Discussion: Racism - Part 1

[DeadPresident]

That what kills me. It's kind of like the police brutality stuff. For years it's been a common fact that they'd beat and kill minorities but now that there are cameras and it's being brought to the forefront, people still don't want to admit that there is a race problem. All you hear is why didn't they do what the officer says or if you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to fear. I've watched these same people who say minorities play the victim role but completely ignore the post of videos that show a clear abuse of power. Unless you grew up in that environment, to say someone is "playing" the victim role is not yours to call.

Are you saying every video shows an abuse of power? Because there were clear instances in some where the person did something wrong, and if it had been a white man he likely still would've been shot. And how many of these cases are there in the grander scheme of police shooting civilians?

There's a definite exposure-prevalence bias going on with how the media leaps onto these cases and circulates them for weeks, when statistically they're not that common, but because people see it everywhere for weeks on end it appears to be this pervasive, inescapable problem.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

It's not the same old argument, and here's why: You're confusing institutional racism with social racism. Of course racism still exists, and there is social conduct that needs to be addressed because it is racist. The issue is a lot of people are shouting racism saying America is a racist country, the police (as an institution, important distinction) are racist, companies are racist, etc, etc. That's clearly not the case because as far as I'm aware there is no more racist legislation or explicitly racist laws. Therefore it is markedly different from the times you're referencing.

I think you're confusing de jure racial discrimination with institutional racism. De jure discrimination, like Jim Crow laws, was abolished by the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Institutional racism is structural and systemic as opposed to the actions of "a few bad apples."

Kwame Ture, along with Charles V. Hamilton,[78] is credited with coining the phrase "institutional racism". This is defined as racism that occurs through institutions such as public bodies and corporations, including universities. In the late 1960s Ture defined "institutional racism" as "the collective failure of an organization to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their color, culture or ethnic origin"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

 

[hellified]

It's not the same old argument, and here's why: You're confusing institutional racism with social racism. Of course racism still exists, and there is social conduct that needs to be addressed because it is racist. The issue is a lot of people are shouting racism saying America is a racist country, the police (as an institution, important distinction) are racist, companies are racist, etc, etc. That's clearly not the case because as far as I'm aware there is no more racist legislation or explicitly racist laws. Therefore it is markedly different from the times you're referencing.

So, if a white cop shoots a black man wrongfully and it's because the man was black, is that because the police as an institution are racist, or is it because certain individuals in that profession are racist? It's not institutional racism just because it happens in a professional capacity. If a white guy works at a bank and he's an ***hole to a black guy because the guy is black when he comes to deposit money it's not the bank (institution) that's racist, it's that one ***hole.

When you're talking about the racist healthcare, housing, etc what exactly are you referring to? Are you referring to letters on a bill, or is this a perception? Since this appears to go lost on people often, I'm not being facetious, I'm asking genuinely, because it's important to this distinction.

what youre talking about is called distinctions without a difference.

Ferguson Police Routinely Violate Rights of Blacks, Justice Dept. Finds

The criminal justice system in Ferguson works differently for blacks and whites.

* A black motorist who is pulled over is twice as likely to be searched as a white motorist, even though searches of white drivers are more likely to turn up drugs or other contraband, the report found.

* Minor, largely discretionary offenses such as disturbing the peace and jaywalking were brought almost exclusively against blacks. When whites were charged with these crimes, they were 68 percent more likely to have their cases dismissed, the Justice Department found.

* It describes a city where the police used force almost exclusively on blacks and regularly stopped people without probable cause.

* Racial bias is so ingrained, the report said, that Ferguson officials circulated racist jokes on their government email accounts.


now will you find a law or code that says that crap is okay to do? No...but its the culture of the police force and city council.. and the people that live there are being affected by it in real ways everyday. so whats the difference really? If the mayor, police chief and city council members are in on it..to the people who live with it it MAY AS WELL BE LAW. All the gatekeepers are complicit. When you have individuals in a position to affect PEOPLES lives first of all they can't do that WITHOUT others being aware which means using your example that cop and that banker aren't doing those things to ONE black person..theyre doing it to black PEOPLE and in order for them to getaway with doing that to a PEOPLE others with knowledge of that activity are letting it go or ignoring it. So now you have a culture and in a very real way whats the difference between an institution and a culture? Not much if ANY. So it may not be law but it is in FACT which is what defacto means and you expect the people who are real victims of that culture to be somehow soothed by the notion that because there are no written laws its somehow different???

There are laws against rape in the prison system..but it happens..in fact theres plenty of evidence that prison staff KNOW whats happening and allow it to happen. So the person who complains about being raped repeatedly in prison and then claim that because guards and staff turn a blind eye to it its systemic...YOUR counter to that person is its not systemic or institutional because there are no laws that allow it so the problem of that prisoner getting raped must be his own fault somehow.

Additionally, would you agree the black community in America has any personal responsibility, with things like out of proportion violence in the black communities, or is it the monolith of "America" that needs to change and then the problems in those communities will all disappear?

see the above example. Also again 115 years ago people were asking why are italian immigrants so much more violent blah blah..today NO ONE talks about violence and italians because now they're considered white and it would be silly to distinguish them from other white people wouldn't it? And there is your example of America making a change and the problems of that community disappeared.

How is it that a statistic like single motherhood can rise from 20 something percent to sixty something percent from a more racist period in the 60s to a less racist period like now? The problem I'm seeing is there's no way to distinguish between where personal responsibility starts and prevalent institutional practices begin, and we'd need observable proof of them.

The problem is youre looking for something codified rather than the practice and perversion of the programs and the gatekeepers who run them or fight against it.

