions, concentrations, and surface radiation has not been demonstrated to date. Here, we illustrate a coherence between the trends of reducing anthropogenic aerosol emissions and concentrations, at the interface between the North-East Atlantic and western-Europe, leading to a staggering increase in surface solar radiation of the order of ∼20% over the last decade.

http://proceedings.aip.org/resource/2/apcpcs/1527/1/579_1?isAuthorized=no
 
I didn't pay to read the article, but only reading an abstract isnt enough to get a grasp of the entire study. Aerosol emissions may be way down, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other pollutants that can destroy ozone layer. China powers its factories with coal, which is an enormously destructive pollutant.


Source: EPA.gov
 
Last edited:
I didn't pay to read the article, but only reading an abstract isnt enough to get a grasp of the entire study. Aerosol emissions may be way down, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other pollutants that can destroy ozone layer. China powers its factories with coal, which is an enormously destructive pollutant.


Source: EPA.gov
That graph is a great illustration of how futile it is to try and curtail CO2 emissions through punitive measures in western nations. Developing countries aren't going to remain poor because some people in rich countries think we are "destroying the planet".

But that study isn't about the ozone. It's about the possibility that reductions in aerosols allowed more solar energy to reach the surface...and warmed the planet. That still plays into the "we mighty humans control everything!" mindset....but it's as good as the AGW theory.
 
Human innovation. Those in the green movement never account for it when making "doom" predictions.

Here is good news...and a great example of how human innovation works.

New rechargeable flow battery enables cheaper, large-scale energy storage

August 16, 2013

MIT researchers have engineered a new rechargeable flow battery that doesn’t rely on expensive membranes to generate and store electricity. The device, they say, may one day enable cheaper, large-scale energy storage.

The palm-sized prototype generates three times as much power per square centimeter as other membraneless systems — a power density that is an order of magnitude higher than that of many lithium-ion batteries and other commercial and experimental energy-storage systems.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2013/...-cheaper-large-scale-energy-storage-0816.html

Interesting to me that some skeptics I know are instantly retreating to the same tactic as AGW believers on this. "Yeah...but it sill won't help solar and wind because they are inefficient!"

Ok...it's accurate to say this won't make those sources viable by itself. But that is assuming we will never make any advances in solar energy. The sun bombards us with a ridiculous amount of energy every day. When (not if) we figure out a way to collect that energy in a better more efficient way, that could be huge for us. Wind...that's a different thing. I find that less promising than solar personally.

To assume no more innovation is not logical. This article is the kind of thing that shows how we make advances.
 
That graph is a great illustration of how futile it is to try and curtail CO2 emissions through punitive measures in western nations. Developing countries aren't going to remain poor because some people in rich countries think we are "destroying the planet".

Lessening the damage of greenhouse gas from Western nations is worth the effort. It wont be a cure all but it is worth doing. Efforts are being made the get the developing countries on board with the West, although it has been difficult. They have been reluctant in the past but as the climate continues to worsen (for the traditional way of life anyway) the Russians, Chinese and Indians have been coming around.

But that study isn't about the ozone. It's about the possibility that reductions in aerosols allowed more solar energy to reach the surface...and warmed the planet. That still plays into the "we mighty humans control everything!" mindset....but it's as good as the AGW theory.

I think any respected climatologist would have no trouble admitting that climate change has occurred in the past without the help of humans. The current trends may even be partially natural, but it is naive to say that all of these carbon gases being pumped into the air from nations all over the world over a period of decades has had no effect whatsoever. That is like saying that a person has a gene that can lead to cancer, so they dont need to stop smoking because they will get sick anyway.
 
Last edited:
That still plays into the "we mighty humans control everything!" mindset...
strawman_zps712ae940.jpg
 
Lessening the damage of greenhouse gas from Western nations is worth the effort. It wont be a cure all but it is worth doing. Efforts are being made the get the developing countries on board with the West, although it has been difficult. They have been reluctant in the past but as the climate continues to worsen (for the traditional way of life anyway) the Russians, Chinese and Indians have been coming around.
A couple of things you appear to want to take for granted which are not proven.

What damage? How is the climate "worsening"? The predictions about storms are not coming true. There are always going to be changes in the climate good and bad...where is the proof that the changes are due to us?

Environmentalism is only possible when a society is rich. Becoming poorer means other concerns become more important. Developing nations are not going to forgo prosperity for the environmentalist ideas of the west. Here is a view from someone in a developing nation who explains exactly why the idea of jumping onboard is not appealing to them.

Africa’s real climate crisis

By Guest Column Fiona Kobusingye

Life in Africa is often nasty, impoverished and short. AIDS kills 2.2 million Africans every year, say WHO reports. Lung infections cause 1.4 million deaths, malaria 1 million more, intestinal diseases 700,000. Diseases that could be prevented with simple vaccines kill an additional 600,000 annually, while war, malnutrition and life in filthy slums send countless more parents and children to early graves.

And yet, day after day, Africans are told the biggest threat we face is – global warming.

Conferences, news stories, television programs, class lectures and one-sided “dialogues” repeat the claim endlessly. Using oil and petrol, even burning wood and charcoal, will dangerously overheat our planet, melt ice caps, flood coastal cities, and cause storms, droughts, disease and extinctions, we’re told.

Over 700 climate scientists and 31,000 other scientists say humans and plant-fertilizing carbon dioxide have minimal effects on Earth’s temperature and climate, and there is no global warming crisis. But their views and studies are never invited or even tolerated in these “climate crisis” forums, especially at “ministerial dialogues” staged with United Nations money. Al Gore refuses to debate any of these experts, or even permit questions that he hasn’t approved ahead of time.

Instead, Africans are told climate change “threatens humanity more than HIV/AIDS.” More than 2.2 million dead Africans every year?

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/13225

Hobgoblin said:
I think any respected climatologist would have no trouble admitting that climate change has occurred in the past without the help of humans. The current trends may even be partially natural, but it is naive to say that all of these carbon gases being pumped into the air from nations all over the world over a period of decades has had no effect whatsoever. That is like saying that a person has a gene that can lead to cancer, so they dont need to stop smoking because they will get sick anyway.
I see human ego at work again. We actually think our tiny CO2 emissions are a big deal. We like to say "tons" as if that is a big deal. CO2 makes up 0.04% of the atmosphere and our contribution to that 0.04% is 0.12%. That's our "tons".
It's the same mindset. I'm very skeptical of that mindset.
 
