Discussion: Illegal Immigration, Immigration Reform, and Other Citizenship Issues II

[Kelly]

...various news outlets are reporting that President Obama is preparing to make a major immigration announcement next week.

Yeah, I love his bipartisanship here....

"The President was pleased to hear from CHC members and noted that they share the same vision, including that any legislation must include a path to earned citizenship," the administration in a statement. "The President further noted that there is no excuse for stalling or delay."
Seven members of Congress were present at the meeting, including Congressional Hispanic Caucus Chairman Ruben Hinojosa (D-Texas), Sen. Robert Menendez (D-N.J.), Immigration Task Force Chairman Luis Gutierrez (D-Ill.) and Chairman of the Democratic Caucus Xavier Becerra (D-Calif.).

How about including Rubio, someone who has ACTUALLY spent the time trying to come to a compromise.

Rubio has written a bill that is a really good compromise, but will Obama even look at it? Oh hell no.......it won't get the time of day.



Just ridiculous....there is a place to "start" and probably work quickly to a solid bill, and it won't happen.

 

[The Question]

I've never understood why we can't just change the current immigration laws? It seems to me that the problem is lots of people are breaking the law, but I don't see what positive outcome that law and it's enforcement has. Why not simply make it easier to come to this country and become a citizen here legally? Can someone please explain this to me?

 

[Kelly]

I've never understood why we can't just change the current immigration laws? It seems to me that the problem is lots of people are breaking the law, but I don't see what positive outcome that law and it's enforcement has. Why not simply make it easier to come to this country and become a citizen here legally? Can someone please explain this to me?

Because we have close to 20 million that are here illegally...overstayed visa's etc....

You allow these people, ahead, or in the same line as those that are doing it the right way from the beginning is pretty crappy IMO. I do believe we need to allow them a way to become citizens...(the problem is, not all of those 20 million WANT TO BE CITIZENS) they only want our jobs.

So yes, for those in that 20 million that want to become a citizen, yes there are things we can do to make it easier for them to become citizens. BUT FIRST, AND FOREMOST...the borders have to be "truly secured" so that we can work on the 20 million here, getting them work visa's, putting them on the road to citizenship, etc. But, unless the borders are secured, nothing changes.

We did this back in Reagan's time for 1 million....but we didn't secure the borders, which is now why we have close to 20 million. See the problem?

 

[Darthphere]

Because we have close to 20 million that are here illegally...overstayed visa's etc....

You allow these people, ahead, or in the same line as those that are doing it the right way from the beginning is pretty crappy IMO. I do believe we need to allow them a way to become citizens...(the problem is, not all of those 20 million WANT TO BE CITIZENS) they only want our jobs.

So yes, for those in that 20 million that want to become a citizen, yes there are things we can do to make it easier for them to become citizens. BUT FIRST, AND FOREMOST...the borders have to be "truly secured" so that we can work on the 20 million here, getting them work visa's, putting them on the road to citizenship, etc. But, unless the borders are secured, nothing changes.

We did this back in Reagan's time for 1 million....but we didn't secure the borders, which is now why we have close to 20 million. See the problem?

How many illegal immigrant teachers do we have?

 

[The Question]

Because we have close to 20 million that are here illegally...overstayed visa's etc....

You allow these people, ahead, or in the same line as those that are doing it the right way from the beginning is pretty crappy IMO. I do believe we need to allow them a way to become citizens...(the problem is, not all of those 20 million WANT TO BE CITIZENS) they only want our jobs.

So yes, for those in that 20 million that want to become a citizen, yes there are things we can do to make it easier for them to become citizens. BUT FIRST, AND FOREMOST...the borders have to be "truly secured" so that we can work on the 20 million here, getting them work visa's, putting them on the road to citizenship, etc. But, unless the borders are secured, nothing changes.

We did this back in Reagan's time for 1 million....but we didn't secure the borders, which is now why we have close to 20 million. See the problem?

Not really.

You say that putting undocumented workers ahead of people doing it "the right way" is crappy and I don't totally understand that. What makes that way right, other than it being the legal procedure we have in place? Sure, if we completely change the process to make it easier for people who've circumvented it, it will probably make the people who didn't feel like they wasted their time, but that seems less important to me than.

