Discussion: Iraq II - Part 2

[Marvolo]

The point, obviously, is that Yazadi resistance against ISIS is futile and will end in their extinction. American/British/NATO forces are much better equipped to eliminate ISIS without excessive loss of life.

Why is Yazidi resistance futile? There are hundreds of thousands of them. Can we not get them artillery and weapons?

 

[regwec]

There were millions of Jews in central Europe in the 1940s. Why couldn't they have prevented American boys having to go to war by standing up for themselves, huh?

 

[Marvolo]

There were millions of Jews in central Europe in the 1940s. Why couldn't they have prevented American boys having to go to war by standing up for themselves, huh?

IS is not the Nazi military and we arent talking about a bunch of Jews crammed into fortified ghettos in the middle of modern cities occupied by an advanced european army and government.

So how about you answer my question instead of deflecting. Why cant we arm them? Why is it futile? Cause some might die? People die in war. If they want to keep their way of life or land and homes some of them are going to have to be willing to shed some blood and possibly die.

 

[regwec]

We're talking about a marginal minority facing an opponent against whom they stand no chance alone.

You appear to be indifferent to their extermination so long as the possibility of a single American casualty is excluded.

Western recklessness has precipitated the circumstances leading to this genocide; Western cowardice cannot now wash away our responsibility for those at risk.

"Give 'em guns 'n' such" is a policy that had failed miserably so far.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The problem is that there is no simple solution. Even if American forces are sent in, and devastate ISIS, it's not a solution.

American forces can't stay there forever.

I think it really would just be best to relocate these endangered minorities. The US has done similar relocations in the past.

 

[regwec]

Maybe. But I don't think a lengthy occupation with a view to nation building is all that could be considered. Simply put, I think that ISIS needs to be stopped and crippled, allowing the other forces in play to roll it up. NATO could do that in a couple of weeks.

Instead, though, we'll just let ISIS build an empire of genocide, rape and misery. Because America.

 

[Marvolo]

We're talking about a marginal minority facing an opponent against whom they stand no chance alone.

You appear to be indifferent to their extermination so long as the possibility of a single American casualty is excluded.

Western recklessness has precipitated the circumstances leading to this genocide; Western cowardice cannot now wash away our responsibility for those at risk.

"Give 'em guns 'n' such" is a policy that had failed miserably so far.

Indifferent? No. Im just not looking at this emotionally. This is the situation. It is what it is. The fact is these people have a malicious force coming towards them and I dont accept that they are entirely incapable of pulling a trigger and defending their homes land and family.

I think they need to play a part in the fight. Just like i would expect every able american to play a part if we are ever invaded by a psychoic band of madmen. Besides we cant defend and protect every single community in Iraq so some of them will have to fight, join IS, or lay down and die. Id rather they fight.

But lets say we did go in an wiped out ISIS entirely? What then? There would still be no infrastructure in the country. There would still be sympathisers of IS who view us and people of varying beliefs as enemies. So in time we'd be right back here watching another bunch of madmen marching across the middle east doing what IS is doing. We cant always be the one sacrificing our soldiers for this fight. The people in Iraq have to learn to fight their own battles at some point. If they cant even do it now then when will they?

 

[herakles]

ISIS's emergence has proven that President Obama's foreign policy in the Middle East is a absolute failure!

IMO the US should arm Jordan and the Kurds to the teeth! To hell with Al Malaki! He is worthless! Time for Iraq to be Balkanized! Put all the Religious minorities in with the Kurds, since they are the only ones who are trying to defend them!

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

You're blaming Obama solely for ISIS?

Who destabilized Iraq to begin with?

You think the hatred that created ISIS was going to evaporate with more US troops in the area?

 

[herakles]

You're blaming Obama solely for ISIS?

His Blind support of the Arab Spring and arming of "rebels" help create ISIS.

Who destabilized Iraq to begin with?

Obama pulling out before making sure the Iraqi army could fight it's way out of a wet paper page.

Again didn't Obama backing the Arab Spring which lead to several Arab governments either falling or nearly falling and to emergence of ISIS?

Also the last time I checked the Arab Spring happened after the Bush Administration left power.

You think the hatred that created ISIS was going to evaporate with more US troops in the area?