Interesting article by climate scientist Judith Curry.

Scientists and motivated reasoning

by Judith Curry

Motivated reasoning affects scientists as it does other groups in society, although it is often pretended that scientists somehow escape this predicament.

Nobel causes

Scientists may either bias their research in favor of concerns about public policy and the environment in subtle ways, or they may actively work to suppress evidence, and in some instances they may proactively manufacture evidence to discredit their opponents.

To start: Reiner Grundmann at Die Klimazweibel has a recent article entitled Science for a good cause? Excerpts:

Imagine the following scenario. An atmospheric scientist makes a discovery that seems to challenge a particular model of sea level increase due to global warming. She expects her discovery will be refined through further research, and that, in the end, it will not refute the mainstream view. In the meantime, she wants to avoid giving ammunition to climate skeptics, so she postpones publication. But an ambitious postdoc surreptitiously informs the media about the discovery. The media accuse the scientist of a cover-up and report that key evidence for anthropogenic climate change has been refuted.

How would you react if someone concludes in the following way: ‘The atmospheric scientist was not wrong to withhold the information from the public; she wisely foresaw the danger that it would be deployed in misleading ways and attempted to do her bit for the promotion of public freedom’.

This is not a scenario invented by myself, but by the philosopher of science Philip Kitcher, recounted in a review of his book by Mark Brown.

In my view this comment exemplifies a problematic attitude not only in climate science but in the social sciences as well. The good cause which allegedly motivates much of the research puts the researcher in a special position. It allows them to dispense with essential standards of professional conduct. It is perhaps not remarkable that we see a ‘leading figure’ in the philosophy of science defend questionable practices which have been modelled (not by accident I suppose) after the famous climategate affair.

The risks for the credibility of science (no matter which branch or discipline) are clear. Anyone who comes across such commentary will take this as confirmation that science can be twisted according to the will of scientists (or elites); that science is constructed (in the vulgar sense of being ‘made up’ and ‘fake’); and that scientists preserve the prerogative of making judgements which data are for public consumption and which are not.

As I pointed out in a recent talk, motivated reasoning is a problem for scientists. It affects scientists as it does other groups in society, although it is often pretended that scientists somehow escape this predicament. The above comment from Kitcher (‘the atmospheric scientists was not wrong to withhold the information from the public’) is a powerful illustration of social scientists falling into the trap of motivated reasoning, justifying the questionable professional standards through recourse to alleged higher ethical standards.

Scientists will only be able to command trust in society if they follow basic professional standards. Prime among them is to publish the results of their research, no matter if they support a desirable storyline or not.

Last year, I encountered a stark example of this. One of my colleagues was thinking about publishing a paper that challenges the IPCC interpretation of the previous pause during the 1940s to 1970′s. My colleague sent a .ppt presentation on this topic to three colleagues, each of whom is a very respected senior scientist and none of whom have been particularly vocal advocates on the subject of climate change (names are withheld to protect the guilty/innocent). Each of these scientists strongly encouraged my colleague NOT to publish this paper, since it would only provide fodder for the skeptics. (Note: my colleague has not yet written this paper, but not because he was discouraged by these colleagues).

What is at issue here is a conflict between the micro ethics of individual responsibility for responsible conduct of research and larger ethical issues associated with the well-being of the public and the environment. Most such examples are related to suppression of evidence including attempting to stifle skeptical research (particularly its publication and dissemination to the public); the Climategate emails provide abundant examples of this.

A more pro-active example of this conflict is the curious case of Peter Gleick and the Heartland Affair. On my post Gleick’s integrity, I wrote:

Gleick’s ‘integrity’ seems to have nothing to do with scientific integrity, but rather loyalty to and consistency with what I have called the UNFCCC/IPCC ideology.

When ‘Heartlandgate’ first broke, I saw no parallels with Climategate. Now, with the involvement of Gleick, there most certainly are parallels. There is the common theme of climate scientists compromising personal and professional ethics, integrity, and responsibility, all in the interests of a ’cause’.

Fuller and Mosher’s book Climategate: The CruTape Letters argued that ‘noble cause corruption’ was a primary motivation behind the Climategate deceits. Noble cause corruption is when the ends (noble) justify the means (ignoble). I think that there is an element of this that can be seen in the Climategate emails, but I think the motivated reasoning by climate scientists is more complex (and ultimately less ‘noble’).

Institutional loyalties

In the early days of this blog, one of my more controversial essays was Reversing the positive feedback loop, which lays out motivated reasoning associated with institutional loyalties. Excerpts (with some slightly toned down wording):

Once the UNFCCC treaty was a done deal, the IPCC and its scientific conclusions were set on a track to become a self fulfilling prophecy. The entire framing of the IPCC was designed around identifying sufficient evidence so that the human-induced greenhouse warming could be declared unequivocal, and so providing the rationale for developing the political will to implement and enforce carbon stabilization targets. National and international science programs were funded to support the IPCC objectives.

Were [these] just hardworking scientists doing their best to address the impossible expectations of the policy makers? Well, many of them were. However, at the heart of the IPCC is a cadre of scientists whose careers have been made by the IPCC. These scientists have used the IPCC to jump the normal meritocracy process by which scientists achieve influence over the politics of science and policy. Not only has this brought some relatively unknown, inexperienced and possibly dubious people into positions of influence, but these people become vested in protecting the IPCC, which has become central to their own career and legitimizes playing power politics with their expertise.

When I refer to the IPCC dogma, it is the religious importance that the IPCC holds for this cadre of scientists; they will tolerate no dissent, and seek to trample and discredit anyone who challenges the IPCC. Some are mid to late career middle ranking scientists who have done ok in terms of the academic meritocracy. Others were still graduate students when they were appointed as lead authors for the IPCC. These scientists have used to IPCC to gain a seat at the “big tables” where they can play power politics with the collective expertise of the IPCC, to obtain personal publicity, and to advance their careers. This advancement of their careers is done with the complicity of the professional societies and the institutions that fund science. Eager for the publicity, high impact journals such as Nature, Science, and PNAS frequently publish sensational but dubious papers that support the climate alarm narrative.

Especially in the renascent subfields such as ecology and public health, these publications and the media attention help steer money in the direction of these scientists, which buys them loyalty from their institutions, who appreciate the publicity and the dollars.