Again, for your aspersions about Elder to be true we'd need to be talking about a time when there was legislated racism, it isn't so they're not the same contexts. There's a lot of negativity from the black community towards any other black American who seems to not allow his race to dictate his circumstances, which is interesting.

culture vs codified There is no negativity towards blacks who achieve its only when they turn around and act like just because they got through means the obstacles and hurdles don't exist and those that haven't means they just didn't try hard enough. Hence a black man in 1960 saying "biggest problem for the negro is that he feels sorry for himself" And elder can pretend that a culture of racial bias doesn't exist because there are no codified laws on it.

 

[chaseter]

You use a handful of bad apples to say the entire tree is rotten. You are vastly overreaching. What happens in Ferguson doesn't mean that is what is happening everywhere. You also leave out parallel crime statistics to cover the holes in your narrative...

Institutional racism is unlawful. It is dead. That is de jure. An institution is a public pillar built within the law and compromised of people. That you see, is the problem...de facto if you will. It's made of people. Guess what!? People are racist. Racism will always exist in every creed, culture, religion, etc. It's exactly like greed. It's sadly human nature. Good people rise above. However, we need laws in place to check those that cannot rise above or choose not to. Institutional racism is dead. However, people can be racist and hold power to influence others. That sadly will never change. All we can do is call that out and condemn those people.

I truly believe most people are able to overcome. I believe racism is largely extinct. However, right now, the media is amplifying those few bad apples and I am seeing the tables being turned. I am seeing victims become culprits...turning into what previous generations fought to overcome. Rise above.

 

[hellified]

You use a handful of bad apples to say the entire tree is rotten. You are vastly overreaching. What happens in Ferguson doesn't mean that is what is happening everywhere. You also leave out parallel crime statistics to cover the holes in your narrative...

Institutional racism is unlawful. It is dead. That is de jure. An institution is a public pillar built within the law and compromised of people. That you see, is the problem...de facto if you will. It's made of people. Guess what!? People are racist. Racism will always exist in every creed, culture, religion, etc. It's exactly like greed. It's sadly human nature. Good people rise above. However, we need laws in place to check those that cannot rise above or choose not to. Institutional racism is dead. However, people can be racist and hold power to influence others. That sadly will never change. All we can do is call that out and condemn those people.

I truly believe most people are able to overcome. I believe racism is largely extinct. However, right now, the media is amplifying those few bad apples and I am seeing the tables being turned. I am seeing victims become culprits...turning into what previous generations fought to overcome. Rise above.

Its interesting that any stats and studies that show its more than just a "few bad apples" is blown off but stats and studies on issues in the black community/black america is just indicative of a culture of pathology in the group. There are 40 million black people in america the vast majority of whom do not commit crimes, take care of their kids and are just trying to get thru their day just like everyone else yet the ongoing narrative is paint the entire group as one thing based on actions of a few. Do that with cops and youre being ridiculous, do that with white people and its insane..do that with blacks or muslims or whatever "other" you want to alienate and exclude and of course..look at stats..numbers and studies don't lie...except when they make YOU look bad.

Its funny you equate racism as human nature like greed...well over 5000 people involved in the wells fargo fraud scandal going on up to the top of change of command and NOT ONE PERSON who had power and knowledge of that crap will ever do a perp walk. Not one person will lose their freedom for committing CRIMES in that scandal. Now swap out greed with racism on that same scale and you get what you saw in ferguson in anger and protests. But people like you and larry elder will downplay that in favor of focusing on michael brown and trying to deconstruct the issues that people in that town were complaining about LONG BEFORE michael brown happened. Larry elder will NEVER speak on the corruption of that town that was the true culprit that let to the unrest. And yes you are fooling yourself if you think thats a one off thing.

I saw a youtube vid of a cop talking about all the good things she's done, helped the elderly, saved a baby etc etc..I don't dispute any of that..but heres some questions:
How many cops in her dept does she know that are racist?
How many cops in her dept does she know are corrupt?
How many cops in her dept does she know cut corners?
How many have done something wrong and their partner covered for them, or the FOP or she was asked to not say anything about some illegal thing or violation a cop did?

Its not enough to say their are some "bad apples" but the majority are good. if the good ones tolerate the bad ones then nothing changes. The black community is constantly told we need to clean up our own neighborhoods but the police community is never told to do the same.

 

[DeadPresident]

what youre talking about is called distinctions without a difference.

Ferguson Police Routinely Violate Rights of Blacks, Justice Dept. Finds

The criminal justice system in Ferguson works differently for blacks and whites.

* A black motorist who is pulled over is twice as likely to be searched as a white motorist, even though searches of white drivers are more likely to turn up drugs or other contraband, the report found.

* Minor, largely discretionary offenses such as disturbing the peace and jaywalking were brought almost exclusively against blacks. When whites were charged with these crimes, they were 68 percent more likely to have their cases dismissed, the Justice Department found.

* It describes a city where the police used force almost exclusively on blacks and regularly stopped people without probable cause.

* Racial bias is so ingrained, the report said, that Ferguson officials circulated racist jokes on their government email accounts.


now will you find a law or code that says that crap is okay to do? No...but its the culture of the police force and city council.. and the people that live there are being affected by it in real ways everyday. so whats the difference really? If the mayor, police chief and city council members are in on it..to the people who live with it it MAY AS WELL BE LAW. All the gatekeepers are complicit. When you have individuals in a position to affect PEOPLES lives first of all they can't do that WITHOUT others being aware which means using your example that cop and that banker aren't doing those things to ONE black person..theyre doing it to black PEOPLE and in order for them to getaway with doing that to a PEOPLE others with knowledge of that activity are letting it go or ignoring it. So now you have a culture and in a very real way whats the difference between an institution and a culture? Not much if ANY. So it may not be law but it is in FACT which is what defacto means and you expect the people who are real victims of that culture to be somehow soothed by the notion that because there are no written laws its somehow different???

