Discussion: Iraq II - Part 2

[Thundercrack85]

They're not unstoppable. The Iraqi military just can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Senior officers take their clothes off and run at the sight of a black flag.

France put up more of a fight against Germany in their valiant six week struggle in World War II.

 

[Asteroid-Man]

Question for those who were in favour of the Iraq war ten years ago....

In hindsight, do you concede that it was a horrible decision?

 

[regwec]

At the time, I was so strongly in favour of ousting Saddam that I took on a 200+ student anti-war protest, and trolled them into apoplexia. Just me, an American flag, and a hatred of tyranny.

In hindsight, I maintain that the world is no worse for the end of the Ba'athist regime. Almost every decision made by the US and its allies after the collapse of the Iraqi army, however, was misjudged. Every idiot knew that a state could not be demolished in a few weeks then rebuilt in a day.

It is very difficult to draw a direct line between the West's idiocy in Iraq and the rise of ISIS, however. ISIS seems to be generated and maintained by a number of factors, including weak states, Islamic racism/sectarianism, popular discontent with established regimes, rejection of modernity, and the rape/murder tourism of spoilt Western youths.

It you asked me whether I would swap the Islamic State for Ba'athist Iraq then, yes, of course I would. But I think there is a long and winding road between the two.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I was against the war, but for different reasons than most.

But even then it was somewhat reserved. Saddam and his regime needed to go. The problem was that it was done for illegitimate reasons. And the occupation was incredibly mishandled, making all of the American deaths in vain.

Essentially it's a war started on bad intelligence and lies.

Bush should have resigned in disgrace and be investigated for corruption.

 

[regwec]

Tony Blair should be tried at the Hague. So should Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld. Sending democratic nations to war on a fabric of lies, causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and incalculable human misery, and irrevocably weakening the deterrent effect of Western might, are all acts of criminal malfeasance.

 

[chamber-music]

2000 Iraqi troops gave up Ramadi to 200 IS soldiers!

All that training and equipment we gave the Iraqi army seems like a waste of time.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

What a bunch of cowards….

 

[Thundercrack85]

And I thought the Iraqis reached a low point when they surrendered to journalists in 1991.

 

[Marvolo]

2000 Iraqi troops gave up Ramadi to 200 IS soldiers!

All that training and equipment we gave the Iraqi army seems like a waste of time.

Not to mention every time they surrender all that equipment is falling into IS hands.

If a republican gets elected in 2016, our troops are going to be fighting this war, because apparently there isnt a single soldier or ounce of shame in all the men in all of Iraq combined.

I don't want us fighting Iraq's battles for it. If they want to be conquered by psychopaths and let their women and daughters be raped and sold as sex slaves rather than fight for their country IDK if we can even help them. They've already accepted defeat.

 

[regwec]

You shouldn't confuse those communities in Iraq most at risk with the Iraqi state which is insistent to their fate. Iraqi Christians, in particular, are defenceless and on the cusp of extinction.

 

[Marvolo]

You shouldn't confuse those communities in Iraq most at risk with the Iraqi state which is insistent to their fate. Iraqi Christians, in particular, are defenceless and on the cusp of extinction.

I'm not. Those communities are going to have to fight. Some probably are, I assume. If the rest of the communities tho want to keep the country they need to join the military or fight as militia. If they wont do that then they might as well make a run for it or convert to IS brand of crazy because just setting around waiting for IS to roll up to their village and hoping the state will protect them from IS isn't working out too well.

The U.S. can't go in and train each and every village and community and the state military is apparently a bunch of *****es playing dress up, and we aren't going to fight this war with our troops so Iraq as a whole better figure something out and quick.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It might save money and time to just buy all those minorities a ticket to America first class. And to buy each family a house.

 

[regwec]

"They'd better fight yeehaw" is an unhelpful recommendation for marginal communities who are outnumbered, largely unarmed, and traditionally pacifist.

"They'd better commit suicide so I don't have to feel a transient pang of vicarious responsibility" seems to be what you are saying.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I'm being facetious. But right now we'd save time and transport cost by burning the money here in the states than sending it to the alleged Iraqi state which will squander it. More problematic is that they're letting good equipment and weapons fall into ISIS hands.

The Iraqi government and military are hopeless. Time to for new ideas.