Further, the institutions that support science use the publicity to argue for more funding to support climate research and its impacts. And the broader scientific community inadvertently becomes complicit in all this. While the IPCC proponents loudly cry out against the heretical skeptical scientists and the dark influences of big oil and right wing ideology that are anti-science, we all join in bemoaning these dark forces that are fighting a war against science, and support the IPCC against its critics.

So do I think IPCC scientists are policy advocates? They seem mainly concerned with preserving the importance of the IPCC, which has become central to their professional success, funding, and influence. Most don’t understand the policy process or the policy specifics; they view the policy as part an parcel of the IPCC dogma that must be protected and preserved at all cost, else their success, funding and influence will be in jeopardy.

Back in 2010, this post raised the ire of a number of people. My response to people that were angered by my post: ‘If the shoe fits, wear it; if it doesn’t, don’t.’

The existence of an institutionalized consensus further complicates the issue, and an additional motivation comes into play. In my paper No consensus on consensus, I used this quote from Jean Goodwin:

“Once the consensus claim was made, scientists involved in the ongoing IPCC process had reasons not just to consider the scientific evidence, but to consider the possible effect of their statements on their ability to defend the consensus claim.”

Loyalty to colleagues

The issue of loyalty to colleagues came starkly to the forefront in response the release of the Climategate emails. I was criticized for my early essays by colleagues because talking about even the broad issues of uncertainty, transparency, losing trust etc was viewed as insensitive to the feelings of the individual scientists involved (and not helping the ’cause’). Jerry North stated publicly that he would not read the emails out of respect for the scientistists involved.

This issue was made very explicit by the title of the Scientific American article entitled Climate Heretic: Judith Curry turns against her Colleagues. Of all the issues raised by Climategate and the points I had been trying to make about overconfidence and uncertainty, transparency, engaging with skeptics, etc., the main issue of interest in all this was construed as me turning against my colleagues? It was hard for me to understand this at first, but then I realized that by talking about uncertainty and engaging with skeptics that I was following the playbook according to the merchants of doubt meme. So talking about topics that I regarded as efforts that were needed to rebuild the credibility of climate science was regarded by my ‘colleagues’ as damaging to the consensus.

Early on in my statements about Climategate, I became aware that my statements were looked upon very unfavorably by some scientists, particularly those that were vocal advocates of the IPCC and UNFCCC policies. As an example, Peter Webster related a conversation at a professional meeting in 2010 with a young scientist who said something like: ‘You know, Judy is REALLY unpopular among the scientists at lab. I’m not sure, but I think she might be right. I can say that to you but of course I wouldn’t dare say that at the lab.’

I soon realized that by doing this, I was pretty much destroying any chance I might have had for further recognition/awards by professional societies such as the AGU. I also thought I risked unfavorable reviews of my papers and grant proposals (this has definitely not happened). I have become a minor hero to some for my advocacy of integrity in climate research. So does any of the above matter to me?

Last June, I encountered at a meeting an elected official of one of the major professional societies, who was not unsympathetic to my positions. He asked me: ”I have wondered what possessed you to break loose from the mainstream opinions of the community, with potentially adverse professional consequences.” My response was that I was doing this because I thought it was the right thing to do, and that I thought that someone needed to stand up as an advocate for professional responsibility and integrity in climate research. And I inched into all this, with the adverse response from my ‘colleagues’ further justifying to me the need to do what I was doing. So in context of the microethical dilemmas, I went with my conscience, which told me to put professional responsibility and integrity ahead of the norms and desires of my colleagues and the institutions of climate science. It is still astonishing to me that there should be such a conflict.

I can understand how a personal conflict can arise between professional responsibility/integrity versus an environmental or social issue that the individual deems to be very important (scientists working on the atom bomb are an example here). But conflicts between professional responsibility/integrity versus loyalty to colleagues/institutions seems to me very difficult to justify in a way that is not self serving. The only non-self serving justification that I can think of (and one that I fell for for awhile) was solidarity in fighting against a ‘war on science.’ I now understand that there was a heck of lot of motivated reasoning in putting forward the ‘war on science’ argument.

My ‘ostracism’ from the IPCC advocacy ’tribe’ has been noted by other scientists that are quietly sympathetic to my position. As an example, several years ago at a conference, one of the speakers was quite critical of one piece of the conventional IPCC wisdom, but prefaced the talk with the statement something like this: ’While my talk contains some evidence that challenges some of the findings of the IPCC, I want to state up front that I support the IPCC consensus on climate change.’ After the talk, I asked this scientist why he felt the need to preface his talk with a statement of IPCC allegiance, when his research was rather devastating to part of the IPCC’s argument. He stated ‘I don’t want to have to put up with what you have had to, so I make it very clear that I support the IPCC consensus.’

Dan Kahan’s post (discussed on the previous Scientific Evidence thread) included a statement that I find to be particularly apt here:

But if I take the wrong position on the issue relative the one that predominates in my group, and I might well cost myself the trust and respect of many on whose support I depend, emotionally, materially and otherwise.

My treatment at the hands of the consensus police has apparently discouraged some other scientists from publicly following suit. On the other hand, perhaps I have helped to pave the way for the emergence of a Tamsin Edwards. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out. And all this is why I regard the institutionalization of climate tribalism such as evidenced by the recent AGU statement on climate change to be so pernicious to the field of climate science.

(skipped to the end...the rest at the linked article)

Concluding statements

This essay was motivated by a very interesting email conversation with Dan Kahan. I have put forward a thesis that is supported by some anecdotal evidence and arguments (names have been omitted to protect the innocent/guilty). This post is sort of a prolegomena to what I hope will be future studies that investigate the sociology and psychology of scientists and motivated reasoning, and its influence on public trust in science.

Climate change is arguably a unique case in all of science owing to magnitude of the socioeconomic impacts of both the problem and the proposed solutions and the massive institutionalization of a consensus that has been manufactured by the IPCC.

While there may be genuinely difficult ethical challenges associated with perceived noble causes, I am particularly concerned about microethical conflicts involving colleagues and scientific institutions that apparently justify self-serving irresponsible professional behavior, both by individuals and institutions. This seems much worse to me than politically motivated reasoning by members of the public.