There are laws against rape in the prison system..but it happens..in fact theres plenty of evidence that prison staff KNOW whats happening and allow it to happen. So the person who complains about being raped repeatedly in prison and then claim that because guards and staff turn a blind eye to it its systemic...YOUR counter to that person is its not systemic or institutional because there are no laws that allow it so the problem of that prisoner getting raped must be his own fault somehow.

So are you using the isolated town/city of Ferguson to try and support the argument that America as a whole has a racism issue? That's what it looks like you're doing. What about the myriad of other statistics cited by people like Elder that indicate in specific circumstances that black Americans actually get preferential treatment, such as college acceptance habits being heavily skewed in favor of black Americans and against Asian Americans?

You're deliberately arguing one side to support your view that the USA has some kind of conspiratorial cabal plotting against the progress of black America. The logic that "According to a narrow set of stats in a specific area related to black Americans there is prejudice = Life in general is bad for black Americans" is reaching of the worst kind.

Also, your prison example is so spurious it isn't even funny, you leap from no laws sanctioning an action straight to victim blaming…? Last time I checked not looting a store or deciding to finish high school weren't quite as difficult as avoiding rape or murder in prison. Unless, of course, the audacity of the USA to ask people not to break the law or finish secondary education is tantamount to rape?

see the above example. Also again 115 years ago people were asking why are italian immigrants so much more violent blah blah..today NO ONE talks about violence and italians because now they're considered white and it would be silly to distinguish them from other white people wouldn't it? And there is your example of America making a change and the problems of that community disappeared.

Based on personal conjecture or actual statistics? Find me the statistics that indicate a similar percentage of Italians killing one another vs being killed by police and I'll concede. Why do you shift from discussing the specific point I raised by going to a historic example where there may or may not be similarities? Otherwise all you're doing is trying to draw vaguely allegorical similarities together to try and support your point with no evidence, which doesn't work.

The problem is youre looking for something codified rather than the practice and perversion of the programs and the gatekeepers who run them or fight against it.

Umm…what does some codified prevalence have to do with single motherhood rate? You're throwing out critical theory jargon without any valid examples for the term. "Perversion of the programs and the gatekeepers who run them" - So essentially there isn't enough leadership that is socializing and disciplining individuals to be less racist? And please explain to me how America's obstacles and the prevalence of the "perversions of the programs" have somehow gotten worse from the 1960s? Who are these mystical gatekeepers? Again, some kind of shadowy organization that meets and agrees to subjugate specific races, or is it that certain individuals are racist?

How has the USA suddenly become "more racist: in 2016 than 1963? Hold the correct people accountable then, too. How is it that people perceive things have gotten worse for black Americans when there is a black president and black Americans are holding some of the highest legislative and governmental positions in the country? It sounds like the president wasn't doing his job then. Maybe, instead of giving tours of the WH to kids taking digital clocks to school he should've been addressing this rampant proliferation of racism you've identified?

culture vs codified There is no negativity towards blacks who achieve its only when they turn around and act like just because they got through means the obstacles and hurdles don't exist and those that haven't means they just didn't try hard enough. Hence a black man in 1960 saying "biggest problem for the negro is that he feels sorry for himself" And elder can pretend that a culture of racial bias doesn't exist because there are no codified laws on it.

But it would appear some people revel in focusing on the obstacles instead of their own conduct. Your entire response was a bunch of terminological vagueties that help you dance around the fact that you can't provide any evidence for your position other than isolated examples you're trying to extrapolate to an entire country.

Basic statistics here, it invalidates a claim completely when you try and use a sample size so small it's practically irrelevant to try and make inferences about an entire population.

Again, I'm not claiming there is no racism, of course there is, but I reject the notion that the only thing standing in black America's way of living the lives they want is racism, and I also reject that it's the largest contributor. Is it a problem? Yeah, it is, everywhere in the world where there isn't a homogenous population. Is it a big problem? Show me the statistics that indicate that it is and I'll concede. But all you or most posters have done in here is offer your personal opinions and tried to spin anecdotal, narrow evidence into claiming racism is some kind of inescapable, entrenched mire that black Americans can't get out of.

Another example Elder has used several times is that of two parent households. Regardless of race a child from a two parent household is exponentially more likely to succeed in life than a child from a single parent household. The statistic of how many fatherless homes there are in the USA has risen dramatically over the last four decades across all racial groups and it comes with an almost identical percentage decrease in living standards across all races. Elder even quotes a statistic that black two-parent households on average earn more than white two-parent households. How do these statistics, and not the dramatized and sensationalized isolated incidents that get tossed around the media ad nauseam, suggest that racism is a massive problem?

For citation's sake:

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[DeadPresident]

I think you're confusing de jure racial discrimination with institutional racism. De jure discrimination, like Jim Crow laws, was abolished by the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Institutional racism is structural and systemic as opposed to the actions of "a few bad apples."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

This is another case of leftists redefining a term as it suits them, the same way racism went from being "Discrimination or prejudice based on someone's race" to "Institutional power yielded by hegemonic groups against non-hegemonic groups" that got us to the point where some people believe black people are incapable of being racist because as a monolithic group they "have no institutional power". It's a farce and passes no logical muster, sadly.

Structural and systemic, define those for me please. Because if structural means that if I'm an employee at the post office and I refuse to deliver mail to people of other races that it's an example of "institutional racism" because I happen to be doing it in a professional capacity then you don't really understand what you're talking about. An institution can't be racist, there are only people engaging in racist behavior. And if you believe that the predominant response to certain races from certain institutions is racist, provide the evidence, and then start petitioning with the leadership and managing committees of those institutions or organizations to address the racism you can prove is systemic and endemic to those institutions.

