Discussion: Racism - Part 2

[DeadPresident]

I think where there is smoke, the fire is bigger than you think

I believe it is prevalent, and we are just hearing about it more BECAUSE of social media

because people are tired of accepting abuse

I think there are more "bad cops" then good ones, otherwise you'd have "the good ones" saying something and not fearing reprisals, death threats, etc

It's possible, I'll admit. Is it possible that we just tend to engage with specific things habitually on social media and it actually makes the problem seem bigger, though? And if I think incompetent civil servants are a big problem and I follow pages about that and I debate it on forums and post about it all the time it's a bigger thing to me personally than it may be statistically?

I think it's far more complicated and that our dependence and obsession with social/digital media has effects we're not aware of or close to understanding. I just find it too coincidental that with the rise of digital media the perception of prevalence has sky-rocketed but not necessarily in terms of statistical observation. I don't know, though, just spitballing.

 

[TheCommissioner]

I think you may be right about the perception part

but also it really hasn't been an issue addressed with any sort of sustained depth

 

[DeadPresident]

I think you may be right about the perception part

but also it really hasn't been an issue addressed with any sort of sustained depth

For sure, I'd agree. I think if I've realized anything over the last couple of years observing how people's beliefs are maintained/changed it's that we need more research on absolutely everything. I've noticed perceptions are either far too resilient to facts or not resilient enough to dramatic information and that we need more facts on pretty much everything we can think of.

Right now most people seem to operate on perception primarily and little on observable facts. Are 3 out of 5 cops racist psychopaths? Possibly. Are 1 out of 1000 cops racist psychopaths? Possibly. Without knowing which is objectively true it's difficult to come to any consensus about the correct approach, and until we know the extent of the issue any solution is a stab in the dark. It's possible the problem is so bad that the entire law enforcement system needs to be revamped, it's also possible it's minor enough that some additional training and screening could solve it completely. Digital media honestly makes me feel like I'm in a house of mirrors sometimes, like it's impossible to tell what the facts are in what seems like a basic scenario.

 

[hellified]

 

[DeadPresident]

In isolation that data says nothing, since the causal factors aren't identified. So those stats can be used to support whatever perspective someone has based on how they argue it. The causality behind those stats is what's important. The same as with income disparity you can find differences and claim it must be because of racism. I'll entertain that as a possibility but I'll wait for something concrete confirming it before I believe it.

If anything it seems more likely to be income related than anything else.

 

[Lighthouse]

Judge declared a mistrial. I just don't know what reality I'm living in anymore.

Walter Scott Shooting: Judge Declares Mistrial in Murder Trial of Former Cop Michael Slager

The defense in ex-patrolman Michael Slager's the five-week trial claimed that he feared for his life when 50-year-old Walter Scott got control of the officer's stun gun and pointed it at him.

But Scott was shot five times in the back while running from Slager during a routine traffic stop.

 

[RockSP]

I just don't know what reality I'm living in anymore.

 

[Kyle]

I didn't think much would be done against Native Americans, since outside of Standing Rock and other tragedies like that - don't hear about that that often in the news.

 

[Kelly]

Judge declared a mistrial. I just don't know what reality I'm living in anymore.

Walter Scott Shooting: Judge Declares Mistrial in Murder Trial of Former Cop Michael Slager

1 juror hold out.

 

[RockSP]

I didn't think much would be done against Native Americans, since outside of Standing Rock and other tragedies like that - don't hear about that that often in the news.

Surely you realize that the news doesn't report everything that happens? DeadPresident's false premise that we think police brutality and/or murder happens more than it really does because of new coverage misses the obvious fact that the news wasn't always covering it, or that it doesn't cover MOST cases. Camera phones are a relatively new thing, so it's not like abuse was always being easily filmed. Police brutality wasn't a new thing when that Rodney King tape shocked white America decades ago.

 

[Kyle]

No, that's obvious but all across the board that's little talked about. If anything it shows how even more flawed the news is that native americans are the most targeted and few if they didn't see graphs would know that. Something like that needs to be known on a socially conscious level.