So you think sitting on your hands while thousands of Religious, and Ethnic minorities being sold into sex slavery, raped, murdered, and enslaved is acceptable. Or do you think non action will sate the savage, murderous appetite of ISIS?. This lack of action has only encourage the atrocities committed by ISIS to increase!

 

[MrCandy]

Obama pulling out before making sure the Iraqi army could fight it's way out of a wet paper page.

The Iraqi government MADE the US withdraw from Iraq in 2011, we didn't have a choice because the US couldn't reach an agreement with them to leave behind a certain number of troops. The Iraqis wanted us out and so did a huge majority of the American people.

Turn off Fox News.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

His Blind support of the Arab Spring and arming of "rebels" help create ISIS.

You think the Arab Spring could've been prevented with US intervention. Wouldn't such intervention on the behalf of oppressive regimes just be a much bigger recruitment tool for terrorist groups?

Obama pulling out before making sure the Iraqi army could fight it's way out of a wet paper page.

The Iraq Army was never going to be Seal Team Six. Staying in Iraq for another 5 to 10 years would just prolong the inevitable. The country is far too divided and distrustful of America for our puppet government to successfully suppress sectarian violence, terrorism, and emerging insurgencies.

Again didn't Obama backing the Arab Spring which lead to several Arab governments either falling or nearly falling and to emergence of ISIS?

How much of the Arab Spring did Obama support? Air support to fight Gaddafi? You think if Obama stayed neutral ISIS would've never existed?

Also the last time I checked the Arab Spring happened after the Bush Administration left power.

Are absolutely certain the Arab Spring would've still happened without the "liberation" of Iraq?

So you think sitting on your hands while thousands of Religious, and Ethnic minorities being sold into sex slavery, raped, murdered, and enslaved is acceptable. Or do you think non action will sate the savage, murderous appetite of ISIS?. This lack of action has only encourage the atrocities committed by ISIS to increase!

Not many people want to send troops to fight on the ground against ISIS. Is that what you are suggesting Obama should do?

 

[regwec]

I really think some Western campaign on the ground is inevitable. Far apart from the immorality of sitting by while crimes against humanity are committed with glee, it is pragmatic to end this depressing chapter in history before a regional power uses it to realise hegemonic status. The fault line in Persian and Sunni Arab sectarian antagonism lies somewhere on the Tigris. Powerful neighbours could and would be sucked in, to counter one another using proxies.

The conditions are very similar to those underlying the Thirty Years War. Except with the possibility of nuclear war.

 

[hippie_hunter]

While the Obama Administration does deserve some criticism for their strategy against ISIS, giving them the bulk of the blame is absolutely ridiculous given the complexity of the situation and the fact that there is no positive viable option for the Administration.

 

[hippie_hunter]

His Blind support of the Arab Spring and arming of "rebels" help create ISIS.

His support of the Arab Spring wasn't blind. It was more like he was caught in between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, not supporting American allies/associates like Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, etc. makes the United States look like a poor ally that they would abandon allies when the going gets tough. On the other hand, it's never a good idea to support authoritarian regimes like Hosni Mubarak's Egypt and Muammar al-Gaddafi's Libya. Also, the United States has never really been on good terms with Bashir al-Assad's Syria, so of course the United States was going to support the Arab Spring there.

Also this idea of him blindly arming rebels is a falsehood. Hillary Clinton and other hawks within the Obama Administration supported blindly arming rebels in Syria. But Obama shut them down on the grounds that you're specifically stating.

Obama pulling out before making sure the Iraqi army could fight it's way out of a wet paper page.

Something that Obama was legally required to do thanks to an agreement signed before Obama was even elected. I believe that agreement was signed by one......George W. Bush. While Obama deserves criticism for failing to try to convince the Iraqi government to revise the deal in order to allow a stronger US presence by the deadline, but in the end, he was still following a policy that he was legally required to perform that was set forth by his predecessor.

Again didn't Obama backing the Arab Spring which lead to several Arab governments either falling or nearly falling and to emergence of ISIS?

Ummmmm......no. Even without the Arab Spring, ISIS would have still emerged. This has been almost a hundred years in the making and all the Arab Spring did, was just speed things up.

Also the last time I checked the Arab Spring happened after the Bush Administration left power.