Lastly, provide evidence for "institutional racism", please. I already know you can't, though, and that's why the term has become so catchy among people, because you can say it's a problem without providing any proof. People are constantly conflating racist individuals within certain institutions as those institutions magically developing sentience and maliciously behaving in a racist manner.

 

[DeadPresident]

Let's do some basic logical deduction here:

If (by Obama's own statements) any child (irrespective of race) that grows up without a father is 5 times more likely to be poor, 9 times more likely not to finish high school, and 20 times more likely to end up in jail, and the rate of absent fathers is highest among black American families doesn't that make a far more likely empirical argument for lifestyle standards, or must it simply be racism that causes this because that's the emotionally satisfying answer?

It's incredibly simple, actually. Certain indicators, like finishing high school, being from a two parent household and getting a degree are almost invariably linked to a certain quality of living standards. Across all racial groups those are the deciding factors that have a massive effect on the outcome of someone's life, not infrequent racist engagements. And if people accept that and their concerns are the amount of racist incidents that occur, why whine about it on a message board? You live in the greatest constitutional democracy in the world, raise the concerns with those leaders of the social and governmental organizations that can address it.

 

[chamber-music]

Cops in the UK don't always get it right but I commend them for addressing these issues.

New standards and training for police officers using stop and search are to be rolled out across England and Wales.

It will be the first time national standards have been established since the powers were introduced in 1984.
Police will take an online course and sit an exam which will test when they should use the powers and challenge any "unconscious bias" they might have.

It follows government criticism last year over some police forces' use of the controversial searches.
The plans were prompted by research into the powers by the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
The College of Policing said it now hopes the training and standards will educate police officers to perform the searches so they are "fair, legal, professional and transparent."
College spokesman Richard Bennett said: "We wish to see no unjustifiable stops.

"We want to say 'this is the training, this is the guidance, this is the standard'... and that may lead to fewer searches being conducted."

Mr Bennett said that the course will also address unconscious bias amongst police officers, and how it might affect their judgement on duty.

"What we are hoping to do is to ensure that officers become aware of their own unconscious biases and that they counteract those biases so that when they make objective decisions about the exercise of a policing power that those biases do not come into play."

In 2014, the the home secretary Theresa May said: "Nobody wins when stop and search is misapplied. It is a waste of police time.

"It is unfair, especially to young black men. It is bad for public confidence in the police."
That year all 43 police forces in England and Wales greed to adopt a government code of conduct on the use of their powers to stop and search members of the public.

The new online course and recording standards have been piloted in six force areas by some 1,300 officers.
Of those officers who took part, 80% said the training was either "good or excellent".

According to the Home Office, in the year 2014-15 the total number of stops and searches carried out in England and Wales had fallen by almost two thirds - 58% - since March 2011 after concerns that the powers were being used excessively, especially against ethnic minorities.

Despite fewer being made, people who considered themselves from BME groups were about twice as likely to be stopped by police than those who said they were white, and people who considered themselves black are still four times more likely to be stopped and searched.

Mr Bennett said: "Because people from BME backgrounds very often live in disadvantaged areas they quite often live in high crime areas, and they are disproportionately both victims of crime.

"If policing activity occurs in that area then there is likely to be a degree of disproportionality.

"We can have these arguments until the cows come home, but what we need to do is make sure officers have the guidance and training so that every single stop and search they carry out is fully justified in terms of there being appropriate levels of suspicion."

Inspector Garth Stinson, the College of Policing's lead on stop and search, explained that it is hoped any future arguments about the use of stop and search will be resolved through better recording of reasons for searches, and by police using them as a "power not a tactic".

"We're trying to get back to basics - just because you have got information about somebody doesn't mean you should walk with the assumption that you're going to search them," he said.

"Members of the public who are stopped should feel they've been treated with dignity and respect."
Police officers will start taking the course in the next few weeks and it is hoped that all of the roughly 100,000 constables and sergeants will have completed training by the end of 2017.

In Scotland, a consultation on police stop and search powers was launched in March of this year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37780258

 

[DeadPresident]

What statistics are they using to say that the stop and searches have been inefficient or racist in the past? Or are they doing this because the concept of unconscious bias, for which there is no relevant empirical data, is suddenly a buzzword?

 

[TheCommissioner]

all of the defendants in the Oregon standoff were found 'NOT GUILTY'

that is white privilege, hell that is institutionalized white privilege

 

[DeadPresident]

The words you're looking for are "hegemonic power" - it will be the same for ethnic Japanese in Japan, Arabs in the UAE, higher caste Indians, etc. Institutional also means nothing anymore, it's the first cop out people reach for when they have no proof anything top-down was relevant, then we have to yell "institutional ________" to try and make the point seem valid.

It's a little pathetic when people don't think on a broader level about an issue but prefer to simplify it to whatever fits their limited view. I may have to go to my notes to double check this; but not everything in the USA has race as its primary causal factor.

 

[hellified]

So are you using the isolated town/city of Ferguson to try and support the argument that America as a whole has a racism issue? That's what it looks like you're doing. What about the myriad of other statistics cited by people like Elder that indicate in specific circumstances that black Americans actually get preferential treatment, such as college acceptance habits being heavily skewed in favor of black Americans and against Asian Americans?

are you saying the country as a whole doesn't have a racism issue?
And how do you know ferguson is isolated? The DOJ didn't go in there looking for that specifically they DISCOVERED that while investigating the mike brown case. Which means if we were holding this debate in say a year before the brown incident you and larry elder would swear that what the citizens of that town were complaining about was just not true. Now that its PROVEN to be true..its isolated..what if youre wrong about that?

