Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

[TheDragonator]

I would like to take a moment to say 'Damn.', then leave the thread like the clever ******* that I am.

Damn.

 

[Shemtov]

I would like to take a moment to say 'Damn.', then leave the thread like the clever ******* that I am.

Damn.

Damn about what?

 

[Shemtov]

Seriously Dragonator Damn about what? You can't just leave me hanging.

 

[Shemtov]

I'm sure that there are plenty, but when the people vote in Likud and Hamas in power, two parties that have no real desire for peace, you know what? I came to the conclusion that they deserve each other.

Do you know how Israeli politics work?

 

[Hobgoblin]

http://posttrib.suntimes.com/news/9208727-418/ultraconservative-party-to-push-for-islamic-egypt.html

CAIRO — Anticipating a strong presence in the new Egyptian parliament, ultraconservative Islamists outlined plans Friday for a strict brand of religious law, a move that could limit personal freedoms and steer a key U.S. ally toward an Islamic state.

Egypt’s election commission announced only a trickle of results from the first round of parliamentary elections and said 62 percent of eligible voters cast ballots in the highest turnout in modern history.

However, leaked counts point to a clear majority for Islamist parties at the expense of liberal activist groups that led the uprising against Hosni Mubarak, toppling a regime long seen as a secular bulwark in the Middle East.

The more pragmatic Muslim Brotherhood is poised to take the largest share of votes, as much as 45 percent. But the Nour Party, which espouses a strict interpretation of Islam in which democracy is subordinate to the Quran, could win a quarter of the house, giving it much power to affect debate.

A spokesman, Yousseri Hamad, said his party considers God’s law the only law.

“In the land of Islam, I can’t let people decide what is permissible or what is prohibited,” Hamad told The Associated Press. “It is God who gives the answers as to what is right and what is wrong.”

The Nour Party is the main political arm of the hard-line Salafist Muslim movement, which espouses a strict form of Islam similar to that practiced in Saudi Arabia. Salafis, who often wear long beards and seek to imitate the life of the Prophet Muhammad, speak openly about their aim of turning Egypt into a state where personal freedoms, including freedom of speech, women’s dress and art, are constrained by Islamic law — goals that make many Egyptians nervous.

Salafis object to women in leadership roles, citing Muhammad as saying that “no people succeed if led by women.” However, when election regulations forced all parties to include women, Salafi cleric Yasser el-Bourhami relented, saying that “committing small sins” is better than “committing bigger ones” — by which he meant letting secular people run the government.

In the end, the party put women at the bottom of its lists, represented by flowers because women’s photos were deemed inappropriate.

This week, Salafi cleric and parliamentary candidate Abdel-Monem Shahat caused a stir by saying the novels of Egypt’s Nobel laureate Naguib Mahfouz, read widely in Egyptian schools, are “all prostitution.”

Salafis are newcomers on Egypt’s political scene. They long shunned the concept of democracy, saying it allows man’s law to override God’s. But they formed parties and entered politics after Mubarak’s ouster, seeking to enshrine Islamic law in Egypt’s new constitution.

By contrast, the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt’s largest and best organized political group, was officially banned under Mubarak but established a nationwide network of activists who built a reputation for offering services to the poor. After Mubarak’s fall, the group’s Freedom and Justice Party campaigned fiercely, their organization and name-recognition giving them a big advantage over newly formed liberal parties.

Stakes are particularly high since the new parliament is supposed to oversee writing Egypt’s new constitution. The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, which took control of the country when Mubarak fell, has tried to impose restrictions on membership in the 100-member drafting committee. The Muslim Brotherhood has said it will challenge the move, and a strong showing by Islamists in the elections could boost its popular mandate to do so.

Hamed, the Nour Party spokesman, said democracy can’t pass laws that contradict religion.

“We endorse Egyptian democracy,” he said. “However, I don’t give absolute freedom to people to legislate to themselves and decide on what is right or wrong.

“We have God’s laws that tell us that.”

He suggested, for example, that alcohol should be banned and that a state agency could penalize Muslims for eating during the day during the holy month of Ramadan, when the devout fast from dawn to dusk.

The Muslim Brotherhood and Salafis have both cooperated and disagreed in the past.

They tried to form an electoral alliance, which broke down over disagreements about including Christians and women in their electoral lists. However, the two parties campaigned together in some areas and declined to contest certain seats so as not to split the Islamist vote and allow liberal candidates to win.

The strong Islamist showing worries liberal parties who fear the two groups will work to push a religious agenda. It has also caused many youth activists who launched the anti-Mubarak uprising to feel that their revolution has been hijacked. Still, the liberal Egyptian Bloc coalition, which is competing with the Salafis to be the second-largest parliamentary bloc, could counterbalance hard-line elements.

