Discussion: Racism - Part 2

[DeadPresident]

What some of you don't understand is that we hear the same arguments about reverse racism from white supremacist and white nationalist all the time.

So you need to convince us that you oppose the rise of white nationalism before you can convince us our current strategy against white nationalism is counter-productive.

And here's a key mistake, nobody needs to convince you of anything, nobody owes you anything. Lumping in whites with "white nationalism" and then telling them to explain to you why you treating them like white nationalists is unacceptable is just a social interaction strategy doomed to fail. If people are going to insist on being pigheaded and being confrontational with all whites while it may feel good and scratch that righteous indignation itch it's never going to create any positive outcomes.

You're coming at this from an oppositional and confrontational perspective instead of a collaborative one - that's never going to convert "average" people to support your cause. Nobody is ever going to change a hardcore racist's opinions, those aren't the people to engage with, rational moderate individuals with little prejudice are the kinds of people to engage with. Those same rational moderate individuals are also less likely to empathize with anyone when the first engagement goes "Hey whitey, if you don't do X, Y, and Z you're as racist as I think you are!".

And lastly, if anyone's response is "Yeah, but all whites are racist to at least some degree!" then why the **** are you still in the country if all white Americans are racist pieces of ****? Good luck changing 200 odd million people.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

And here's a key mistake, nobody needs to convince you of anything, nobody owes you anything. Lumping in whites with "white nationalism" and then telling them to explain to you why you treating them like white nationalists is unacceptable is just a social interaction strategy doomed to fail. If people are going to insist on being pigheaded and being confrontational with all whites while it may feel good and scratch that righteous indignation itch it's never going to create any positive outcomes.

You're coming at this from an oppositional and confrontational perspective instead of a collaborative one - that's never going to convert "average" people to support your cause. Nobody is ever going to change a hardcore racist's opinions, those aren't the people to engage with, rational moderate individuals with little prejudice are the kinds of people to engage with. Those same rational moderate individuals are also less likely to empathize with anyone when the first engagement goes "Hey whitey, if you don't do X, Y, and Z you're as racist as I think you are!".

And lastly, if anyone's response is "Yeah, but all whites are racist to at least some degree!" then why the **** are you still in the country if all white Americans are racist pieces of ****? Good luck changing 200 odd million people.

I'm not saying all whites are white nationalist nor did I say blacks are owed anything.

You're either advising blacks how to defeat the rise of white nationalism in which case you need to convince them you're not part of the problem first.

Or you're telling blacks that they shouldn't try and fight the rise of white nationalism with no interest in offering a more effective method in which you case you can take your opinion and shove it.

Pick one.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

How do we address and counter the global rise of white nationalism?

You want to collaborate then let's collaborate.

But if you just want to cry about Liberals and reverse racism all day then save your breath.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

It's like when people complain about Hillary and her supporters during the general election without discussing how to defeat Trump.

You're "constructive" criticism isn't helping because it's condescending and negative against the people actually doing something.

Just explain what you're doing to beat Trump and see if people like your reasoning.

 

[BatOnTheWing]

The best way to counter white nationalism is to put it in the forefront.
It's an ugly truth that needs to be confronted head-on, no matter how uncomfortable
it makes people. There has to be an open discussion about it on a civil level.

Why do you feel like this? What experiences have you had with people of other nationalities, creeds? What do you feel your value is in comparison? Do we not all
contribute to the overall beauty of this world? Is this the kind of example that you
want your children to follow, to live in hatred? So on, so forth.

 

[hellified]

Are there users here that are doing that?

see below for an example

But remember, many of the users in this thread reject that definition of racism. The new definition of racism isn't about individuals, it's about a specific category of people (evil whites) using social, political and economic structures to eternally subjugate non-white groups.

Ergo, only whites can be racist. It's a very convenient little kafkatrap.

you got that backwards (as usual) the new definition of racism is about individuals. Racism has ALWAYS functioned on a systemic level. Look at american history for an example.

 

[DeadPresident]

I'm not saying all whites are white nationalist nor did I say blacks are owed anything.

You're either advising blacks how to defeat the rise of white nationalism in which case you need to convince them you're not part of the problem first.

Or you're telling blacks that they shouldn't try and fight the rise of white nationalism with no interest in offering a more effective method in which you case you can take your opinion and shove it.