And white women get preferential treatment through the same programs as much if not more than blacks. So what..

You're deliberately arguing one side to support your view that the USA has some kind of conspiratorial cabal plotting against the progress of black America. The logic that "According to a narrow set of stats in a specific area related to black Americans there is prejudice = Life in general is bad for black Americans" is reaching of the worst kind.

is this a joke? From slavery to black codes and the deconstruction of reconstruction to vagrancy laws and jim crow to redlining to the southern strategy to the war on drugs all those things cover from the 19th century to the 21st century and you say there hasn't been conspiratorial plot against the progress of black americans?? LMAO

Also, your prison example is so spurious it isn't even funny, you leap from no laws sanctioning an action straight to victim blaming…? Last time I checked not looting a store or deciding to finish high school weren't quite as difficult as avoiding rape or murder in prison. Unless, of course, the audacity of the USA to ask people not to break the law or finish secondary education is tantamount to rape?

no your point is that becuz there are no actual codes or laws on the books condoning some kind of action or behavior means that there is no systemic feature and therefore its not really as bad as its made to be. There is no law that condones rape in prison but it happens and there are people in power to stop it and they don't which is tantamount to it being condoned hence the term defacto..not in law but in fact. Ferguson is a perfect example of this. In that case the fact that its not codified doesn't mean anything.

Based on personal conjecture or actual statistics? Find me the statistics that indicate a similar percentage of Italians killing one another vs being killed by police and I'll concede. Why do you shift from discussing the specific point I raised by going to a historic example where there may or may not be similarities? Otherwise all you're doing is trying to draw vaguely allegorical similarities together to try and support your point with no evidence, which doesn't work.

That was about the narrative created by the use of statistics. Stats can be used to isolate the "other" and the narrative created by that is to justify treating them in a particular way.

Umm…what does some codified prevalence have to do with single motherhood rate? You're throwing out critical theory jargon without any valid examples for the term. "Perversion of the programs and the gatekeepers who run them" - So essentially there isn't enough leadership that is socializing and disciplining individuals to be less racist? And please explain to me how America's obstacles and the prevalence of the "perversions of the programs" have somehow gotten worse from the 1960s? Who are these mystical gatekeepers? Again, some kind of shadowy organization that meets and agrees to subjugate specific races, or is it that certain individuals are racist?

[YT]X_8E3ENrKrQ[/YT]
You start out in 1954 by saying, “Ni**er, ni**er, ni**er.” By 1968 you can’t say “ni**er”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Ni**er, ni**er.”

thats one example and one thats STILL happening today.The GOP STILL runs that playbook.

How has the USA suddenly become "more racist: in 2016 than 1963? Hold the correct people accountable then, too. How is it that people perceive things have gotten worse for black Americans when there is a black president and black Americans are holding some of the highest legislative and governmental positions in the country? It sounds like the president wasn't doing his job then. Maybe, instead of giving tours of the WH to kids taking digital clocks to school he should've been addressing this rampant proliferation of racism you've identified?

I never said any of that..I said: Are things AS bad as they were in 1960..no but then things in 1960 weren't AS BAD as they were in 1900 either but that doesn't mean there weren't real issues. So a generation in 2060 looking back at 2016 is going to say how did you guys from that time NOT see the issues then? And larry elder will be regarded at that future time just as that young black man (who grew up seeing jim crow signs and laws mind you yet says the crap he said) in the Malcolm X vid is regarded TODAY. Out of touch.

Again, I'm not claiming there is no racism, of course there is, but I reject the notion that the only thing standing in black America's way of living the lives they want is racism, and I also reject that it's the largest contributor. Is it a problem? Yeah, it is, everywhere in the world where there isn't a homogenous population. Is it a big problem? Show me the statistics that indicate that it is and I'll concede. But all you or most posters have done in here is offer your personal opinions and tried to spin anecdotal, narrow evidence into claiming racism is some kind of inescapable, entrenched mire that black Americans can't get out of.

Another example Elder has used several times is that of two parent households. Regardless of race a child from a two parent household is exponentially more likely to succeed in life than a child from a single parent household. The statistic of how many fatherless homes there are in the USA has risen dramatically over the last four decades across all racial groups and it comes with an almost identical percentage decrease in living standards across all races. Elder even quotes a statistic that black two-parent households on average earn more than white two-parent households. How do these statistics, and not the dramatized and sensationalized isolated incidents that get tossed around the media ad nauseam, suggest that racism is a massive problem?

yes its a big problem and the root cause for the very stats you keep spouting. You are right in that racism is a problem everywhere in the world where there isn't a homogeneous population. And in those countries you will find comparable negative stats for the group who is subjected to it.

In Japan the Ainu: "Ainu are in difficult economic and social position," says Shunwa Honda, a former professor of the Open University of Japan and a scholar of indigenous ethnic groups.
"Twice the number of Ainu are on social welfare compared to the majority Japanese population. Education levels are much lower and they have economic restraints."

Australia and Aborigines: Since 1989, the imprisonment rate of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people has increased 12 times faster than the rate for non-Aboriginal people [19]. In June 2015 the rate was 2,047 prisoners per 100,000 adult Aboriginal population. Only 2 years later the rate had increased by more than 10% to 2,257

New Zealand and the Māori: crime statistics are compounded by the over-representation of Māori. Though Maori make up only 12.5% of the general population aged 15 and over,[28] 42% of all criminal apprehensions involve a person identifying as Maori, as do 50% of those in prison. For Maori women, the picture is even more acute: they comprise around 60% of the female prison population.[29]
A report by the Corrections Department says: "The figures lend themselves to extremist interpretations: at one end, some accuse the criminal justice system of being brutally racist, as either intentionally or unintentionally destructive to the interests and well-being of Māori as a people. At the other, there are those who dismiss the entire Māori race as constitutionally 'criminally inclined'.