Cooperation between the Brotherhood and Salafis in parliament isn’t guaranteed, said Shadi Hamid, Middle East expert with the Brookings Doha Center. The Brotherhood is a pragmatic organization that will work with other parties to achieve its goals, while the Salafis shun compromise.

Once the parliament is seated, Hamid expects the Brotherhood to focus on establishing a strong parliamentary system, reforming state institutions and boosting the economy — goals they share with liberal groups.

“Banning alcohol or passing laws on women’s dress are not on their priority list, and they see these issues as a distraction from the issues at hand,” he said.

Still, a strong Salafist bloc in parliament will have a “massive effect,” he said, by giving the group a larger platform for its views.

“The Salafis are going to insert religion into the public debate in a way that would not have happened otherwise,” he said.

Many in Egypt’s Coptic Christian population, which makes up 10 percent of the country, fear the Salafis will push for laws that will make them second-class citizens.

Even some religious Egyptians see the Salafi as too extreme.

“I am religious and don’t want laws that go against my beliefs, but there shouldn’t be religious law,” said Ahmed Abdel-Rahman, a geography teacher. “I don’t want anyone imposing his religious views on me.”

The election commission said Friday that more than 8 million eligible voters — 62 percent — participated in the first round. But it announced final results in only a few races. It remains unclear when complete final results will be released.

This week’s vote, held in nine provinces, will determine about 30 percent of the 498 seats in the People’s Assembly, parliament’s lower house. Two more rounds, ending in January, will cover Egypt’s other 18 provinces.

I'm all for democracy but I still dont like the idea of Egypt becoming an Islamic state. We'll see what happens next.

 

[8wid]

Pakistan plot to overthrow government, says PM Gilani

 

[Crazy Quilt]

Do you know how Israeli politics work?

They don't vote in the members of the Knesset? Or are you saying it's some kind of proportional representation? I'm confused by this question...

 

[Crazy Quilt]

“In the land of Islam, I can’t let people decide what is permissible or what is prohibited,” Hamad told The Associated Press. “It is God who gives the answers as to what is right and what is wrong.”

Then that isn't democracy, buddy.


I'm sad to see where this is going. These backward fools know nothing about orthodox Islam which is NOT hardline like this. This is all Saudi-manufactured puritanism. I dunno if anyone here is particularly familiar with British history in the 17th century or so but this is basically the Islamic equivalent of the puritans and Oliver Cromwell.

The Nour Party is the main political arm of the hard-line Salafist Muslim movement, which espouses a strict form of Islam similar to that practiced in Saudi Arabia. Salafis, who often wear long beards and seek to imitate the life of the Prophet Muhammad, speak openly about their aim of turning Egypt into a state where personal freedoms, including freedom of speech, women’s dress and art, are constrained by Islamic law — goals that make many Egyptians nervous.

Salafis!

Funded by oil money no doubt coming from that nest of vipers that is the Al Sauds. All non-Muslims should know that Salafism is heresy. Historic Islam all through the Middle Ages was tolerant and open minded: promoting science, education, the arts, ijitihad(the need to interpret Islam for current circumstances), mystical spirituality, poetry, philosophy...

When Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab began his heresy in Arabia in the 1700s, ALL the major Islamic scholars rejected it. These Wahhabis/Salafis began attacking caravans trying to make the Hajj for doing things such as singing on their way or wearing the wrong kind of clothes(this was after the first time they took over control of the Hejaz where Mecca is located, in the early 1800s), they attacked Shia just for being Shia. They condemn Sufism, which I love, which is a time honored practice dating back to the time of the Prophet(peace be upon him), as shirk(idolatry) and innovation. There is nothing in the Qur'an or Hadith that says women can't drive.

Then when these ignoramuses got mega rich in the 1970s they started promoting their sickness in poor Muslim countries. They funded political, Salafist Islam abroad to fill the void that was left from the collapse of Nasser's pan-Arabism. Oh and because they have this bizarre belief that any respect or veneration for historic heritage sites in Islam is a form of idolatry, they have destroyed dozens if not hundreds of these sites in Saudi Arabia, including the house where Muhammad(pbuh) was born, the first Islamic school he taught at(Dar al Arqam), the house he lived in with his first wife Khadijah and many, many more historic mosques and gravesites(including the grave of Muhammad pbuh's mother!) have been razed. I hate these bastards. Their Islam is like a body with no soul and they are all hypocrites, anyway.

/rant

 

[Crazy Quilt]

As a Jew and supporter of Israel I am shocked my people would do this.
This is a national issue, and's not to be taken into the hands of the citizenry.

Well...it echoes the reprisal style attacks staged by the Irgun before the 1948 war with their "active defense" policy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin

Okay, actually that was a lot worse back then.

Hardline Jewish settlers have adopted what they call a 'price tag' policy -- a euphemism for revenge attacks against Palestinians and their property following Israeli government measures against settlements. No Israelis were arrested in the incidents as of yet.