Why not just change what the right way is? Why not make the entire process easier? Why does the border need to be secure? It seems to me that we need it to be secure to guard against illegal immigrants, but if we make it easier to become a legal immigrant across the board then I don't see why we'd need that anymore.

 

[Kelly]

How many illegal immigrant teachers do we have?

Those are usually found fairly quickly in the public schools. Not sure on private and universities...probably quite a few in universities. But, for the most part universities have "fellowships" some overstay them, most I think keep them up to date.

We have had 3 here in my district, 2 were simply let go, doubtful they went back to Mexico. We have one right now from Guatemala, he simply made a mistake on his visa, so he has gone back and is getting it straightened out we are holding his job for him here, he will probably be back in about a month.

 

[Marx]

The current immigration system is broken...putting a band-aid on it here and there isn't going to cut it. The borders definitely do need to be secured but I don't think any solution is foolproof.

I completely agree with Kelly that a path to citizenship has to be part of the plan. There is no way to deport upwards of twenty million people. There is also no way all of these people will "self-deport" as Romney once suggested.

 

[Kelly]

Not really.

You say that putting undocumented workers ahead of people doing it "the right way" is crappy and I don't totally understand that. What makes that way right, other than it being the legal procedure we have in place? Sure, if we completely change the process to make it easier for people who've circumvented it, it will probably make the people who didn't feel like they wasted their time, but that seems less important to me than.

Why not just change what the right way is? Why not make the entire process easier? Why does the border need to be secure? It seems to me that we need it to be secure to guard against illegal immigrants, but if we make it easier to become a legal immigrant across the board then I don't see why we'd need that anymore.

Really???? how about, the first group came ILLEGALLY, and the 2nd group came and are trying to go through the process legally from the start. Really? you think ANYONE should go ahead of those that actually are trying to do this the way it is supposed to be done? ok......

Because the people here RIGHT NOW, legally, going through the process LEGALLY, RIGHT NOW, should not be the ones that should be penalized by ANY CHANGES....remember THEY ARE FOLLOWING THE LAW.

From what you are saying, if you are following the law now...and are in the middle of the process, you have to go to the back of the line.....because we have people that have been here illegally for 20 years, that get to go in front of you. That is BS......

Yes make the process easier, but don't penalize those that legally came in, and are going through the process as it is now....

 

[The Question]

Really???? how about, the first group came ILLEGALLY, and the 2nd group came and are trying to go through the process legally from the start. Really? you think ANYONE should go ahead of those that actually are trying to do this the way it is supposed to be done? ok......

Because the people here RIGHT NOW, legally, going through the process LEGALLY, RIGHT NOW, should not be the ones that should be penalized by ANY CHANGES....remember THEY ARE FOLLOWING THE LAW.

From what you are saying, if you are following the law now...and are in the middle of the process, you have to go to the back of the line.....because we have people that have been here illegally for 20 years, that get to go in front of you. That is BS......

Yes make the process easier, but don't penalize those that legally came in, and are going through the process as it is now....

I never said anything about anyone going ahead of anyone. I never said anything about anyone going to the back of any lines. I said the process of becoming a citizen should be much easier than it is now. That means people who are here illegally should be able to become citizens very easily. That also means people who are working through the system should be able to become citizens very easily.

I don't understand where the idea of anyone being "put to the back of the line" is coming from.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I think you kind of have to institute some kind of amnesty for the ones that are here now, but bottom line is securing the borders. In my mind that's the first step that trumps all others. The ones that are here though, in my mind took advantage of a good situation, a situation that needs to be changed, but you can't penalize them much for waltzing past our borders, we practically allowed that to occur, that's on us.

I think that's also why we need to start drawing down overseas in a big way. Getting the military back on our own soil will allow us to have access to more military resources, which is exactly what'll be best for securing the borders.

 

[Schlosser85]

I agree with Kelly.

The way the system is now, intentionally or just out of laziness and apathy, it makes it easier to be an illegal ALIEN (NOT "immigrant", btw), then to obey our laws and do things the right way.