 

[DeadPresident]

Surely you realize that the news doesn't report everything that happens? DeadPresident's false premise that we think police brutality and/or murder happens more than it really does because of new coverage misses the obvious fact that the news wasn't always covering it, or that it doesn't cover MOST cases. Camera phones are a relatively new thing, so it's not like abuse was always being easily filmed. Police brutality wasn't a new thing when that Rodney King tape shocked white America decades ago.

And you have data about causality to back that up, not just your own perception?

You already have a conclusion in mind and you're working backwards to try and prove that, that's using false premises. I didn't make any claim, I said both are possible and we can't know which is true unless we get more research or data on it. You're just parroting the "bad things are happening = always racism" line.

I'm not denying there are racist cops, I'm just unsure it's an issue at the statistical prevalence people think it is, but I'm open to being wrong should someone be able to show me why.

 

[Docker2.0]

Surely you realize that the news doesn't report everything that happens? DeadPresident's false premise that we think police brutality and/or murder happens more than it really does because of new coverage misses the obvious fact that the news wasn't always covering it, or that it doesn't cover MOST cases. Camera phones are a relatively new thing, so it's not like abuse was always being easily filmed. Police brutality wasn't a new thing when that Rodney King tape shocked white America decades ago.

People think blacks and Latinos are messed up, people have no idea what Native Americans are going through right now on the DL. You are right! Just like the numerous shootings in Chicago that don't make the news, a lot of stuff happens in minority neighborhoods that don't get reported!

 

[hellified]

In isolation that data says nothing, since the causal factors aren't identified. So those stats can be used to support whatever perspective someone has based on how they argue it. The causality behind those stats is what's important. The same as with income disparity you can find differences and claim it must be because of racism. I'll entertain that as a possibility but I'll wait for something concrete confirming it before I believe it.

If anything it seems more likely to be income related than anything else.

youre never going to get an accurate honest causality finding because NO ONE IS GOING ADMIT THEY MAKE DECISIONS BASED ON RACE/GENDER ETC.

A cop kills an unarmed black suspect..is that cop ever going to admit that he/she has some kind of bias against black people which is the real reason why the incident escalated to the point of a drawn weapon?

"Officers expect and demand compliance even when they lack legal authority,” the report’s authors wrote.

“They are inclined to interpret the exercise of free-speech rights as unlawful disobedience, innocent movements as physical threats, indications of mental or physical illness as belligerence.”

The researchers also found significant differences in the way officers spoke to African Americans:

“Using only the words an officer uses during a traffic stop, we can predict whether that [officer] is talking to a black person or a white person” with 66 percent accuracy.

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/07/data-police-racial-bias

 

[DeadPresident]

youre never going to get an accurate honest causality finding because NO ONE IS GOING ADMIT THEY MAKE DECISIONS BASED ON RACE/GENDER ETC.

A cop kills an unarmed black suspect..is that cop ever going to admit that he/she has some kind of bias against black people which is the real reason why the incident escalated to the point of a drawn weapon?

"Officers expect and demand compliance even when they lack legal authority,” the report’s authors wrote.

“They are inclined to interpret the exercise of free-speech rights as unlawful disobedience, innocent movements as physical threats, indications of mental or physical illness as belligerence.”

The researchers also found significant differences in the way officers spoke to African Americans:

“Using only the words an officer uses during a traffic stop, we can predict whether that [officer] is talking to a black person or a white person” with 66 percent accuracy.

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/07/data-police-racial-bias

This is why I can't take you seriously, you post selective bits of research to try and support your point, leaving out context and detail completely. This "article" doesn't mention the socioeconomic indicators or pretty much any other relevant variable besides race, making it about as invalid and vague (and open to any interpretation, just as you want it) as possible. I especially like that graph you posted earlier about who police are killing. I went and found the actual research where they discuss the findings:

http://www.cjcj.org/news/8113

Now watch me do the same thing you do:

While recent killings by police in Ferguson, Missouri, and New York City receive national attention, the fact is that from 1999 through 2011, American law enforcement officers killed 4,531 people, 96 percent by firearms and 96 percent of them men, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.* The rate of police killings of African Americans has fallen by 70 percent over the last 40-50 years, but their risk remains much higher than that of Whites, Latinos, and Asians.