Pick one.

No, that doesn't work. If you say the onus is on me to prove I'm not part of the problem you're operating under the assumption that statistically a white person is more likely to be a white nationalist? So before we collaborate can I ask you to convince me you're not any number of disparaging stereotypes of black people? How on earth is this a recipe for success?

Listen man, I'm not American, I don't owe you ****ing anything. If your point of departure on "collaboration" is "Prove you're not a klan member with a garage full of sheets and kerosene or **** off" I think you need to re-read the definition of "collaboration" - nobody owes you anything, and certainly I don't.

I'm absolutely telling people to fight the rise of white nationalism, a good place to start is not to assume every white is a white nationalist. I mean to some degree you're already operating under this myth that every white is somehow plotting some kind of evil, your default position seems to be "At an individual level whites are plotting on me", I'd prefer if you didn't project your paranoid perceptions of the worst of my race onto me if it's all the same.

How do we address and counter the global rise of white nationalism?

You want to collaborate then let's collaborate.

But if you just want to cry about Liberals and reverse racism all day then save your breath.

Okay, now we're talking. My first suggestion (not aimed at you specifically, although I think it counts considering your last post) is don't start with passive-aggression. That already sets everything off to be confrontational and defensive, that never helps any social engagement. I mean, I'm a reasonable person, but my compassion doesn't bleed into self-flagellation so I'm not going to turn the other cheek each time I'm accused of behaviors I don't exhibit. I mean, let's assume I'm even willing to entertain justifying that I'm not a racist every time I have a discussion, how the **** are we ever going to even discuss the actual topic at hand if I'm having to prove I'm not some undercover Stormfront jabronie ever ten seconds?

Secondly, I'd say the majority of any nationalism only flourishes during harsh economic times - so the first place to start is by allowing more access to resources to everyone who's economically suffering. Secondly, the socialization around race in educational institutions from kindergarten up is probably wholly lacking in the US considering its fractured and complex history with race, having social scientists consult on what would aid cohesion and tolerance from childhood up would be a solid idea.

Lastly, I understand the romanticism around black nationalism but I think all it does is inspire an escalation in white nationalism. I'm not sure how it is Stateside exactly, but I'm South African and there's a massive (government encouraged and led) discourse surrounding nationalism that has caused violent outbreaks of xenophobia aimed at people that are black Africans, but just not from South Africa. That kind of separatist rhetoric is destructive regardless of who the groups in question are, but I suspect it's much more of a fringe issue in the US so perhaps this paragraph can be disregarded.

 

[DeadPresident]

see below for an example

you got that backwards (as usual) the new definition of racism is about individuals. Racism has ALWAYS functioned on a systemic level. Look at american history for an example.

No, I don't have it backwards, but you keep doing you man. You're aggressive and uninformed, that's a bad combination. I can be aggressive but at least I'm informed, it's slightly more desirable.

The "new" definition has little to do with individuals and everything to do with isolating certain identity groups (i.e, the status quo) as the only potential perpetrators of structural violence.

 

[DeadPresident]

Also, since this goes on so much in this thread - here's a helpful little piece on the term "kafkatrapping":

The term “kafkatrapping” describes a logical fallacy that is popular within gender feminism, racial politics and other ideologies of victimhood. It occurs when you are accused of a thought crime such as sexism, racism or homophobia. You respond with an honest denial, which is then used as further confirmation of your guilt. You are now trapped in a circular and unfalsifiable argument; no one who is accused can be innocent because the structure of kafkatrapping precludes that possibility.

http://www.thedailybell.com/editorials/wendy-mcelroy-beware-of-kafkatrapping/

 

[hellified]

No, I don't have it backwards, but you keep doing you man. You're aggressive and uninformed, that's a bad combination. I can be aggressive but at least I'm informed, it's slightly more desirable.

The "new" definition has little to do with individuals and everything to do with isolating certain identity groups (i.e, the status quo) as the only potential perpetrators of structural violence.

Listen man, I'm not American,

and this is why you have no idea about what youre talking about.

 

[Docker2.0]

I'm not saying all whites are white nationalist nor did I say blacks are owed anything.