I have no personal attachment to the hypotheses presented here; I fervently hope that someone can justifiably demonstrate that my thesis is incorrect. But to me there seems like a heck of a lot of evidence supporting my thesis, only a fraction of which can be included in a blog post.

Personally, I have felt the need to break loose of the shackles of loyalty to colleagues and institutions if it comes at the expense of integrity in science and professional conduct. I envy Richard Muller who comes at the issue of climate science without the baggage associated with loyalty to colleagues or institutions in the climate field; rather his colleagues are a very elite group of physicists. Muller’s approach of securing private funding and publishing his papers first on the internet has allowed him to avoid the schackles that I rather uncomfortably had to break away from. Private funding, the internet, and the emergence of scientists from outside the traditional community (not just Muller’s team but also Steve McIntyre, Nic Lewis etc.) bodes well for improving the integrity of climate science in the 21st century and diminishing the effectiveness of the consensus police.

But I am hoping this essay will promote some self reflection among climate scientists regarding their own ethical conflicts and values. Unfortunately, I suspect this essay will also trigger a backlash from the consensus police (absence of such a backlash would help disprove my thesis ha ha), but I am pretty much immune to all that at this point.


http://judithcurry.com/2013/08/20/scientists-and-motivated-reasoning/
 
A couple of things you appear to want to take for granted which are not proven.

What damage? How is the climate "worsening"? The predictions about storms are not coming true. There are always going to be changes in the climate good and bad...where is the proof that the changes are due to us?

Here are a few examples of how the climate is worsening due to human activity.

The Expanding Gobi Desert
http://www.calacademy.org/science/biomes/deserts/

A Report on Desertification Presented to the Australian Parliament
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...opic/ClimateChange/theClimate/desertification

Arctic Soil Continues to Melt
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=arctic-soil-thaw-may-unleash-runaway-global-warming

Environmentalism is only possible when a society is rich. Becoming poorer means other concerns become more important. Developing nations are not going to forgo prosperity for the environmentalist ideas of the west. Here is a view from someone in a developing nation who explains exactly why the idea of jumping onboard is not appealing to them.

I dont see how the wealth of a society has any relevance to climate change. Just because a society doesnt consider climate change to be serious doesnt make global warming a less urgent problem. Those living in poor societies will have to deal with the consequences of climate change whether they consider it to be a priority or not.


I see human ego at work again. We actually think our tiny CO2 emissions are a big deal. We like to say "tons" as if that is a big deal. CO2 makes up 0.04% of the atmosphere and our contribution to that 0.04% is 0.12%. That's our "tons".

CO2 isnt the only greenhouse gas. While it is true that nitrogen is the most common gas in our atmosphere at 78%, it is different from the nitrogen that human beings have been pumping into the air for most of the last century.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1247398/
 
Last edited:
Here are a few examples of how the climate is worsening due to human activity.

The Expanding Gobi Desert
http://www.calacademy.org/science/biomes/deserts/

A Report on Desertification Presented to the Australian Parliament
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...opic/ClimateChange/theClimate/desertification

Arctic Soil Continues to Melt
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=arctic-soil-thaw-may-unleash-runaway-global-warming
Ok...how is this man-made? The first link actually points out that this began in the 1930 (two decades before our emissions could be a factor).

The second link (from a political body no less) openly admits: "Scientists cannot yet predict how climate change will affect the global rate of desertification" and "The degree to which the desertification of the last few decades has been influenced by climate change is open to debate. It is clear that other mechanisms, particularly deforestation and agricultural practices, are major influences."

The third article: "It remains unclear how much of an impact such thawing permafrost will ultimately have and the sites sampled were solely in North America—leaving the vast tundra of northern Europe and Siberia to be an educated guess." is relying on "educated guesses" to speculate about "runaway warming". No mention of how this is caused by man. Also don't see any quotes from a scientist claiming "runaway warming" (and why would they since CO2 levels have been over 7000ppm in the past and it didn't happen)....the writer of the article didn't have a problem putting that into the title though.

Those are the types of uncertainties that political organizations like the IPCC downplay or don't mention at all. Amazing how when you actually read interviews with scientists that they are sometimes much more open about what they do not know. Judith Curry outlined the pressures climate scientists are under to downplay their uncertainties, but some are resisting that pressure and speaking frankly.

I guess we'll stop hearing about how hurricanes and tornadoes are going to get worse and doom us all now. :cwink:
I dont see how the wealth of a society has any relevance to climate change. Just because a society doesnt consider climate change to be serious doesnt make global warming a less urgent problem. Those living in poor societies will have to deal with the consequences of climate change whether they consider it to be a priority or not.
That's the sort of attitude Fiona Kobusingye is tired of. Over 2 million Africans a year dying is "less urgent" than a theory based on predictions which are not coming true.
CO2 isnt the only greenhouse gas. While it is true that nitrogen is the most common gas in our atmosphere at 78%, it is different from the nitrogen that human beings have been pumping into the air for most of the last century.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1247398/
A good one to remember in the future when those doomsday predictions don't come true either. Although he is pretty vague in his predictions....Lots of "can cause" in that article. A return of the "acid rain" scare which fell out of favor a couple of decades ago when nothing came of it the first time. Also more claims that this will heat up the planet....though that hasn't happened during the last 15 years when he claims we've elevated nitrogen levels. And best of all the "delicate balance" claim. Hard to believe a real scientist would actually say something like that....there is no such thing on this planet. The climate has varied widely over the centuries and never reached a "tipping point". If the climate is doing anything over the past 10,000 years, it's cooling:

 
I like Lindzen's term "catastrophic public policy". That's the sort of thing which bothers Fiona Kobusingye.

Climate Science Exploited for Political Agenda, According to Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons

TUCSON, Ariz., Aug. 28, 2013 -- Climatism or global warming alarmism is the most prominent recent example of science being coopted to serve a political agenda, writes Richard Lindzen of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the in the fall 2013 issue of the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons. He compares it to past examples: Lysenkoism in the Soviet Union, and the eugenics movement.

Lindzen describes the Iron Triangle and the Iron Rice Bowl, in which ambiguous statements by scientists are translated into alarmist statements by media and advocacy groups, influencing politicians to feed more money to the acquiescent scientists.

In consequence, he writes, "A profound dumbing down of the discussion…interacts with the ascendancy of incompetents." Prizes and accolades are awarded for politically correct statements, even if they defy logic. "Unfortunately, this also often induces better scientists to join the pack in order to preserve their status," Lindzen adds.

