🇺🇸 Discussion: Guns, The Second Amendment, NRA - Part II

US News
I mean, the media isn't going to talk about the convenience store that didn't get robbed because the perp knew that everyone in the store was armed.
 
I'm talking about reported instances of someone brandishing or firing a gun in self defense.
 
2013 CDC study, looks like they're using 2008 numbers though:


Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.



Significantly older stats, admittedly, but another indicator:


In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to six states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Estimates based on CDC’s surveys confirm estimates for the same sets of states based on data from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995). Extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole CDC’s survey data imply that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.


Wasn't nationwide stats though, rather just Alaska, Colorado, Hawaii, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Montana, Ohio, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia, but it's something.
 
Come on everyone, we need less gun regulations so Americans can protect themselves from all the knife threats!

..okay.
 
Mace said:
Come on everyone, we need less gun regulations so Americans can protect themselves from all the knife threats!

..okay.
Click to expand...

No one said that but the gun was legal and the person had a permit so the hypothetical argument would be to protect what laws are there.

A woman was protected from a sexual assault attempt because someone else was legally armed and you want to spin it into a negative. Gross.
 
Holiday said:
No one said that but the gun was legal and the person had a permit so the hypothetical argument would be to protect what laws are there.

A woman was protected from a sexual assault attempt because someone else was legally armed and you want to spin it into a negative. Gross.
Click to expand...

Okay, "what laws are there" is describing the status quo, yes? So, you're using this incident to argue that we should keep the weaker gun regulations that we have in place now, right? Is that what you're saying? That the status quo - as it is now with relatively weak gun regulations - allows for good people to carry guns and to save women from situations such as this, and thus, we shouldn't regulate guns because cases likes this might happen and other women like this could be raped or hurt. Yes? That's your argument? That's basically a more complicated way of saying my earlier statement. "We need less gun regulations (i.e. as it is today) so Americans can protect themselves from all the knife threats (like the one you just showed).

So you basically did say that. I'm sorry that you're not happy with the humorous reduction, but your anger is at your own reasoning, not at me.

And, as far as trying to make it a negative, I'm not doing that at all. I just reject the use of it as a reason why we shouldn't regulate guns. It's a silly argument. Firstly, cause we can do both. We can regulate guns, AND make sure that good people who need them for self defense get them. To think otherwise, would be insinuating that gun regulations inevitably lead to gun bans... which.... although that's the numero uno gun rights talking point, isn't necessarily true at all. Second, because this isn't weighing any of the negatives of not having gun regulations. Yes, it might be true that regulating guns could lead to more knife deaths. But I'd argue it'd also lead to less gun deaths, and a net negative in deaths overall. Semi Automatic Assault Weapons are a little more effective at killing people in mass than knives are, you know? And there's a whole crap ton more gun deaths than there are knife deaths, right?

So yeah, I'm happy the woman is safe - absolutely. But if your point was that guns can be a useful tool against criminals. I think most of us already knew that, and I think it's obvious that your real point was that we shouldn't regulate guns because some people won't be able to defend themselves. No need for crocodile tears, friend.
 
All I did was post a news article and give it a little more detail. You're making a lot of assumptions, including that I'm "angry" and that your early response was "humorous".
 
When you called the argument gross, I assumed that you were angry. Agreed. It's okay... we disagree on the issue, and i had a jab at how I view your point. That's all. No worries.
 
Don't post an example of things going against his assumptions, Holiday. We don't do that on The Hype. Get in line. Etc.
 
Another shooting. At least this time no one is dead (yet).

Wisconsin shooting leaves 3 victims injured, and the suspect is in critical condition

Three people were wounded Wednesday morning when a gunman opened fire in a small Wisconsin city, police said.

The suspect was also injured and is in critical condition, Middleton officials said.

The motive for the shooting, which unfolded in a building housing several businesses, is not yet known.

Middleton Police Chief Charles Foulke said at an afternoon press conference that the building where the shooting occurred had been cleared, and an earlier lockdown was lifted. No other suspects were being sought, Foulke said.