And that, like many, many other things in our legal and government system, is ass-backwards. It rewards people for being illegal aliens and makes it hard for aspiring legal immigrants, again probably not by intent, but by laziness and apathy.

If you are here illegally, you are NOT an immigrant, and you are NOT an "undocumented American", you are an illegal alien and by definition a criminal.

Unfortunately, it's simply not feasible to deport God-only-knows how many tens of millions of illegal aliens we have in this country over decades of lackadaisical non-enforcement of our immigration laws, so I am reluctantly forced to acknowledge that some sort of path to citizenship/amnesty program is needed.

 

[Kelly]

I never said anything about anyone going ahead of anyone. I never said anything about anyone going to the back of any lines. I said the process of becoming a citizen should be much easier than it is now. That means people who are here illegally should be able to become citizens very easily. That also means people who are working through the system should be able to become citizens very easily.

I don't understand where the idea of anyone being "put to the back of the line" is coming from.

STEP ONE: Those that are already in the process of gaining citizenship are processed and have citizenship within 3 months. In that same period of time the border is TOTALLY CLOSED except to those with ALREADY PROCESSED "travel visas", "work visas", "school visas" that are up to date. Nothing else is processed for that 3 months. Borders are secured with adequate ARMY RESERVES, until enough Boarder Patrol is hired and trained. This has to happen before anything else can take place. Or we are simply using buckets to try and empty a boat that is taking on water faster than the buckets can throw it out.

STEP TWO: When the above have been processed and citizenship given...THEN, those that during that 3 months period have come forward, filled out the paperwork that proves they have been here over 20 years, paid taxes, no felony arrests, and have family that was BORN HERE...are processed first and quickly.

STEP THREE: Those that have been here 10 to 19 years and can prove the above are processed....

STEP FOUR: Those that have been here 5 - 9 years and can prove the above are processed....

and so on....

IF WITHIN THE FIRST YEAR OF THIS TAKING PLACE, YOU DID NOT TAKE THE TIME TO EVEN BEGIN THIS PROCESS, YOU NEVER CAME FORWARD, YOU HAVE COMMITTED A FELONY CRIME, ETC....YOU ARE IMMEDIATELY DEPORTED AND YOU CAN BEGIN YOUR LEGAL PROCESS FROM YOUR HOME COUNTRY....and it will be processed WHEN IT CAN BE PROCESSED.

Now of course there are many details that can be worked out within those steps....but that is the


If they want to have an Amnesty program, that is the only way I would be for it....

 

[Schlosser85]

^ I would be okay with the above.

 

[Kelly]

^ I would be okay with the above.

There are some details I didn't mention....FOR INSTANCE, if you are single and have lived here for 20+ years, etc....then of course they would be part of that as well, but I emphasized those that have had children in this country simply because their children are citizens, are a part of the school system, etc.

And there are certain things you could do to speed your process up further.....join the military, get your GED and begin a path of high education, whether it is a 4 year college, or tech school, certifications, etc....

WE HAVE TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THOSE THAT TRULY WANT TO BE CITIZENS, OR THOSE THAT ARE JUST HERE ILLEGALLY TO WORK. If you have no intention of becoming a citizen, and you let your work visa expire, or NEVER HAD ONE.....then good bye, unless you are willing to come forward and work on renewing the visa. If you never had one, then good bye you have to start the process from your home country.

 

[Marx]

I agree. A lot of illegals work under the table and send the money back to their families in mexico.

 

[Kelly]

I agree. A lot of illegals work under the table and send the money back to their families in mexico.

Helllooooo, I live in Houston....lol

THOSE, should not be here...plain and simple. That is why I proposed the part that you either get a proper work visa, begin the process of becoming a citizen, or be deported. Those should be their choices.

Will some fall through the cracks? Sure...but I think the part in the proposed bill right now that REALLY HITS BUSINESSES HARD, will help with this problem.

