Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

[Thundercrack85]

Uh, that dome stops Israeli civilians from being blown up.

Keep the dome.

 

[Shemtov]

Uh, that dome stops Israeli civilians from being blown up.

Keep the dome.

It's the sad truth, but most people value Israeli lives as much s they value fecal mtter because they are "the oppressors"

 

[Marvolo]

Uh, that dome stops Israeli civilians from being blown up.

Keep the dome.

Im fully aware of that, and Isreal should consider this fact. Stop taking more and more land, stop antagonizing the people that hate you, and just cool your jets for a bit. Why should we keep giving Isreal the means to continue this BS. Without the dome they might think twice before they willfully antagonize their neighbors. Obviously Im not saying let Isreal be attacked. If their neighbors attack them for no good reason we help, but wheb they antagonize and invade their neighbors well I say whatever happens is on them.

 

[Shemtov]

Im fully aware of that, and Isreal should consider this fact. Stop taking more and more land, stop antagonizing the people that hate you, and just cool your jets for a bit. Why should we keep giving Isreal the means to continue this BS. Without the dome they might think twice before they willfully antagonize their neighbors. Obviously Im not saying let Isreal be attacked. If their neighbors attack them for no good reason we help, but wheb they antagonize and invade their neighbors well I say whatever happens is on them.

Um....Wht?
In the last bout of rocket fire, Hamas fired first.
Then again you don't know tht because the Media covered it up.

 

[Marvolo]

Um....Wht?
In the last bout of rocket fire, Hamas fired first.
Then again you don't know tht because the Media covered it up.

This whole conflict has gone back years. It isnt about who fired first this time. Isreal has been illegally expanding for years. Knowing full well it further intensifies an already fragile situation. The UN gave Palestine a bump towards statehood and what is Isreal now doing? They are planning more expansion. Its like they are purposefully trying to get attacked. Stop expanding.

 

[Shemtov]

This whole conflict has gone back years. It isnt about who fired first this time. Isreal has been illegally expanding for years. Knowing full well it further intensifies an already fragile situation. The UN gave Palestine a bump towards statehood and what is Isreal now doing? They are planning more expansion. Its like they are purposefully trying to get attacked. Stop expanding.

Yeah nd when Israel gives concessions too the Palestinians, like pulling out of Gaza they get attacked, too.
No matter wht they do, they get attacked.
If they stopped the settlements they would still be shelled.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Im fully aware of that, and Isreal should consider this fact. Stop taking more and more land, stop antagonizing the people that hate you, and just cool your jets for a bit. Why should we keep giving Isreal the means to continue this BS. Without the dome they might think twice before they willfully antagonize their neighbors. Obviously Im not saying let Isreal be attacked. If their neighbors attack them for no good reason we help, but wheb they antagonize and invade their neighbors well I say whatever happens is on them.

You know that even if the Israelis stopped all expansion today, that they'd still have rockets lobbed at them. There were militias in Palestine who wanted to wipe out the Jewish enclave before there was an Israel.

Israel is wrong about the settlements, but that doesn't mean random Israelis going about their business (no even in that area) should be killed in terrorist attacks. What kind of logic is that?

 

[Marvolo]

You know that even if the Israelis stopped all expansion today, that they'd still have rockets lobbed at them. There were militias in Palestine who wanted to wipe out the Jewish enclave before there was an Israel.

Israel is wrong about the settlements, but that doesn't mean random Israelis going about their business (no even in that area) should be killed in terrorist attacks. What kind of logic is that?

If they stopped all expansion and proved that they were willing to concede a little and that they actually wanted peace and still got attacked I would back them 100% against any enemy. Because then it would be proven that Isreal does want peace and it is not about the land. But this expansion BS is like a child pushing his parents buttons to see how much he can get away with. Until the expansion stops it looks like Isreal is just doing it for the land and proving that they could care less about peace. If Isreal wants the world to believe they want peace they need to stop telling us and start showing us. Make a gesture of good will and stop expansion. That will clear Isreal of any accusations of wrong doing and show they do want peace. If after that the attacks continue it will clearly show their neighbors are in the wrong.

 

[Shemtov]

If they.....proved that they were willing to concede a little..... Make a gesture of good will

Wht do you call pulling out of Gaza?

 

[Marvolo]

Wht do you call pulling out of Gaza?

Pulling out of Gaza and then planning to expand somewhere else is not a show of good will or proof of a desire for peace.

 

[Hawkingbird]

That I agree with

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Yeah nd when Israel gives concessions too the Palestinians, like pulling out of Gaza they get attacked, too.
No matter wht they do, they get attacked.
If they stopped the settlements they would still be shelled.

If they stopped and dismantled the settlements, the Palestinian authority would negotiate, as said by their own chief negotiator many, MANY times.

By building in E1, and splitting the West Bank in half, Israel is saying it doesn't believe in Palestine's right to exist.

 

[Fenrir]

Like Marvolo said, this conflict is so old with innumerable open wounds on both sides that whole "yeah well they started it first" argument is rather juvenile and pointless.