According to Foulke, the three victims were being treated for gunshot wounds at a local hospital. Foulke said officers engaged the suspect, and he was shot by officers and is at a local hospital.

Earlier, police had said four people were wounded in addition to the gunman. Foulke clarified at his news conference that three were wounded in addition to the gunman.

About 50 police cars plus the FBI responded to the scene in the 1800 block of Deming Way, Keely Arthur of CNN affiliate WISC reported.

Middleton, a suburb of the state capital Madison, is a city of about 17,000 residents.

"My heart goes out to the people involved in the shooting," Middleton Mayor Gurdip Brar said. "You never would think this type of thing would happen in your city. Really, so sad that this happened here."
Click to expand...
CNN
 
Details. Also is the third mass shooting in a 24 hour period. Go US!

A woman killed three people at a drugstore distribution center Thursday in Harford County, Maryland, before shooting herself twice, officials said.

A source close to the investigation said the woman was a disgruntled employee. She shot herself in the head in an apparent suicide attempt, but was unsuccessful so she shot herself again, the source said.

A law enforcement official briefed on the incident, who provided the casualty toll for CNN, said the suspect was at some point a security guard at the Rite Aid support facility where the shooting occurred.

The suspect used a single handgun, Sheriff Jeffrey Gahler said at a news conference. The gunwoman is in custody and in critical condition at a local hospital, he said.

No law enforcement officers fired shots during their response, he said. Johns Hopkins Bayview Medical Center received four patients with "priority one gunshot wounds," said spokeswoman Kristin Mears. She declined to provide further details, including the victims' conditions, until their families were notified.

Rite Aid spokeswoman Susan Henderson said roughly 1,000 employees work at the distribution center, where products are received and processed for delivery.

"The shooting happened adjacent to the primary building," she said. "What I understand is the location is secure."
Click to expand...
CNN
 
Holiday said:
No one said that but the gun was legal and the person had a permit so the hypothetical argument would be to protect what laws are there.

A woman was protected from a sexual assault attempt because someone else was legally armed and you want to spin it into a negative. Gross.
Click to expand...

I get what you're trying to say and agree that you weren't trying to say we need less gun regulations. But I do think while this is a nice story, it's a drop in the bucket compared to how many lives aren't saved because of the proliferation of guns in the hands of the public.
 
 
 
MaceB said:
These dozen or so anecdotal instances really helped me to appreciate that we don't need to do anything about the thousands of other gun deaths every year. Thanks!

Do you not think that I could come up with just as many or more instances of people being wrongfully killed by guns?
Click to expand...

On the previous page I cited statistics from the federal government which note a conservative estimate of 108,000 defensive uses of guns per year. That number is 2-3 times the number of annual gun deaths (homicide, suicide, accidental).

So no, you couldn't come up with more instances of people being wrongfully killed by guns than he could instances of defensive uses.
 
MaceB said:
These dozen or so anecdotal instances really helped me to appreciate that we don't need to do anything about the thousands of other gun deaths every year. Thanks!

Do you not think that I could come up with just as many or more instances of people being wrongfully killed by guns?
Click to expand...

Someone was arguing defensive gun use was rare, I pointed out it wasnt. All of those stories are from a two week period give or take. You can post whatever you want and I'll gladly do it again.
 
Handsome Rob said:
On the previous page I cited statistics from the federal government which note a conservative estimate of 108,000 defensive uses of guns per year. That number is 2-3 times the number of annual gun deaths (homicide, suicide, accidental).

So no, you couldn't come up with more instances of people being wrongfully killed by guns than he could instances of defensive uses.
Click to expand...

Here's an article poking holes in that kind of analysis.
How Often Do People Use Guns In Self-Defense?

In addition, it doesn't matter. Just because there are good uses for guns, that doesn't mean we can't have common sense gun regulation. Once again, gun rights activists want to make this debate about no gun regulations vs. a complete reversal of the 2nd amendment. Problem is... there's no realistic plan on the table to do that.
Meanwhile, the gun lobby has bribed officials to make it impossible to scientifically study gun deaths... so these kinds of numbers are hazy.
 
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