All over the world you see the same stats from violence to prison to household and the same results and STILL say is racism the real culprit??
At this point I'm starting to believe youre trolling.


As far as the part about: Elder even quotes a statistic that black two-parent households on average earn more than white two-parent households.

A recent study by the Pew Research Center used data from the Federal Reserve Survey of Consumer Finance to show that the median white American household has 13 times the wealth of the median black household. But the data used to support this study’s bleak findings may have used accounting that actually understates the gap in wealth between white and black families.

According to Wolff’s calculations, the median black family is actually only worth $1,700 when you deduct these durables. In contrast, the median white family holds $116,800 of wealth using the same accounting methods. Black household wealth, Wolff adds, actually fell during the Great Recession from $6,700 to $1,700.
http://inequality.org/racial-wealth-gap-worse-thought/

Among households with positive wealth growth during the 25-year study period, the number of years of homeownership accounts for 27 percent of the difference in relative wealth growth between white and African-American families, the largest portion of the growing wealth gap. The second largest share of the increase, accounting for 20 percent, is average family income. Highly educated households correlate strongly with larger wealth portfolios, but similar college degrees produce more wealth for whites, contributing 5 percent of the proportional increase in the racial wealth gap.

http://iasp.brandeis.edu/pdfs/Author/shapiro-thomas-m/racialwealthgapbrief.pdf

 

[DeadPresident]

You used the words "narrative created through the use of statistics" - some other points you made were valid but that sentence right there shows how feelings and perceptions are more important to you than facts and reason, there's no point in continuing when that's your point of departure.

Btw, if the median white household has 13 times more wealth that can only be because of some pervasive racism or discrimination, right? It can never be because they make better financial decisions, right? Everything you said was designed to "create the narrative" that black people have no agency, that all their plights are as a result of some external, undefeatable force and never as a consequence of their own action - a favorite concept of the left all over the world in relation to whatever pet minorities they use as captive votes.

When statistics become some kind of malicious, horrible thing that you're confusing for cold, hard facts, you're beyond reason.

 

[DeadPresident]

Just to point out the differences in our arguments:

I'm claiming (in line with Elder's assertions): Rise in the welfare state (rewarding fatherless homes) -> Increase in fatherless homes -> Increase in social ills across racial groups of high school dropouts, increase in incarceration, increase in likelihood of poverty. Statistical data following this line of logic is abundant, the correlation between single-parent households and social problems is well documented.

Your claim: Indicate a difference between white/black incomes -> Without proof you claim the cause must be racism. No evidence to back up the claim besides differences in groups, which you attribute to prevalent racism.

You conveniently leave out the fact that Asian Americans earn far more than white and black households, but for some reason when there's a difference between Asian Americans and everyone else your logic of difference = discrimination/racism doesn't get brought up. There must be Asian privilege and some kind of Asian banker conspiracy to keep them richer than all other Americans, according to your logic, correct?

When I cite statistics to make a logical A->B->C argument where my arguments are supported by my premises I'm "using statistics to create a narrative", when you use statistics that don't have any correlation between your argument and your premise then that's not "using statistics to create a narrative", I assume?

 

[hellified]

You used the words "narrative created through the use of statistics" - some other points you made were valid but that sentence right there shows how feelings and perceptions are more important to you than facts and reason, there's no point in continuing when that's your point of departure.

Btw, if the median white household has 13 times more wealth that can only be because of some pervasive racism or discrimination, right? It can never be because they make better financial decisions, right? Everything you said was designed to "create the narrative" that black people have no agency, that all their plights are as a result of some external, undefeatable force and never as a consequence of their own action - a favorite concept of the left all over the world in relation to whatever pet minorities they use as captive votes.

When statistics become some kind of malicious, horrible thing that you're confusing for cold, hard facts, you're beyond reason.

So you believe that all white people consistently make better financial decisions than blacks and pretty much any nonwhite people...all the time going back generations. that makes sense to you. Since you love stats so much going by those numbers that means chances are larry elder himself with all of his education, intelligence and work ethic MOST LIKELY HAS LESS WEALTH than a white guy or Asian guy with a similar background. You think he'd be willing to admit he made or makes bad life choices and thats the reason for his situation looking that way (assuming it does and statistically it most likely is).

The one thing you can't reconcile easily with the "its your own fault" line of thinking is that across the world were racism rears its ugly head you see the same stats. The pattern is there unless you're willing to believe that all those peoples and groups uniformly make bad life decisions.

Just to point out the differences in our arguments:

I'm claiming (in line with Elder's assertions): Rise in the welfare state (rewarding fatherless homes) -> Increase in fatherless homes -> Increase in social ills across racial groups of high school dropouts, increase in incarceration, increase in likelihood of poverty. Statistical data following this line of logic is abundant, the correlation between single-parent households and social problems is well documented.

Your claim: Indicate a difference between white/black incomes -> Without proof you claim the cause must be racism. No evidence to back up the claim besides differences in groups, which you attribute to prevalent racism.

You conveniently leave out the fact that Asian Americans earn far more than white and black households, but for some reason when there's a difference between Asian Americans and everyone else your logic of difference = discrimination/racism doesn't get brought up. There must be Asian privilege and some kind of Asian banker conspiracy to keep them richer than all other Americans, according to your logic, correct?