A completely irrelevant point since the rise of ISIS goes well beyond just the Arab Spring

So you think sitting on your hands while thousands of Religious, and Ethnic minorities being sold into sex slavery, raped, murdered, and enslaved is acceptable. Or do you think non action will sate the savage, murderous appetite of ISIS?. This lack of action has only encourage the atrocities committed by ISIS to increase!

Non-action isn't going to stop ISIS from committing their atrocities, but frankly I am in the opinion that in order for the Middle East to gain eventual stability, the region needs to completely burn to the ground to begin with due to the West's constant interference completely ruining the region.

 

[regwec]

I found this interesting.

I wish people would be more honest about what happened in 2001-2003. Misremembering the past lets the politicians of the time off the hook for misleading the public.

 

[Destructus86]

I really think some Western campaign on the ground is inevitable. Far apart from the immorality of sitting by while crimes against humanity are committed with glee, it is pragmatic to end this depressing chapter in history before a regional power uses it to realise hegemonic status. The fault line in Persian and Sunni Arab sectarian antagonism lies somewhere on the Tigris. Powerful neighbours could and would be sucked in, to counter one another using proxies.

The conditions are very similar to those underlying the Thirty Years War. Except with the possibility of nuclear war.

Yup. A ground war has to happen. It's not ideal...but what happens in the middle east will effect us eventually. Especially if ISIS continues to take over regions.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

ISIS deserves to die more than any enemy we've had since WW2.

But I don't see an exit strategy. Look at the Iraq War and the Afghanistan War. 10 years later and how much closer are we to winning? ISIS will be even harder to fully defeat.

 

[Marvolo]

ISIS deserves to die more than any enemy we've had since WW2.

But I don't see an exit strategy. Look at the Iraq War and the Afghanistan War. 10 years later and how much closer are we to winning? ISIS will be even harder to fully defeat.

They will defeat themselves eventually.

Even if isis were to take over entirely in the Middle East I doubt they would last long. They dont have any internal stability or infrastructure to establish any sort of long lasting state or caliphate. Theyd start squabbling amongst each other and eventually theyd be fighting each other. And without infrastructure and the ability to keep electricity and clean running water flowing any city or town they try to run will collapse into a mess. They wouldnt have any sort of international support or trade which they would need in the long run. Their dream that they are fighting for is just that a pipe dream. They are too stupid and out of touch with reality to realize it.

In short, they are no Ibn Saud. They dont have what it takes to do what he did.

 

[chamber-music]

Watched documentary Escape From ISIS which aired on Channel 4 last night in the UK and PBS on Tuesday in the U.S.

Holy cow was it depressing and sickening

There was secretly filmed footage of inside IS territory and horrific interviews with women who escaped IS. Mass rapes, public executions, slavery, whippings and people being stoned to death. Anyone who disobeys draconian IS rules meets a terrible fate.

One Yazidis woman talked about how she and other girls were was brutal raped. Some of her friends committed suicide. The IS men said if any more of them killed themselves they would feed their bodies to the dogs.

One Kurdish lawyer who is helping women escape from IS through a modern day underground railway type set up said 80% of the women he helped escape had been raped and one guy secretly filming showed video of his friend being executed in a public square.

Here is the moment 34 women and children escaped.
[YT]/WSDPCKY08AI[/YT]

 

[regwec]

I can't handle it.

 

[Smashlilman]

ISIS's emergence has proven that President Obama's foreign policy in the Middle East is a absolute failure!

IMO the US should arm Jordan and the Kurds to the teeth! To hell with Al Malaki! He is worthless! Time for Iraq to be Balkanized! Put all the Religious minorities in with the Kurds, since they are the only ones who are trying to defend them!

So what do you do when those heavy armed Kurds start handing out some of there arms to Kurdish Terrorist in Turkey and the non ISIS Kurdish Terrorist in Syria? They defeat ISIS and then in 10 years you have new problem to deal with.

 

[regwec]

Kurdish terrorists in Turkey? Do you mean separatists?

 

[Smashlilman]

Kurdish terrorists in Turkey? Do you mean separatists?

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

 

[regwec]

We all know that saying, but Turkey has given aid to ISIS against the Kurds. I cannot devise a moral argument that the Kurds should be denied their self-determination.