I'm absolutely staggered at how so many people don't realize the fact that Israel has absolutely no genuine intention of a proper peace accord with the Palestinians. Forget about who fired first. To say that Israel has the upper hand militarily, politically and economically over the Palestinians would be an understatement, and the differences with regard to the extent of damage to life and property between the Israelis and Palestinians is disproportionate it's not even worth considering. Thanks to the unconditional backing of the U.S and stroking European guilt over the Holocaust, Israel has been able to sidestep any ramifications for its transgressions. There is absolutely no justification for these new settlements and it clearly shows Israel's intentions of blatant land-grabbing, but Israel knows it can show the proverbial middle finger to everyone as long as the conflict is still in play and they have their "self-defense" card, it can take any kind of unilateral action against the Palestinians.

You don't concede when you have the upper hand in every conceivable way. You make the other party concede to your demands.

 

[Kelly]

It will be interesting to see how the whole UN Palestinian State works out after it is all written up....I'm thinking that Israel doesn't think it will work out and they are getting ready for another throw down, which they will win and again gain more land. The UN is actually falling right into place with Israel. Israel wants to be the victim in all of this, and if they are fired upon now, it is an act of war and they can blow them off the face of the earth.

 

[Marvolo]

Israel Moving Forward With Controversial West Bank Development

Israel said last week that it would revive the controversial project in response to the U.N. General Assembly vote to upgrade the status of Palestinian territories from “entity” to “nonmember observer state.” For nearly two decades, Israeli governments had agreed with U.S. requests to freeze development of E-1.

This is pure spite on Israel's part.

There is also this:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended what he said was the country’s right to build in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, and blamed Palestinians for circumventing peace talks by turning to the U.N. in its pursuit of statehood.

So now it is Palestine's fault for subverting the peace by requesting statehood and protection? What a load of BS.

The international community already considers Israel's expansions to be a violation of international law and the UN disapproves. Clearly it is time someone stepped in and stopped Israel.

www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-israel-west-bank-development-20121205,0,5391046.story

 

[Kelly]

I think we are partly to blame for Israel's way of thinking.....we have been calling these "peace talks" for as long as I can remember.....that isn't really what they should have been called. Because each side has been looking at this from different platforms. Israel from a purely "peace" platform, and the Palestinians from a platform of wanting statehood.

The peace took on the more important aspect without really doing anything in the area of statehood so it is obvious why the Palestinians have been so pissed. Israel has only seen peace as..."you don't shoot at us, and we will settle wherever we want because it is all ours anyway." that mindset is NEVER going to get them anywhere, but I don't see them changing that mindset anytime soon.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Saying that the peace process is dead, or nonexistent is very controversial.

Taboo on the international scene.

 

[Kelly]

Saying that the peace process is dead, or nonexistent is very controversial.

Taboo on the international scene.

I'm not necessarily saying it is dead, I am simply saying that these two sides are coming from very different mindsets....and I don't think that it is about who was there first anymore....I think that it is now about Israel wants things status quo and don't shoot at me, and the Palestinians want Statehood at any cost. It is amazing to me that the Israeli's can't see that they were once where the Palestinians are.....I guess that can't see it through the barrage of bombs from the air and suicide bombers.....

 

[Kelly]

You know that even if the Israelis stopped all expansion today, that they'd still have rockets lobbed at them. There were militias in Palestine who wanted to wipe out the Jewish enclave before there was an Israel.

Israel is wrong about the settlements, but that doesn't mean random Israelis going about their business (no even in that area) should be killed in terrorist attacks. What kind of logic is that?

Very true, that is the Palestinian sin in all of this.....

 

[Thundercrack85]

I see both sides as going out of their way to effectively make peace impossible. Hamas refuses to recognize Israeli's right to exist, much less recognize it as a state. Not to mention attacking Israeli civilians.

Israel has no intention of stopping settlement of the West Bank, and while it pays lip service to the two-state solution, it does very little towards making it happen.

So there really is no peace process. Relations are only deteriorating, but no one wants to say it.

 

[Hawkingbird]

Well France and the UK certainly aren't happy with Israel.

 

[Kelly]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/06/hamid-karzai-afghanistan-insecurity_n_2249703.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D242098

I am so sick of this crap....I would tell Karzai to go and screw himself and move every troop out of Afghanistan and let the place go to hell.....this is getting ridiculous. We don't need to be there anyway, Bin Laden is dead we need to get the hell out.....if we see terror cells beginning to train there again, we keep a satellite eye on them, if they move our direction we send drones in and bomb. Let people ***** about it......

 

[Marvolo]

Agreed!

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Typical Karzai playing his double game. He wants to appease the warlords at home while at the same time trying to leech more money from Europe and the US. When he leaves at the end of his term, he's probably going back to Maryland.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Israel approves 1,500 more settler homes

Israel approved plans to build 1,500 more Jewish settler homes in East Jerusalem on Monday, an official said, days after provoking international protests against a project for another 3,000 such homes.

Washington had condemned the latest plans, for Orthodox neighborhood Ramat Shlomo, when they were published during a 2010 visit by U.S. Vice President Joe Biden.

Palestinians see the settlements as obstacles to achieving independent statehood. The settlements have been condemned by many countries, and the latest project is slated to be built on a portion of West Bank land Israel annexed as part of Jerusalem, in a move never recognized internationally.

"We condemn in the strongest possible terms these Israeli actions and the determination of Israel to continue expanding settlements and in the process undermining the two-state solution," said senior Palestinian Authority official Saeb Erekat.


http://www.jewishjournal.com/israel...ves_1500_more_settler_homes_in_east_jerusalem