When Israel effectively has control over the whole area and they share a power grid, road system etc. isn't the building of these settlements just making it all but impossible for a two-state solution? Are there to be pockets of Israeli territory within a future Palestinian state? It just doesn't work. It seems to be working toward making a one state solution not inevitable but sort of already the defacto situation on the ground. How can you have two states with the current situation? Which is why I don't understand the settlement movement, it seems like committing national suicide as far as keeping a state with a distinctly Jewish identity/majority. In one state demographics are on the Arab/Muslim side. Unless the people behind the settlements honestly think they should and can push all of the Palestinians out of the territory completely. Surely they don't believe that. That's as crazy as the extremists on the other side.

 

[8wid]

Syria officials: Twin bombings in Damascus kill 30

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Israel upholds citizenship bar for Palestinian spouses

Israel's Supreme Court has upheld a law banning Palestinians who marry Israelis from gaining Israeli citizenship. Civil rights groups had petitioned the court to overturn the law, saying it was unconstitutional.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16526469

 

[8wid]

Damascus suburb rises up against President Assad

 

[Shemtov]

Palestinian rivals agree to form unity government:


http://news.yahoo.com/abbas-head-unity-palestinian-government-senior-official-092753840.html

 

[hippie_hunter]

CNN is reporting that the Syrian government has lost control of the northen part of the country.

 

[Shemtov]

They don't vote in the members of the Knesset? Or are you saying it's some kind of proportional representation? I'm confused by this question...

The Knesset is like British Parliament. People vote for parties. If no one party forms the majority (which they usually don't) parties join together to form a coalition, with a head party.

 

[Shemtov]

Continuing the discussion from the terrorism thread....

Then you agree that a historical perception is not enough to validate colonialism? You've just acknowledged that the Muslim eras (spanning 1300 years) have more history in this region, therefore their historical right to the land is just as valid than only the Jews?

Let me ask you a question: If Israel was still holding on to the West Bank in 3400, and Palestinians still kept their ethnic identity separate from other Arabs in the intervening years, what would you say should be done with the land?

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Great, so is this thread going to go off the rails now too? I know it's the internet where endless arguments rule the day, but can't you guys be adults and just agree to disagree. You'll never convince the other side that you're right and he's wrong.

 

[8wid]

As much as I don't like Oliver Stone's kooky facts and movies a lot of the time. He does make a lot of sense here.

Bill Moyers Journal - Oliver Stone part 1

Bill Moyers Interviewing Oliver Stone Part 2

 

[Shemtov]

Great, so is this thread going to go off the rails now too? I know it's the internet where endless arguments rule the day, but can't you guys be adults and just agree to disagree. You'll never convince the other side that you're right and he's wrong.

This is a Southwest Asia Issue.
And sometimes it's not about convincing the other side.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Well I don't want to get into an endless argument about this if that is what others feel we should do. Shemtov, to answer your hypothetical scenario, I am an optimist; and I'd say in the year 3400, humanity will find a way for all parties to live in peace.

If technology moves forward exponentially, hopefully we'd find a way to create a renewable form of energy, and energy politics will be a thing of the past. By then, developing nations would be powerful, and 3rd world nations would have caught up with their newly found energy independence. Geopolitical federations become unified and we have a world government that allows free travel and commerce between every nation. Every human being can be whoever they want, wherever they want.

 

[Thundercrack85]

God I really hope there are no humans in 3400. That would just be depressing.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

New video showing mercenary services Blackwater (also formerly known as Xe Services LLC) running over Iraqi woman and shooting indiscriminately at civilians



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thf5FVuZrWQ


This company recently changed its name again to "Academi" and was rewarded with a 250 Million from the U.S. State Department under the Bureau of Diplomatic Security's Worldwide Personal Protective Services (WPPS) and WPPS II umbrella contracts, along with DynCorp International and Triple Canopy, Inc. for protective services in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Israel.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

New video showing mercenary services Blackwater (also formerly known as Xe Services LLC) running over Iraqi woman and shooting indiscriminately at civilians



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thf5FVuZrWQ


This company recently changed its name again to "Academi" and was rewarded with a 250 Million from the U.S. State Department under the Bureau of Diplomatic Security's Worldwide Personal Protective Services (WPPS) and WPPS II umbrella contracts, along with DynCorp International and Triple Canopy, Inc. for protective services in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Israel.

Blackwater/Xe/Academi really bothers me. I remain mystified in how these pricks can get away with murder.

The Iraqi incident back in the early 2000s was disgusting enough, but the company continues to receive support from our own government.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

They're evil pricks and mercs, but they provide great security. That's how they stay in business.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

They're evil pricks and mercs, but they provide great security. That's how they stay in business.

At what cost?

The USA is trying to restore it's image after the Iraqi War and Afghanistan Invasion. Yet ironically, these shadow armies are only causing more harm in the process.