You start fining the hell out of these businesses, heck we'll fix our deficit in no time. lol

Legalize marijuana and tax it, and fine businesses heavily who use illegal aliens as workers....deficit taken care of ....t:

 

[Marx]

I'm sure it's even worse in Houston! I really think that the businesses who hire illegals should be heavily fined as should the landlords who rent to them. If you cut the housing and the money, it would really help.

 

[Kelly]

I'm sure it's even worse in Houston! I really think that the businesses who hire illegals should be heavily fined as should the landlords who rent to them. If you cut the housing and the money, it would really help.

I definitely think so, and hiring people to simply check those things out...hey more employment.

Oh lord, here in Houston it is horrible....they stand outside Home Depots, just off their property and wait. I'm not sure how big a problem housing is....I think most probably live with friends or family members that are documented or are citizens. I know that my apartments are VERY CLEAR, and VERY tough on how many people are living in the apartment. They check that often....

 

[Holiday]

From my perspective, it is naive to think American workers can step right into the jobs illegals vacate when these businesses are cracked down on. I worked at a chicken plant early last year and they could not keep people on. The best workers out there were the work release inmates. That type of work is not something your average person who has been sitting around collecting unemployment checks for awhile can step right in and do. Right now I'm doing janitorial. Talking with a regional manager recently, I mentioned I had been with them almost 8 months. He said, "Wow, that's a long time employee for us". Those guys standing outside Home Depot? They work cheaper than the American guy, and likely just as skilled. If I hire them to fix my deck, I got more money to spend elsewhere.

Too long, didn't read; kicking these workers out is more likely to hurt these businesses in America than help.

 

[Holiday]

I agree. A lot of illegals work under the table and send the money back to their families in mexico.

They also spend their money here in America, buying food, cars, and houses.

 

[Kelly]

They also spend their money here in America, buying food, cars, and houses.

I know quite a few families that are here illegally, I've known 100s of them over the 22 years that I've taught....and none of them own a home here. They may rent, they may pay a portion of the rent, mortgage, etc....but they do not own the home.

With that said, spending your money here doesn't mean we should allow you to stay here illegally, without even "trying" to move towards a work visa, citizenship, etc....

 

[Darthphere]

Well like you and others have said we have to fix the path to citizenship first. It took my parents 13 years to get their residency and another 5 after that to get their citizenship after coming here illegally in 85. Not to mention the amount of money spent. I'm not saying they should just give citizenships away at the airport but it's definitely very difficult and for a lot of people who you might throw under that "not even trying" umbrella, almost impossible.

 

[Kelly]

Well like you and others have said we have to fix the path to citizenship first. It took my parents 13 years to get their residency and another 5 after that to get their citizenship after coming here illegally in 85. Not to mention the amount of money spent. I'm not saying they should just give citizenships away at the airport but it's definitely very difficult and for a lot of people who you might throw under that "not even trying" umbrella, almost impossible.

I know Darth, I have always thought that the time and money that had to be spent was ridiculous. And lawyers that prey on these families are disgusting IMO...It is embarrassing to this country IMO. We are a country of laws, that need to be followed....but damn, don't shoot the person in the foot every turn while they are trying to follow those laws.

 

[Darthphere]

I know Darth, I have always thought that the time and money that had to be spent was ridiculous. And lawyers that prey on these families are disgusting IMO...It is embarrassing to this country IMO. We are a country of laws, that need to be followed....but damn, don't shoot the person in the foot every turn while they are trying to follow those laws.

Yeah, my family was very close to being deported as well during the immigration hearing (I was the only one in my family that was a naturalized citizen). To the point where I remember being 8 or 9 and my parents talking to me about going to Nicaragua or staying here with my aunt.

 

[Kelly]

Yeah, my family was very close to being deported as well during the immigration hearing (I was the only one in my family that was a naturalized citizen). To the point where I remember being 8 or 9 and my parents talking to me about going to Nicaragua or staying here with my aunt.

Back when Bush went through those couple of months of bloviating about deportations, cleaning up the country, etc.....I remember my students, extremely upset because most were born here, and MANY had never been back to Mexico, their entire family lived here....they barely spoke Spanish. They kept telling me....Miss C.....that is not my country.....they were scared to death.