Lindzen discusses key aspects of the global warming models, including their dependence on the "globally averaged mean temperature anomaly"—that is the average of the differences between the average temperature for the year at each weather station and the 1961-1990 average for that station. This metric is used to create an influential graph that resembles the daily chart of stock indices, but is of dubious significance. The change in the anomaly is tiny against the perspective of the temperature variations we experience daily, Lindzen demonstrates.

In normal science, models are judged by how well they agree with nature, Lindzen explains. In the climate "debate," however, the models are given a claim to validity independent of agreement with real observations.
The highly oversimplified terms of the discussion in the policy arena "largely exclude the most interesting examples of historical climate change. The heavy intellectual price of the politicization of science is rarely addressed," writes Lindzen.

Lindzen writes: "Global climate alarmism has been costly to society, and it has the potential to be vastly more costly. It has also been damaging to science, as scientists adjust both data and even theory to accommodate politically correct positions. How can one escape from the Iron Triangle when it produces flawed science that is immensely influential and is forcing catastrophic public policy?"

Escape from climate alarmism will be more difficult than from Lysenkoism, in Lindzen's view, because Global Warming has become a religion. It has a global constituency and has coopted almost all institutional science. Nevertheless, he believes "the cracks in the scientific claims for catastrophic warming are…becoming much harder for the supporters to defend."



http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...erican-physicians-and-surgeons-221474241.html
 
Ok...how is this man-made? The first link actually points out that this began in the 1930 (two decades before our emissions could be a factor).

Did you actually read the articles? The first article says "The causes are complex, but human population growth is at the crux. The more people, the higher the demand for habitable land, for livestock grazing, for firewood, and for water. The more people, the greater the chance of poor agricultural practices that result in nutrient-deficient soil unsuitable for plant growth." There is more ways to harm the environment, and thus people, than just carbon emissions.

The second link (from a political body no less) openly admits: "Scientists cannot yet predict how climate change will affect the global rate of desertification" and "The degree to which the desertification of the last few decades has been influenced by climate change is open to debate. It is clear that other mechanisms, particularly deforestation and agricultural practices, are major influences."

The second link really isnt from a political body, as much as it was presented to a political body. Only the best scientists get to speak with Parliament, so I would give these people a listen. They say that "The climate has altered drastically since the onset of the prolonged drought in the 1960s, part of a recurrent pattern of wet and dry cycles common to Sahelian Africa. Experts agree, however, that overgrazing, deforestation, denuding of ground cover around wells, poor farming methods, and overpopulation have aggravated the drought. In Mauritania the isohyet [geographic line of constant rainfall] indicating annual rainfall of 150 millimeters—considered the minimum for pastoralism—has shifted southward about 100 kilometers. During the 1980s, the desert was advancing southward at an estimated rate of six kilometers a year. Each major climatic zone had shifted southward."

Again, they dont say that this was caused solely by greenhouse gases but still caused by human activity.

The third article: "It remains unclear how much of an impact such thawing permafrost will ultimately have and the sites sampled were solely in North America—leaving the vast tundra of northern Europe and Siberia to be an educated guess." is relying on "educated guesses" to speculate about "runaway warming". No mention of how this is caused by man. Also don't see any quotes from a scientist claiming "runaway warming" (and why would they since CO2 levels have been over 7000ppm in the past and it didn't happen)....the writer of the article didn't have a problem putting that into the title though.

Did you click the link at the bottom of the article? It leads to another article that clearly links the first to man made climate change.

Those are the types of uncertainties that political organizations like the IPCC downplay or don't mention at all. Amazing how when you actually read interviews with scientists that they are sometimes much more open about what they do not know. Judith Curry outlined the pressures climate scientists are under to downplay their uncertainties, but some are resisting that pressure and speaking frankly.

I guess we'll stop hearing about how hurricanes and tornadoes are going to get worse and doom us all now. :cwink:

That's the sort of attitude Fiona Kobusingye is tired of. Over 2 million Africans a year dying is "less urgent" than a theory based on predictions which are not coming true.

No one is saying that the needs of Africans is not urgent. But it is foolish to think that climate change can be ignored because it isnt an immediate problem.

A good one to remember in the future when those doomsday predictions don't come true either. Although he is pretty vague in his predictions....Lots of "can cause" in that article. A return of the "acid rain" scare which fell out of favor a couple of decades ago when nothing came of it the first time. Also more claims that this will heat up the planet....though that hasn't happened during the last 15 years when he claims we've elevated nitrogen levels. And best of all the "delicate balance" claim. Hard to believe a real scientist would actually say something like that....there is no such thing on this planet. The climate has varied widely over the centuries and never reached a "tipping point". If the climate is doing anything over the past 10,000 years, it's cooling:

I'm curious where you got that chart from.

The article also says that research has "linked nitrates to reproductive problems and some cancers, including increased risks for bladder and ovarian cancers at concentrations below 10 parts per million." And "The effects of N2O can persist for decades, with a residence time of 120 years in the atmosphere, says Robert Howarth, a professor of ecology and environmental biology at Cornell University. “It plays a big role in catalyzing the destruction of ozone in the stratosphere,” he explains. “It’s a greenhouse gas, and it’s a pretty potent greenhouse gas—it’s the longest-lived greenhouse gas in the atmosphere.” Once in the atmosphere, other nitrogen gases such as NOx and ammonia can also generate particulates that are small enough to penetrate deep into the lungs, contributing to cardiovascular diseases, respiratory diseases, asthma, reduced lung function, and overall mortality."

I have to say it is funny that you accuse the media of cherry picking news stories that exaggerate the danger of global warming when you are doing the same right here with the articles that I have posted.

One last article:

http://desmogblog.com/2012/11/15/why-climate-deniers-have-no-credibility-science-one-pie-chart
 
Last edited:
Did you actually read the articles? The first article says "The causes are complex, but human population growth is at the crux. The more people, the higher the demand for habitable land, for livestock grazing, for firewood, and for water. The more people, the greater the chance of poor agricultural practices that result in nutrient-deficient soil unsuitable for plant growth." There is more ways to harm the environment, and thus people, than just carbon emissions.
So....we are going to stop claiming this is due to our CO2 emissions?