While statistics are always suspect over time, killings by law enforcement officers appear to be much lower today than in the past. In the late 1960s, nearly 100 young black men under age 25 were killed by law enforcement every year. Even as the black youth and young adult population doubled over the last 40 years, police shootings of young black men fell to around 35 per year in the 2000s, a rate decline of 79 percent. While younger African Americans were the victims in 1 in 4 killings by police in the 1968-74 period and 1 in 7 in 1975-84, today, that proportion is 1 in 10.

Similarly, police killings of African Americans 25 and older have declined by 61 percent since the late 1960s. Still, the rates for younger African Americans remain 4.5 times higher, and for older African Americans 1.7 times higher, than for other races and ages.

I suspect you didn't post links to the actual research because then your attempt at creating hysteria would be diminished. So what this research suggests is that the rate at which incidents and killings occur, especially in comparison to other racial groups, is a big problem. However, the percentage comparison being problematic does not negate the fact that the actual amount of police killings is decreasing significantly. You don't want people to know that, though, because then this narrative that the sky is falling and America is the most racist country in the world, etc, etc wouldn't fly. What this research suggests is that whatever variables result in black Americans being killed at a higher rate are still prevalent but at a diminishing rate. What law enforcement and American policy makers ought to be doing is finding out precisely which variables they are and what they can do to mitigate/eliminate them, along with diversity education and training as well as psychiatric screening before someone is admitted to a law enforcement unit.

I'm not going to be engaging with you again, since you're clearly incapable of a reasonable discussion. If you actually cared about the topics you claim you do maybe you'd stop trying to mislead people when discussing them and be interested in the truth and how to actually address the concerns you have, and surprisingly, that I actually share.

 

[chaseter]

Pair that with crime stats to show the full picture:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf

Violent crimes that likely involve a weapon, such as murder, are being perpetrated by blacks at a higher rate than whites while being 1/6 of the total population comparative to whites. No wonder cops are killing black men at a higher percentage rate than whites. Blacks commit over 50% of the murders in this country while being 12% of the total population. The violent crime stats are comparatively higher so the police lethal response rates are comparatively higher.

 

[hellified]

This is why I can't take you seriously, you post selective bits of research to try and support your point, leaving out context and detail completely. This "article" doesn't mention the socioeconomic indicators or pretty much any other relevant variable besides race, making it about as invalid and vague (and open to any interpretation, just as you want it) as possible. I especially like that graph you posted earlier about who police are killing. I went and found the actual research where they discuss the findings:

http://www.cjcj.org/news/8113

Now watch me do the same thing you do:

I suspect you didn't post links to the actual research because then your attempt at creating hysteria would be diminished. So what this research suggests is that the rate at which incidents and killings occur, especially in comparison to other racial groups, is a big problem. However, the percentage comparison being problematic does not negate the fact that the actual amount of police killings is decreasing significantly. You don't want people to know that, though, because then this narrative that the sky is falling and America is the most racist country in the world, etc, etc wouldn't fly. What this research suggests is that whatever variables result in black Americans being killed at a higher rate are still prevalent but at a diminishing rate. What law enforcement and American policy makers ought to be doing is finding out precisely which variables they are and what they can do to mitigate/eliminate them, along with diversity education and training as well as psychiatric screening before someone is admitted to a law enforcement unit.

I'm not going to be engaging with you again, since you're clearly incapable of a reasonable discussion. If you actually cared about the topics you claim you do maybe you'd stop trying to mislead people when discussing them and be interested in the truth and how to actually address the concerns you have, and surprisingly, that I actually share.

1. what you wrote didn't negate anything I posted..if anything you reinforced it. It doesn't that matter than its diminishing if the same group that was grossly affected by it 50 years ago is the same group grossly affected today.

2. you didn't address my post which was youre never going to get an accurate honest causality finding because NO ONE IS GOING ADMIT THEY MAKE DECISIONS BASED ON RACE/GENDER ETC.
Considering that this isn't a new condition you would think that after 50 years of study they would have had improved diversity training and psych evals and such yet the issue persists.