When I cite statistics to make a logical A->B->C argument where my arguments are supported by my premises I'm "using statistics to create a narrative", when you use statistics that don't have any correlation between your argument and your premise then that's not "using statistics to create a narrative", I assume?

as for your model minority assertion:

we need to remember that not all Asian Americans are the same. For every Chinese American or South Asian who has a college degree, the same number of Southeast Asians are still struggling to adapt to their lives in the U.S. For example, as shown in the tables in the Socioeconomic Statistics & Demographics article, Vietnamese Americans only have a college degree attainment rate of 20%, less than half the rate for other Asian American ethnic groups. The rates for Laotians, Cambodians, and Hmong are even lower at less than 10%.

The results show that as a whole Asian American families have higher median incomes than White families. However, this is because in most cases, the typical Asian American family tends to have more members who are working than the typical White family. It's not unusual for an Asian American family to have four, five, or more members working. The different faces of hard work © Jean-Marc Truchet/Getty Images A more telling statistic is median personal income (also known as per capita income). The results above show that Asian Americans still trail Whites on this very important measure.

Case in point, another reason why Asian American families tend to make more than White families is because, as described in the Population Statistics page, Asian Americans are much more likely to concentrate in metropolitan areas where the cost of living is much higher. Anyone who has lived in New York City (yours truly included) can attest to just how expensive it is to live in these cities. Therefore, Asian Americans may earn more but they also have to spend more to survive. In fact, research shows that within these metropolitan areas, Asian American incomes still trail that of Whites.


"Success" May Only Be Skin-Deep

Another telling statistic is how much more money a person earns with each additional year of schooling completed, or what sociologists call "returns on education." One of the first in-depth studies that looked at per capita income between Asian Americans and other racial/ethnic groups came from Robert Jiobu and is cited in Asian Americans: An Interpretive History by Sucheng Chan. Using this measure, research consistently shows that for each additional year of education attained, Whites earn another $522.

That is, beyond a high school degree, a White with 4 more years of education (equivalent to a college degree) can expect to earn $2088 per year in salary. In contrast, returns on each additional year of education for a Japanese American is only $438. For a Chinese American, it's $320. For Blacks, it's even worse at only $284. What this means is that basically, a typical Asian American has to get more years of education just to make the same amount of money that a typical White makes with less education.

Recent research from scholars such as Timothy Fong, Roderick Harrison, and Paul Ong, to name just a few, continues to confirm these findings that controlling for other variables, Asian Americans still earn less money than Whites with virtually equal qualifications. Once again, for each statistic that suggests everything is picture-perfect for Asian Americans, there is another that proves otherwise.

http://www.asian-nation.org/model-minority.shtml

if thats all true ( and I'm sure you don't believe it) then that means according to your line of logic those asians are responsible and culpable in a large way for making well under a 1000 dollars less compared to the white guy with just as much or maybe LESS education than they have. Guess they just made bad choices right??

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

A Gut-Wrenching Story From Djimon Hounsou Shows Why Superhero Diversity Is So Important

Djimon Hounsou (The Legend of Tarzan, but, more relevantly here, the voice of T’Challa in the animated Black Panther TV miniseries) told a story about his son and superheroes in an interview that is heartbreaking. Luckily, he also gave a great answer about how to react to people who agitate against greater representation in film.

In The Guardian, an interviewer brought up that with Luke Cage and Black Panther, there is suddenly a much more visible presence of black superheroes in live-action superheroing. Hounsou responded with this story about his son:

It’s about time! It’s absolutely great news to have a hero that black folks can identify with. Could you imagine my misfortune when my son told me: “I want to be light-skinned so I can climb the walls like Spider-Man” – just because he has seen Spider-Man and Batman and all these superheroes who were all white. The minute he said it, I was like, damn. My whole self was shattered. I was like, wow, what sort of comeback do you have for this? It’s important to recognize yourself. It’s absolutely important. That’s the value in telling stories. There’s a reason why we create fantasy stories, so we can surpass this life condition.​

Can you even imagine trying to figure out how to respond to that? A kid whose parents are an actor and a model still manages to internalize racism. That’s how insidious this problem is.

It’s feelings like what his Hounsou’s son had that make representation in popular culture vital. And while any number of diverse characters may exist in the long, long history of comics, the average kid is way more aware of what’s on TV and in theaters. They’re even more aware of what’s being sold as a toy or costume or shirt or other merchandise, because that’s what other kids are going to bring to school. The less you see characters that look like you, the harder it is to feel like you matter.

On a less depressing note, Hounsou also had a comment on all the flak the 2016 Ghostbusters caught for its cast. The question from the interviewer is in bold:

There was a very strong reaction to the Ghostbusters remake from angry white guys. Where do you think this comes from?

Greed. I certainly don’t try to pay too much attention. It’s unfortunate but it’s OK. It just makes the fight that much sweeter.​

It’s simultaneously dismissive of the trolls and positive about the fight for representation. Very nice.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/a-gut-wrenching-story-from-djimon-hounsou-shows-why-sup-1788531723

 

[samsnee]

I feel afraid for every person of color right now.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I feel afraid for every person of color right now.

Gonna need the greatest American hero by the hundreds now... this man:

 

[Hypestyle]

Never underestimate "white backlash" to the perception of minorities becoming more mainstream.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

A resentful backlash about one's perceptions is no way to run government though.

 

[hellified]

I SAID IT BEFORE AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN...