You're either advising blacks how to defeat the rise of white nationalism in which case you need to convince them you're not part of the problem first.

Or you're telling blacks that they shouldn't try and fight the rise of white nationalism with no interest in offering a more effective method in which you case you can take your opinion and shove it.

Pick one.

No, that doesn't work. If you say the onus is on me to prove I'm not part of the problem you're operating under the assumption that statistically a white person is more likely to be a white nationalist? So before we collaborate can I ask you to convince me you're not any number of disparaging stereotypes of black people? How on earth is this a recipe for success?

Listen man, I'm not American, I don't owe you ****ing anything. If your point of departure on "collaboration" is "Prove you're not a klan member with a garage full of sheets and kerosene or **** off" I think you need to re-read the definition of "collaboration" - nobody owes you anything, and certainly I don't.

I'm absolutely telling people to fight the rise of white nationalism, a good place to start is not to assume every white is a white nationalist. I mean to some degree you're already operating under this myth that every white is somehow plotting some kind of evil, your default position seems to be "At an individual level whites are plotting on me", I'd prefer if you didn't project your paranoid perceptions of the worst of my race onto me if it's all the same.



Okay, now we're talking. My first suggestion (not aimed at you specifically, although I think it counts considering your last post) is don't start with passive-aggression. That already sets everything off to be confrontational and defensive, that never helps any social engagement. I mean, I'm a reasonable person, but my compassion doesn't bleed into self-flagellation so I'm not going to turn the other cheek each time I'm accused of behaviors I don't exhibit. I mean, let's assume I'm even willing to entertain justifying that I'm not a racist every time I have a discussion, how the **** are we ever going to even discuss the actual topic at hand if I'm having to prove I'm not some undercover Stormfront jabronie ever ten seconds?

Secondly, I'd say the majority of any nationalism only flourishes during harsh economic times - so the first place to start is by allowing more access to resources to everyone who's economically suffering. Secondly, the socialization around race in educational institutions from kindergarten up is probably wholly lacking in the US considering its fractured and complex history with race, having social scientists consult on what would aid cohesion and tolerance from childhood up would be a solid idea.

Lastly, I understand the romanticism around black nationalism but I think all it does is inspire an escalation in white nationalism. I'm not sure how it is Stateside exactly, but I'm South African and there's a massive (government encouraged and led) discourse surrounding nationalism that has caused violent outbreaks of xenophobia aimed at people that are black Africans, but just not from South Africa. That kind of separatist rhetoric is destructive regardless of who the groups in question are, but I suspect it's much more of a fringe issue in the US so perhaps this paragraph can be disregarded.

But yet you debate like you live here. That's like me telling North Koreans how to live their lives in North Korea when all I know is what I see on tv. Now your posts make much more sense. Have you even been here?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

No, that doesn't work. If you say the onus is on me to prove I'm not part of the problem you're operating under the assumption that statistically a white person is more likely to be a white nationalist? So before we collaborate can I ask you to convince me you're not any number of disparaging stereotypes of black people? How on earth is this a recipe for success?

Listen man, I'm not American, I don't owe you ****ing anything. If your point of departure on "collaboration" is "Prove you're not a klan member with a garage full of sheets and kerosene or **** off" I think you need to re-read the definition of "collaboration" - nobody owes you anything, and certainly I don't.

I'm absolutely telling people to fight the rise of white nationalism, a good place to start is not to assume every white is a white nationalist. I mean to some degree you're already operating under this myth that every white is somehow plotting some kind of evil, your default position seems to be "At an individual level whites are plotting on me", I'd prefer if you didn't project your paranoid perceptions of the worst of my race onto me if it's all the same.



Okay, now we're talking. My first suggestion (not aimed at you specifically, although I think it counts considering your last post) is don't start with passive-aggression. That already sets everything off to be confrontational and defensive, that never helps any social engagement. I mean, I'm a reasonable person, but my compassion doesn't bleed into self-flagellation so I'm not going to turn the other cheek each time I'm accused of behaviors I don't exhibit. I mean, let's assume I'm even willing to entertain justifying that I'm not a racist every time I have a discussion, how the **** are we ever going to even discuss the actual topic at hand if I'm having to prove I'm not some undercover Stormfront jabronie ever ten seconds?