 

[regwec]

I was responding to be the post above yours.

 

[Marvolo]

"They'd better fight yeehaw" is an unhelpful recommendation for marginal communities who are outnumbered, largely unarmed, and traditionally pacifist.

"They'd better commit suicide so I don't have to feel a transient pang of vicarious responsibility" seems to be what you are saying.

Why would I feel responsibility for what is going on over there? Regardless of what they do I didn't get the country into the situation it's in. I don't want our troops on the ground. It's as simple as that. So yes I want Iraq to get its ass up and fight for its life. That's all they can do besides run and/or die. No point pretending otherwise. If they aren't willing to fight and die for their country and lives why should our troops go die for them and their country?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Iraq isn't a country. But the people are people. We need to help them.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Seems a lot of them don't want to be "helped." Or at least our kind of help. I fear for the Kurds and the Yazidis. But I'm starting to lose sympathy for the Shi.ites* and Sunnis who seem determined to completely destroy each other.


*-have to put a . there, because of the stupid auto-censor

 

[MrCandy]

It cracks me up how our world leaders and politicians still talk about Iraq as one country, it never has been and it never will be unless another brutal dictator like Saddam Hussein comes along and rules with an iron fist and outright kills anyone who doesn't stand down. Iraq is 3 countries, Kurdistan in the north, Sunnistan in the center/west, and Shiastan in the South. Just break up the goddamn country already, this will never end and if it does, it will only be temporary. So much fail and denial in the international community.

And why is the West and Turkey supporting the rebels over the Assad regime? Yeah, Assad's sectarian, anti-democratic regime was/is mass-murderous. But the forces opposing them are ideologically far worse in addition to harboring genocidal intentions of their own. Assad's thugs could have killed another hundred thousand and their victory would still be preferable to IS, or al Nusra, or the Islamic Front gaining a victory. Those particular brands of ideology are just that bad. Groups like IS and JAN earn no credit whatsoever from me simply for having killed fewer innocent bystanders than the regime they're opposing. In fact, I would argue that for many people, including the great majority of non-Sunnis in Syria and whatever few modernized muslims remain in Damascus and other cities, a Salafist takeover would be worse than death. Assad is nowhere near the long-term threat to the region that these ultra hardline Sunni theocrats are.

 

[Marvolo]

Iraq isn't a country. But the people are people. We need to help them.

Officially Iraq is still considered a country.

And the people have to be willing to help themselves. We can't always hold their hands. And we aren't going to fight this war for them. Least I hope we aren't.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

This situation is dire. No one wants to send troops in and millions of people could become violently oppressed by ISIS.

I say give Kurdistan it's independence, make it a military green zone with American troops, allow innocent refugees flood the area with the men being pushed into the military and hold the line.

The Kurds are the only ones putting up a decent fight against ISIS they deserve independence and our military support.

 

[regwec]

Why would I feel responsibility for what is going on over there? Regardless of what they do I didn't get the country into the situation it's in. I don't want our troops on the ground. It's as simple as that. So yes I want Iraq to get its ass up and fight for its life. That's all they can do besides run and/or die. No point pretending otherwise. If they aren't willing to fight and die for their country and lives why should our troops go die for them and their country?

The point, obviously, is that Yazadi resistance against ISIS is futile and will end in their extinction. American/British/NATO forces are much better equipped to eliminate ISIS without excessive loss of life.

 

[chamber-music]

I've seen a number of posters on the politics boards saying countries that have conflicts should split. Splitting fractured countries isn't a fix all for the social geopolitical problems facing these regions.

I think people need to be wary that encouraging segregating various groups already fractured into smaller nations could actually worsen things in some situations.

Oppressions and sectarianism has been long been a problem in these places.

 

[regwec]

Yes, you would have thought 17th century Germany and the 20th century Balkans should be sufficient as a demonstration of why a patchwork of mutually hostile states may be a bad idea.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Yes, you would have thought 17th century Germany and the 20th century Balkans should be sufficient as a demonstration of why a patchwork of mutually hostile states may be a bad idea.

The situation with the Balkans happened because Yugoslavia was a poorly drawn up nation that should have never been one nation to begin with. While the situation is mostly settled, I would still say that Bosnia & Herzegovina's borders are still poorly drawn.