We still have to believe we, the mighty human race, control the planet in some other way though. We've always done this...it's nothing new. If there is a drought, you can be sure someone will claim it's due to "man's sins".

Nice article here from 1839:

The Drought.

The drought still continues, and the Colonists have before them every prospect of a famine or something very closely approximating to it. From all parts of the country we have the same disheartening accounts. In most places the crops have entirely failed : in some few, about half a crop has been realized. In all quarters the sides of the road are said to be literally strewed with the carcasses of bullocks, which have perished for want of sustenance. Under such circumstances it is, we think, worthy the serious consideration of the Government,whether another day of fasting should not be set apart, to allow the people additional opportunity to humiliate themselves before the Lord in acknowledgement of our sins, and to pray, that the curse which threatens to overwhelm the land may be averted. —Sydney Gazette.

Every thing we hear agrees with our contemporary's description; the maize crop has produced a miserable average. Another contemporary says, we have a stock of wheat and flour in the colony to last about three months. We heard yesterday, that Settlers who live on the Banks of the Hunter, find no water in that river, not even for family use, and are obliged to send their water cart from two to four miles for water for family use. The "inland sea" of Mr Oxley to the west, is now terra firma. It produces a shrub, whose foliage is much relished by the cattle. They not only live on it exclusively, but it fattens them. But for this 'inland sea," and this shrub at the present time, no fat cattle would be found coming from the west. The Settlers of Argyle are harrowing in their wheat on the stubbles without any ploughing. The ground is like iron, as the Heavens are like brass. The ancient curse of Moses on the Jews, when they should relapse into idolatry, has overtaken New South Wales, and we fear South Australia too. The two girdles of the earth between the Tropics and 40, were often subject to droughts, as all old histories prove. The history of Palestine, Syria, and Arabia, as to seasons, is the history of New South Wales, La Plata and Chili. For a few years out of twenty, the equatorial and polar rains meet ; then we have flood. But the greater portion of the twenty they do not meet ; and then we have only mountain and coast showers, and droughts.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/32163229?searchTerm=drought syria&searchLimits=

If that were happening today....guess what the claims would be? :cwink:
The second link really isnt from a political body, as much as it was presented to a political body. Only the best scientists get to speak with Parliament, so I would give these people a listen. They say that "The climate has altered drastically since the onset of the prolonged drought in the 1960s, part of a recurrent pattern of wet and dry cycles common to Sahelian Africa. Experts agree, however, that overgrazing, deforestation, denuding of ground cover around wells, poor farming methods, and overpopulation have aggravated the drought. In Mauritania the isohyet [geographic line of constant rainfall] indicating annual rainfall of 150 millimeters—considered the minimum for pastoralism—has shifted southward about 100 kilometers. During the 1980s, the desert was advancing southward at an estimated rate of six kilometers a year. Each major climatic zone had shifted southward."

Again, they dont say that this was caused solely by greenhouse gases but still caused by human activity.
Wondering who these "best scientists" and "experts" are. (politicians usually define who they are) If they are activists scientists like Hansen, Jones, or Mann I certainly don't trust them. If they are those who are intimidated into supporting the company line as explained by Judith Curry I don't trust them either.

This is why, unlike most, I don't forget the past predictions. The "best scientists" are behind these failed predictions too. The entire debate is about the power of this theory to predict. Everything is based on the doom predictions.

Human ingeniuty is never accounted for in doom predictions of course. But in real life, we always figure things out. Good news (that environmentalists hate to acknowledge):

Massive Aquifer Discovered in Kenya holds 70 Years Worth of Water, May Reshape Nation

"We now have a tool that could not only help Kenya, but it could help other countries facing the issues of water scarcity," he said.

http://www.natureworldnews.com/arti...-kenya-holds-70-years-worth-water-reshape.htm

This is not even accounting for the fact that over 70% of the earth's surface is covered in water. We are working on ways to use that water and transport it to where it is needed. That would be a far better use for the billions spent on "climate change" in my opinion.

Hobgoblin said:
No one is saying that the needs of Africans is not urgent. But it is foolish to think that climate change can be ignored because it isnt an immediate problem.
She is saying it is foolish to ignore the urgent needs of Africans in favor of policies based upon the predictive powers of a theory which so far has been unable to produce accurate predictions. It's very easy for people in developed nations to talk about grand ideas like this from a position of comfort. People like her don't have that luxury.
Hobgoblin said:
I'm curious where you got that chart from.
This is a good watch: http://climateclips.com/archives/132

As he explains at the end, one of the major flaws in this theory is that we started a "baseline" at one of the coldest points of the last 10,000 years. That biases the experiment from the beginning. Of course temps began to rebound in the mid-1800s before our emissions could be a factor...which raises still more questions about the theory.
Hobgoblin said:
The article also says that research has "linked nitrates to reproductive problems and some cancers, including increased risks for bladder and ovarian cancers at concentrations below 10 parts per million." And "The effects of N2O can persist for decades, with a residence time of 120 years in the atmosphere, says Robert Howarth, a professor of ecology and environmental biology at Cornell University. “It plays a big role in catalyzing the destruction of ozone in the stratosphere,” he explains. “It’s a greenhouse gas, and it’s a pretty potent greenhouse gas—it’s the longest-lived greenhouse gas in the atmosphere.” Once in the atmosphere, other nitrogen gases such as NOx and ammonia can also generate particulates that are small enough to penetrate deep into the lungs, contributing to cardiovascular diseases, respiratory diseases, asthma, reduced lung function, and overall mortality."

I have to say it is funny that you accuse the media of cherry picking news stories that exaggerate the danger of global warming when you are doing the same right here with the articles that I have posted.
What I'm seeing there is a lot of "linked to", "can", "contributing to", "plays a big role in". And can I trust Robert Howarth? It's always good to hear both sides. Some don't think much of him:

http://anga.us/links-and-resources/howarth-a-credibility-gap#.UjhxTtJwqig

Meanwhile back in real life, our lifespans continue to grow longer and have been doing that throughout the current warm period now well over 150 years old. Are age adjusted cancer rates rising? Nope.

Rachel Carson started this with her predictions of cancer killing us all due to "chemicals" with her 1962 book "Silent Spring". As usual with doom, none of the predictions came true...but that didn't stop her and her book being lauded to this day for launching the environmental movement.

Doom predictions are fun actually. :word:

Hobgoblin0 said:
So websites which support one side or the other are allowed? You don't mind if I post articles from skeptical websites, right? :woot: Ok...