Pair that with crime stats to show the full picture:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf

Violent crimes that likely involve a weapon, such as murder, are being perpetrated by blacks at a higher rate than whites while being 1/6 of the total population comparative to whites. No wonder cops are killing black men at a higher percentage rate than whites. Blacks commit over 50% of the murders in this country while being 12% of the total population. The violent crime stats are comparatively higher so the police lethal response rates are comparatively higher.

And how do you explain native americans since they don't lead any negative stats in the way blacks do?

 

[chaseter]

That only equated to 13 Native Americans killed in 2015.

Twice as many people die from champagne corks yearly.

13 people is really, really small.

You can probably investigate each one. Here is one from this year where a woman charged at an officer with scissors: https://www.google.com/amp/www.dail...al-scissors-approached-him.html?client=safari

Here is another where police are called to a woman's home who had a handgun on her when the police came in. She was mentally disturbed: https://www.google.com/amp/www.pbs....an-fatally-shot-refusing-disarm?client=safari

 

[hellified]

That only equated to 13 Native Americans killed in 2015.

Twice as many people die from champagne corks yearly.

13 people is really, really small.

You can probably investigate each one. Here is one from this year where a woman charged at an officer with scissors: https://www.google.com/amp/www.dail...al-scissors-approached-him.html?client=safari

Here is another where police are called to a woman's home who had a handgun on her when the police came in. She was mentally disturbed: https://www.google.com/amp/www.pbs....an-fatally-shot-refusing-disarm?client=safari

13 police killings in a year isn't alot but when you talk about a group thats 1% of the population and how it got to be just 1% of the population any violent confrontation with law enforcement will bring a heightened response.

 

[ouroboros]

Lol...you say that as if murdering the dude should've even been an option.

Neither said nor implied that it should be an "option." It's a fact of life that if you resist a cop in any way, you may get shot.

Compared to that, standard punishment for contempt of court is two years, though it might make some difference as to whether there was more than one charge. I'm not giving the officer any sort of pass on his actions; I think he ought to have been convicted by now. But that doesn't mean I'm any less incredulous that the victim tried to get away, given the nature of his charges. Yeah, I guess you could get killed even in city or county jail, but the chances seem a lot less than the consequences of fleeing a police officer.

 

[Docker2.0]

Neither said nor implied that it should be an "option." It's a fact of life that if you resist a cop in any way, you may get shot.

Compared to that, standard punishment for contempt of court is two years, though it might make some difference as to whether there was more than one charge. I'm not giving the officer any sort of pass on his actions; I think he ought to have been convicted by now. But that doesn't mean I'm any less incredulous that the victim tried to get away, given the nature of his charges. Yeah, I guess you could get killed even in city or county jail, but the chances seem a lot less than the consequences of fleeing a police officer.

Wow! I can't believe you saw that video and really came to that conclusion and yes I read your message but still quoting your post.

 

[ouroboros]

I saw both the shooting video and the dashcam video, and the latter shows Scott running from his car after being warned not to get out of it.

If you don't believe that Scott and Slager struggled, that's fine: the shooting video is not clear on that point, though it also doesn't disprove the officer's story of a struggle. The act was wrong regardless of whether such a struggle took place, and Slager should have convicted for murder.

But you can't reasonably say that running from the cops is not "resisting arrest," and I'm pointing that if anyone does that, he takes his life in his hands. You can argue that it shouldn't be that way-- and there *may* have been a time when cops didn't shoot at fleeing suspects-- but that time has passed. I'm not any happier about it than anyone else, but it still begs the question: why would someone with comparatively minor charges choose to run? Isn't the risk of being killed under those circumstances much greater than anything likely to happen if he simply gives up?

 

[Kyle]

/\ In cases of a struggle cops should just use tranq guns or tazers, not kill people. Cops should ONLY bring out a gun if the other threatens to fire on them, has a different weapon like a bomb, or if they can't subdue them upon brandishing a knife. On no other circumstances should a cop ever pull out a gun or beat somebody into submission once subdued (which sadly cops have been caught on camera as doing).

 

[hellified]

 

[Docker2.0]

Perfect post! People have no idea what people go through until you walk a mile in their shoes.