SLAVE LAWS PASSED IN VIRGINIA:

1660 — 1680: Slave Laws Further Restrict Freedom of Blacks and Legalize Different Treatment for Blacks and Whites

1667 - Virginia lawmakers say baptism does not bring freedom to blacks. The statute is passed because some slaves used their status as a Christian in the 1640s and 1650s to argue for their freedom or for freedom for a child. Legislators also encourage slave owners to Christianize their enslaved men, women and children.
1668 - Free black women, like enslaved females over the age of 16, are deemed tithable. The Virginia General Assembly says freedom does not exempt black women from taxation.
1669 - An act about the "casual killing of slaves" says that if a slave dies while resisting his master, the act will not be presumed to have occurred with “prepensed malice.”
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1670 - Free blacks and Native Americans who had been baptized are forbidden to buy Christian servants.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1672 - It becomes legal to wound or kill an enslaved person who resists arrest. Legislators also deem that the owner of any slave killed as he resisted arrest will receive financial compensation for the loss of an enslaved laborer. Legislators also offer a reward to Indians who capture escaped slaves and return them to a justice of the peace.

that highlighted law in 1670 forbids free blacks and indians from owning WHITE SERVANTS (christian=white) so while free blacks could own other blacks they couldn't own whites by law...

That law effectively makes slavery chattel and also separates whites from nonwhites in the institution...Thus creating a perceived level that even the poorest white person can't fall below. Its the basis for all the race politics played out even today. .

Poor whites TODAY catch as much hell as poor minorities but have historically and consistently chosen their skin color over their class distinction because of that very law. This is why white racist groups consist primarily of poor whites, its also why the easiest way to get poor whites to vote AGAINST their economic best interest is to say it helps minorities but especially blacks and you will see poor whites viscerally angry in opposition to whatever measure is proposed even tho it benefits them too. American history has show that poor whites inevitably and invariably WILL choose their skin color over their class distinction whenever rich whites dangle that race politics carrot in their face and the root of that can be traced directly back to that time period.

YOU SAW IT HAPPEN IN REAL TIME PEOPLE!!!!

youre going to see a take down of Obamacare..a roll back of medicaid and welfare.. all of these things have the face of minorities but ALOT of poor whites use these entitlements too..ALOT of them..

its going to be a VERY interesting 4 years as the trump/GOP controlled congress WILL dismantle pretty much everything Obama did.

 

[Hypestyle]

with due deference to the statements of Sec. Clinton and Pres. Obama, I don't owe Trump a blessed thing except a beatdown if he comes through my neighborhood-- which he won't. There's a marginal chance he might send some black surrogates (it had better not be Omarosa: beloved, please take your money and just disappear somewhere; God bless.)
If he wants me to clap for him he can resign on January 20. I wish that Barack would pull off some gangster moves while he still controls the CIA. I won't mind. Force Trump to have a press conference where he announces that he's come down with some bigly prostate cancer, bad dandruff, whatever.. This cat ran damn near openly on a white supremacist platform, and millions of people of various levels of "education" helped him get over. You cannot divorce the triumph of Trump from racial pique over the first black president and casual sexism at the prospect of a first female president, which ran deep as hell in the electorate this time around. His rallies weren’t just chock full of moderates who otherwise have no racial-ethnic-gender-religious axe to grind. Barely-veiled animus directed at “the Other” existed out in the open, no longer limited to the kitchen table, the drinking pubs or church fellowship halls.


In the years before Mr. Trump finally became an official political candidate, I occasionally found him marginally amusing, but not admirable and certainly not any kind of role-model. But then he made the choice to jump on the Obama birth-certificate “scandal” bandwagon. He didn’t just run with it, he ran it into the ground. He basically updated the “(racial slur), show me your papers!!!!” oppression from the antebellum South era of old. I totally lost all respect for him as a human being from that point forward. He could have run for precinct delegate and I wouldn’t have been interested in voting for him. I remember Dr. Phil sheepishly attempting to defend him from the "racism" charges on the David Letterman show. This went beyond any sort of public criticism of a public official. This was outright slander with racial overtones. It was an ethical dealbreaker for me.

Even if you were to take the racially-coded venom out of the equation (as even many well-meaning white folks are known to do, let alone the reactionaries), the sexism would seem to be the most damning component of the public critiques of his character. There’s just no way that the comments made during TV interviews, radio interviews and Twitter rants could be taken as anything but boorish at best and toxically misogynist at worst. But over the past 18 months he became that “get-er-done” dude for the folks who found him charismatic and compelling. Larry the Cable Guy with a bad toupee and a possibly-China-assembled suit. (of course, I guess the pushback to that criticism is “Hey! If them chinese are dumb enough to sew suits for $1 an hour, Trump’s a genius!!) Being a tax scofflaw brings great political returns if you’re a white, anti-labor profiteerist.

But even beyond the candidate, it’s his movement and the enclaves of deeply rooted support for him that both galls and scares me; I don’t remotely relate to these as being any kind of social circles that I could even have a nominal kinship with. I don't live in any of these far-flung areas where fringe narratives like Obama's Kenya-birth/marxist/secret-Muslim/white-hating background is accepted as 'fact' like George Washington chopping down a cherry tree. I know I can't change the minds of these racial luddites and I’m not inclined to even try.

So at this point, screw it, y'all got it. White House, Senate, House, and Supreme Court judges further to the right of the late judge Scalia can be expected as the standard. Do yo' thang, white folks. People looking like me and living where I live got the double middle finger in a major way. I've emotionally checked out. The Trump movement's "success" means more stop-and-frisk in “inner cities” putting me at greater risk to go to jail or economically remaining mired in lower-wage work despite having a couple of post-high-school degrees. I can probably look forward to open war with some other random country, too; bravo. You just know that Venezuela is envious of all our Dairy Queen and Chik-Fil-A franchises...

 

[mclay18]

The racists are just coming out of the woodwork. I feel sick.

Day 1 in Trump's America

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

The racists are just coming out of the woodwork. I feel sick.

Day 1 in Trump's America

This makes me sick to my stomach