This is how AGW supporters form a "consensus":

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/09...ven-by-a-new-paper-showing-major-math-errors/

Just don't count any papers which don't support your position...easy.

Which is not even addressing the fallacy of "consensus" in the first place. Science does not care how many people believe something. Interestingly, I just watched the first part of the documentary about the space race called "When We Left the Earth" last night. They mentioned that 98% of scientists believed we could not survive in zero gravity before we went. I had to grin when I heard that.

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.

H. L. Mencken



"We need to get some broad based support,
to capture the public's imagination...
So we have to offer up scary scenarios,
make simplified, dramatic statements
and make little mention of any doubts...
Each of us has to decide what the right balance
is between being effective and being honest."
- Prof. Stephen Schneider,
Stanford Professor of Climatology,
IPCC lead author

"We've got to ride this global warming issue.
Even if the theory of global warming is wrong,
we will be doing the right thing in terms of
economic and environmental policy."
- Timothy Wirth,
President of the UN Foundation

"No matter if the science of global warming is all phony...
climate change provides the greatest opportunity to
bring about justice and equality in the world."
- Christine Stewart,
former Canadian Minister of the Environment


And this new one is amazing. Connie Hedegaard is logic free here:

"I personally have a very pragmatic view.
"Say that 30 years from now, science came back and said, 'wow, we were mistaken then now we have some new information so we think it is something else'. In a world with nine billion people, even 10 billion at the middle of this century, where literally billions of global citizens will still have to get out of poverty and enter the consuming middle classes, don't you think that anyway it makes a lot of sense to get more energy and resource efficient," she said.
"Let's say that science, some decades from now, said 'we were wrong, it was not about climate', would it not in any case have been good to do many of things you have to do in order to combat climate change?."

The Danish commissioner also rejected public complaints over increases in electricity prices to subsidise renewable energies, such as wind farms, as unrealistic because, she said, increased competition over diminishing energy resources such as oil and gas will lead to higher bills.

"I believe that in a world with still more people, wanting still more growth for good reasons, the demand for energy, raw materials and resources will increase and so, over time so, over time, will the prices," she said.
"I think we have to realise that in the world of the 21st century for us to have the cheapest possible energy is not the answer."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/en...n-if-science-was-wrong-says-commissioner.html

So her logic is that the answer to the possibility that energy prices will rise in the future (based on a prediction that does not account for human ingenuity again), we should artificially raise energy prices now? :doh: I would like to point out that I totally support R&D for more efficient energy. That's logical. But subsidies are not working. There is no incentive to advance the tech and seek new ideas when you get a big check from the government no matter what. So far, it's just causing hardships for poor people.

About those higher energy prices, not very popular at the moment:

The price of electricity splits Germany. The majority of the population fears continue rising energy prices. But that does not bother the growing number of beneficiaries of the energy transition. After all, who has jumped a wind turbine, a solar or biogas plant on the subsidy carousel provides its own power and can bargain produce as much electricity as they want, because green power in the network always has priority and is also taken at a special price. Because the only way you can protect yourself against ever increasing electricity prices in Germany, shrinking the number of "normal" electricity consumers who have to pay as a tenant or trader for conveying madness.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/...-oekostrom-gefaehrdet-klimaziel-12573007.html

Support for EU Climate Policy Erodes Further on Czech Vote

Support for the European Union's climate and energy policy was eroded further Friday as the Czech Republic became the latest member to denounce subsidies for clean but costly renewable energy and pledged to double down on its use of fossil fuels.
http://stream.wsj.com/story/latest-headlines/SS-2-63399/SS-2-326504/
Australia's landslide election result seems to be bad news for the climate. Following the election of a new government, Australia is to abolish its emissions trading scheme, disband a climate advisory body and institute a carbon reduction policy that experts say will fail to meet its meagre target.

It will also scale back the country's embryonic National Broadband Network and direct funding away from research projects it deems "ridiculous".

The conservative Liberal-National coalition, headed by incoming prime minister Tony Abbott, triumphed at the polls this weekend. It ran for election with a core idea of "scrapping the carbon tax".

http://www.newscientist.com/article...s-up-climatechange-policies.html#.Ujhus9Jwqih
 
I never cease to be amazed at how politics is polluting the science on this. The IPCC is run by politicians anyway...but now their upcoming report is being massaged even further by more politicians from various countries.

It's astounding that their main concern is that evidence which does not support the theory must be minimized or explained away. This is the state of "climate science" today. Skeptics advance science in other fields, in climate science they are "denialists".

he IPCC report is expected to affirm the human link with greater certainty than ever, but the panel is under pressure to also address the recent lower rate of warming, which scientists say is likely due to heat going deep into the ocean and natural climate fluctuations.

"I think to not address it would be a problem because then you basically have the denialists saying, `Look the IPCC is silent on this issue,"' said Alden Meyer, of the Washington-based Union of Concerned Scientists.

In a leaked June draft of the report's summary from policy-makers, the IPCC said the rate of warming in 1998-2012 was about half the average rate since 1951. It cited natural variability in the climate system, as well as cooling effects from volcanic eruptions and a downward phase in solar activity.

But several governments that reviewed the draft objected to how the issue was tackled, in comments to the IPCC obtained by the AP.

Germany called for the reference to the slowdown to be deleted, saying a time span of 10-15 years was misleading in the context of climate change, which is measured over decades and centuries.

The U.S. also urged the authors to include the "leading hypothesis" that the reduction in warming is linked to more heat being transferred to the deep ocean.

Belgium objected to using 1998 as a starting year for any statistics. That year was exceptionally warm, so any graph showing global temperatures starting with 1998 looks flat, because most years since have been cooler. Using 1999 or 2000 as a starting year would yield a more upward-pointing curve.

Hungary worried the report would provide ammunition for skeptics.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/g...complicates-job-of-un-climate-panel-1.1860527

Interesting how "natural variability" is allowed into the conversation when there is a lack of warming. That factor is quickly forgotten when the climate warms though...then suddenly it's "human caused". I also wonder why 10-15 years is ok to cite as evidence when there is warming. (By the way Germany...it's been almost 17 years without warming now...not "10-15") One of the complaints about AGW theory is that it uses a small period of time. The last 30 years is a tiny window of time in climate terms. The current warming period is over 150 years old going by proxy records. Humans certainly didn't cause all that.