Secondly, I'd say the majority of any nationalism only flourishes during harsh economic times - so the first place to start is by allowing more access to resources to everyone who's economically suffering. Secondly, the socialization around race in educational institutions from kindergarten up is probably wholly lacking in the US considering its fractured and complex history with race, having social scientists consult on what would aid cohesion and tolerance from childhood up would be a solid idea.

Lastly, I understand the romanticism around black nationalism but I think all it does is inspire an escalation in white nationalism. I'm not sure how it is Stateside exactly, but I'm South African and there's a massive (government encouraged and led) discourse surrounding nationalism that has caused violent outbreaks of xenophobia aimed at people that are black Africans, but just not from South Africa. That kind of separatist rhetoric is destructive regardless of who the groups in question are, but I suspect it's much more of a fringe issue in the US so perhaps this paragraph can be disregarded.

I'll make this as simple as possible.

White nationalism isn't some fringe concept. That claim used to get plenty mileage but that was before anti-Muslim, anti-Mexican, and racist dog whistles got a far right authoritarian elected leader of the free world.

Nobody wants to read your condescending, wall of text lectures about Liberals and black activists.

Tell us what you're doing to defeat the rise of white nationalism or take a hike.

 

[DeadPresident]

But yet you debate like you live here. That's like me telling North Koreans how to live their lives in North Korea when all I know is what I see on tv. Now your posts make much more sense. Have you even been here?

I have lived there. We're not living in the 1900s anymore, I don't have to stay in a place to make an educated statement about it.

I'll make this as simple as possible.

White nationalism isn't some fringe concept. That claim used to get plenty mileage but that was before anti-Muslim, anti-Mexican, and racist dog whistles got a far right authoritarian elected leader of the free world.

Nobody wants to read your condescending, wall of text lectures about Liberals and black activists.

Tell us what you're doing to defeat the rise of white nationalism or take a hike.

What…? Do I get to tell you "What are you doing to defeat the prevalence of fatherless homes in black America?" with a straight face?

How is this "collaboration"…? "Do something for me or you're as bad as them!"?

Also, if it came off as condescending then scrap it and chalk it down to me being an ***hole if you'd like, I have a genuine question I want to ask you:

What makes you think whites can "defeat white nationalism"? No condescension, legitimate question - you appear to be attributing capabilities to whites they don't have. White nationalists and racists have their own little in or out groups, there's no reasoning or discussing with them, you either share their beliefs or you don't. What success would I have going up to white nationalists and saying "Hey guys, your outlook on the world is seriously archaic and uncivilized, not to mention backward and provides no benefit to anyone. What say you guys be more tolerant and accepting and we can build a better society that way?" - That would fail miserably.

The only way you fix discriminatory beliefs like that is you socialize people properly when they're kids. If you think some banding together of white allies is going to defeat the rednecks, that's highly unlikely.

 

[hellified]

I'll make this as simple as possible.

White nationalism isn't some fringe concept. That claim used to get plenty mileage but that was before anti-Muslim, anti-Mexican, and racist dog whistles got a far right authoritarian elected leader of the free world.

Nobody wants to read your condescending, wall of text lectures about Liberals and black activists.

Tell us what you're doing to defeat the rise of white nationalism or take a hike.

he told you

Listen man, I'm not American,

he has no solutions because the problem is like a puzzle for him not some real life real time issue that affects his life in real ways. Its like you giving your opinion on the issues between palestinians and jews in the gaza strip. And being snide while doing it.

its trolling at best and he and ches know it..

 

[DeadPresident]

and this is why you have no idea about what youre talking about.

Stellar input.

Other people in this thread who thoroughly dislike me and most of my participation here have even called out your rank ignorance, no amount of engagement is going to teach you anything - cheerio

 

[Docker2.0]

he told you


he has no solutions because the problem is like a puzzle for him not some real life real time issue that affects his life in real ways. Its like you giving your opinion on the issues between palestinians and jews in the gaza strip. And being snide while doing it.

its trolling at best and he and ches know it..

Exactly! All this freaking time, I'm thinking dude lived here but he doesn't. Wow! Now it all makes sense! I visited Brazil so I'm going to tell some Brazilians on how to make their country a better place. Unfreaking believable!

 

[hellified]

Stellar input.