Contrast this with the attitude in other fields of science. No theory is immune to examination. Here is the way science works when politics are not a part of it:

Has the Big Bang theory been busted?
BY STAFF WRITERS
news.com.au
September 18, 2013 11:24AM

WHAT if we told you the Big Bang was a myth?

That's right. Everything we know about the universe may be wrong.

Cosmologists have speculated that the universe was created after a star collapsed into a black hole - a theory that helps to explain why it seems to be expanding in all directions.

The Big Bang theory suggests that the universe was created from a single point in the universe but despite years of research, nobody yet knows what triggered the eruption.

It also fails to explain why the Universe has an "almost completely uniform temperature."

"There does not seem to have been enough time since the birth of the cosmos for it to have reached temperature equilibrium," researchers explain in the scientific journal, Nature.

Astrophysicists from the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Waterloo, Canada have released a paper discussing a previous theory out of Germany that posited that the universe is a three-dimensional "membrane" floating through a four-dimensional "bulk universe".

A bulk universe is a very complicated concept out of string theory that puts forward the idea that space is a plane of infinite dimensions through which other planes of infinite dimensions float.

The team claimed that if the "bulk universe" contained four dimensional stars, some of them could collapse and cause black holes in the same way that stars in our universe do - they turn in supernovae, ejecting their outerlayers while their inner layers collapse into the black hole.

Black holes in our universe are spherical in shape and possess some kind of "membrane" that keep them that way. These "membranes" are known as "event horizons". Anything that passes through this event horizon is done for, because the gravitational pull is so great it makes escape impossible. In our universe only a two dimensional object is capable of becoming an event horizon within a black hole, Nature explained. Whereas in a bulk universe, the event horizon of a four dimensional black hole would have to be three dimensional, known as a "hypersphere".

Confused yet? We don't blame you.

In a nutshell this means that a star floating through a multidimensional plane got sucked into a black hole, half of it got swallowed up and the other half that survived spawned the creation of the universe.

The fact that our universe is expanding in all directions could be a sign simply of cosmic expansion, rather than as the origin of the universe itself, the researchers suggest.

"Astronomers measured that expansion and extrapolated back that the Universe must have begun with a Big Bang - but that is just a mirage," said team member Niayesh Afshordi.

However, the theory has some holes. (Get it, holes?)

So far it doesn't entirely answer how the expansion of the universe occurred.

The European Space Agency recorded slight fluctuations in the temperature of the universe and found that the cosmos contained imprints of radiation that matched predictions made in the Big Bang theory. Obviously this creates a discrepancy in the astrophysicists' research.

The scientists say they're going back to the drawing board to adjust their model.

Stay tuned. Everything we may know about the universe may be wrong.

http://mobile.news.com.au/technolog...uffer&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=Buffer

A Jewel at the Heart of Quantum Physics

By: Natalie Wolchover
September 17, 2013

Physicists have discovered a jewel-like geometric object that dramatically simplifies calculations of particle interactions and challenges the notion that space and time are fundamental components of reality.

“This is completely new and very much simpler than anything that has been done before,” said Andrew Hodges, a mathematical physicist at Oxford University who has been following the work.

The revelation that particle interactions, the most basic events in nature, may be consequences of geometry significantly advances a decades-long effort to reformulate quantum field theory, the body of laws describing elementary particles and their interactions. Interactions that were previously calculated with mathematical formulas thousands of terms long can now be described by computing the volume of the corresponding jewel-like “amplituhedron,” which yields an equivalent one-term expression.

“The degree of efficiency is mind-boggling,” said Jacob Bourjaily, a theoretical physicist at Harvard University and one of the researchers who developed the new idea. “You can easily do, on paper, computations that were infeasible even with a computer before.”

The new geometric version of quantum field theory could also facilitate the search for a theory of quantum gravity that would seamlessly connect the large- and small-scale pictures of the universe. Attempts thus far to incorporate gravity into the laws of physics at the quantum scale have run up against nonsensical infinities and deep paradoxes. The amplituhedron, or a similar geometric object, could help by removing two deeply rooted principles of physics: locality and unitarity.

“Both are hard-wired in the usual way we think about things,” said Nima Arkani-Hamed, a professor of physics at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, N.J., and the lead author of the new work, which he is presenting in talks and in a forthcoming paper. “Both are suspect.”

https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20130917-a-jewel-at-the-heart-of-quantum-physics/
 
Last edited:
Scientists say 95% chance, or "extremely likely," that climate change is mostly man made

It used to be "100%" then they changed it to "98%" so now it's 95%?

Personally I hate the term scientists as well. They should specifically ask people who work in climatology. Not every scientist is an expert in how the climate works so their opinion really doesn't hold much weight in the argument, it's sort of like saying because I know somebody who works at a high end restaurant that means they can cook gourmet meals.
 
http://www.montereyherald.com/news/...s-say-nothing-certain-but-global-warming-real

Scientists say 95% chance, or "extremely likely," that climate change is mostly man made
I was reading about the IPCC reports today and how my sister says she has really smart friends who say that NYC will be completely flooded within 10 years and it got me thinking of just how much I hate the people who are dominating the climate change discussion and the people who are running things like the IPCC, Greenpeace, etc.

Alarmists who do nothing but make these doomsday predictions (which almost never come true) are only emboldening stupid climate change troglodyte deniers. These stupid projections that always end up being way off takes away serious discussion on how to deal with climate change (which is real) responsibly (through sustainable development). The Greens are doing far more damage for the movement than helping it.
 
I was reading about the IPCC reports today and how my sister says she has really smart friends who say that NYC will be completely flooded within 10 years and it got me thinking of just how much I hate the people who are dominating the climate change discussion and the people who are running things like the IPCC, Greenpeace, etc.

Alarmists who do nothing but make these doomsday predictions (which almost never come true) are only emboldening stupid climate change troglodyte deniers. These stupid projections that always end up being way off takes away serious discussion on how to deal with climate change (which is real) responsibly (through sustainable development). The Greens are doing far more damage for the movement than helping it.

I'm not sure about New York but I know Miami is already having a problem with flooding and they said just 1 foot more than what it is now will have most of Miami underwater. A big problem they have fighting it is most of Miami is built on limestone so that's not conducive with being able to do much about the rising tide problem
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"