Other people in this thread who thoroughly dislike me and most of my participation here have even called out your rank ignorance, no amount of engagement is going to teach you anything - cheerio

and whats your input?? I BELIEVE THE CHILDREN ARE OUR FUTURE

how original

and you aren't an american so you have no idea what your talking about.

 

[DeadPresident]

Exactly! All this freaking time, I'm thinking dude lived here but he doesn't. Wow! Now it all makes sense! I visited Brazil so I'm going to tell some Brazilians on how to make their country a better place. Unfreaking believable!

So living somewhere for three years is the same as visiting…Okay...

And now I'm accused of trolling, too…Seems legit

 

[Greens]

From this point on we can ONLY discuss issues that happen in the country we currently inhabit...... that doesn't leave me with a lot of material.

 

[hellified]

So living somewhere for three years is the same as visiting…Okay...

And now I'm accused of trolling, too…Seems legit

doesn't make you an expert on it either..

here's your primer

[YT]ZN9mwhSrTdU[/YT]

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I have lived there. We're not living in the 1900s anymore, I don't have to stay in a place to make an educated statement about it.



What…? Do I get to tell you "What are you doing to defeat the prevalence of fatherless homes in black America?" with a straight face?

How is this "collaboration"…? "Do something for me or you're as bad as them!"?

Also, if it came off as condescending then scrap it and chalk it down to me being an ***hole if you'd like, I have a genuine question I want to ask you:

What makes you think whites can "defeat white nationalism"? No condescension, legitimate question - you appear to be attributing capabilities to whites they don't have. White nationalists and racists have their own little in or out groups, there's no reasoning or discussing with them, you either share their beliefs or you don't. What success would I have going up to white nationalists and saying "Hey guys, your outlook on the world is seriously archaic and uncivilized, not to mention backward and provides no benefit to anyone. What say you guys be more tolerant and accepting and we can build a better society that way?" - That would fail miserably.

The only way you fix discriminatory beliefs like that is you socialize people properly when they're kids. If you think some banding together of white allies is going to defeat the rednecks, that's highly unlikely.

If black fatherhood was the thread topic and something I thought was problematic (I don't), I would tell you that I've raised three step children for the last 10 years.

What do I do to fight white nationalism other than vote against it? I take my kids to pro-immigrant rallies and fully support the ACLU with donations and actively spreading awareness in my local community.

So yeah, I'm not trying to get lectures about everything Liberals and black activist are doing wrong.

I prefer to read and hear personal solutions to rising white nationalism.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

To be fair, rising white nationalism is a global issue so you don't have be American to fight it.

 

[Laderlappen]

DeadPresident speaks only common sense. You don't have to live in America to understand spreading hate to a group of people because of their race is not only unproductive but morally wrong. You can't debate his actual point so you defend yourself by invalidating him on the basis of where he's from.

 

[The Overlord]

Also, since this goes on so much in this thread - here's a helpful little piece on the term "kafkatrapping":



http://www.thedailybell.com/editorials/wendy-mcelroy-beware-of-kafkatrapping/

And this is a major problem compared to the victim complex that white Republicans seem to often exhibit?

It goes back to a quote Lyndon Johnson had about racism: "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

White nationalism is bad for poor white people, its good for a few rich people who get to distracted from the lack of good jobs, smog filling their lungs and their shrinking savings, because it divides and conquers working class voters who could vote as a block to help further their interests.

Trump can play his xenophobic base like fiddle, not only can he turn them against Muslims and Mexicans, he can turn them against countries like Germany and Canada, blame trade surpluses with those countries for bad economic conditions in the US, so they won't question business and political leaders at home.

How many members of the Republican base question why rich people in the US hire illegal aliens?

You seem to be complaining about a minor problem, when there is a major problem going on.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

DeadPresident speaks only common sense. You don't have to live in America to understand spreading hate to a group of people because of their race is not only unproductive but morally wrong. You can't debate his actual point so you defend yourself by invalidating him on the basis of where he's from.

Only common sense, huh?

Isn't a little disingenuous to pretend like black resentment and white resentment are equally dangerous when Donald Trump and white nationalism are far more powerful and influential than Al Sharpton and black nationalism.

It's like complaining about an unsanitary kitchen while the Titanic is sinking.