Discussion: Racism - Part 2

[DeadPresident]

Lol at people who think it's as easy as making better choices. The ignorance.

Also, it's actually kind of racist to say that Blacks and Hispanics make poor choices (at higher rates than whites, obviously). Skin colour has no bearing on rationality. Yeesh.

How is it racist if it's statistically the case?

People seem to be conflating race with cultural norms a lot, and poverty has an influence on the norms a person adheres to.

Is it then racist to say Asian Americans make better choices? Because they quite clearly do.

 

[DeadPresident]

In layman's terms, white people view Asians as the "good ones." Except when they're more Middle Eastern or Muslim. Then they may as well be latino or black as far as threat level.

Any proof for this? Or are we just continuing with the racial stereotypes? How threatening do white people find Thomas Sowell or Larry Elder?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I'm a Hispanic American that grew up in an urban area. I can attest to bad choices being made. Even in my own family. I will even say that by my own estimation that there is a strand of thought in the inner city cultures of Hispanic and African Americans that the most "authentic" expression of said cultures is simply to be the opposite of what they think of as the monolithic "White" culture. This is not something only one side sees.


That said if one wants to say that the "bad decision" making is inherent in a, say, genetic way... You are on thin ice in any number of ways.

I think some know that but are either held in a straight jacket of "absolute logic" or are looking to push buttons. This critique encompasses a lot of the regulars in this thread mind you on both sides.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Any proof for this? Or are we just continuing with the racial stereotypes? How threatening do white people find Thomas Sowell or Larry Elder?

How threatening was Gates when he was arrested? A historian in his 50's? One must ask would such a thing have happened to Douglas Brinkley today.

 

[DeadPresident]

I'm a Hispanic American that grew up in an urban area. I can attest to bad choices being made. Even in my own family. I will even say that by my own estimation that there is a strand of thought in the inner city cultures of Hispanic and African Americans that the most "authentic" expression of said cultures is simply to be the opposite of what they think of as the monolithic "White" culture. This is not something only one side sees.


That said if one wants to say that the "bad decision" making is inherent in a, say, genetic way... You are on thin ice in any number of ways.

I think some know that but are either held in a straight jacket of "absolute logic" or are looking to push buttons. This critique encompasses a lot of the regulars in this thread mind you on both sides.

I'm picking up your hint, and I've never said anything regarding race is biologically motivated, which is why I expressly mentioned culture in a previous post - because that is the be all and end all of most people's decision-making approaches. I don't like the word "race" because it doesn't refer to the real basis of anyone's decision-making, which is culture. It's the reason why a lot of people can't critique someone like Elder without calling him an Uncle Tom or a traitor, because they can't accept someone that comes from their identity groups not sharing their cultural outlook or experience.

How threatening was Gates when he was arrested? A historian in his 50's? One must ask would such a thing have happened to Douglas Brinkley today.

I'm not a hundred percent sure of who you're referring to?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

How is it racist if it's statistically the case?

People seem to be conflating race with cultural norms a lot, and poverty has an influence on the norms a person adheres to.

Is it then racist to say Asian Americans make better choices? Because they quite clearly do.

2.6 out of 10 blacks live in poverty.

1.2 out of 10 Asians live in poverty.

You're telling me this difference justifies all the racism, stereotypes and bull**** ALL blacks have to deal with?

If you think statistics imply that all blacks need some deep reflection and deserve to be lectured about responsibility then you're looking at the wrong statistics.

 

[moviedoors]

You're telling me this difference justifies all the racism, stereotypes and bull**** ALL blacks have to deal with?

I'm just going to speak for DeadPresident and say, no, that is not what he is trying to tell you.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I can't express how toxic it is to treat most black people as if they are irresponsible and problematic when it's less than a quarter of the population.

Your condescending lectures are not helping.

When you get 20 million poor whites to oppose 10 million poor blacks and pretend the black race is the problem, it's much easier to cut social programs to give the super-rich tax cuts.

It's easier to privative public schools and prisons and cut healthcare.

 

[Marvolo]

Border agents stopped Muhammad Ali Jr.

On 7 February, border agents at the Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood international airport held the son of the boxing legend Muhammad Ali for two hours. According to his lawyer, they repeatedly asked him about his religion.

Just last June, the world mourned the passing of his father, perhaps the most famous Muslim on the planet, as an American hero. Eight months and a presidential election later, Muslim Americans, including those with notable fathers, can’t even return to their own country without problems.

But, they keep telling us, it’s not a Muslim ban.

Muhammad Ali Jr is not a visa-holder from Yemen, Iraq, Iran or Libya. He is not a refugee from Syria or Somalia or Sudan. He was born in Philadelphia. If they won’t let him into the USA, where is he supposed to go?

He is not the only citizen to report problems re-entering his country of birth. Last week, Faruk Abdullah, a consultant based in Union City, California, was flying home from Berlin, where he had been meeting clients. Abdullah – who was born in Columbus, Nebraska, has no other citizenship and describes himself as “annoyingly patriotic” – told me he suddenly found himself in front of three KLM ticket agents who were flummoxed as to why the system would allow him to fly from Berlin to Amsterdam but not from Amsterdam to San Francisco.

One of the agents told Abdullah she suspected US immigration had put a block on his travel, “probably because of your name”. Abdullah, who has flown overseas many times without incident, contacted his wife in California. She quickly assembled a team of lawyers. By the time Abdullah reached Amsterdam, he was able to board his flight to America. He still doesn’t know why he was flagged or then permitted to board.

The experience has left him nervous about future travels, which are necessary for his work.

“I just have this bad feeling that there is a deliberate attempt to undermine US citizens and US Muslims,” he said. “If I am a US citizen, I should totally be treated the exact same way as anyone else that is a US citizen.”

Immigration lawyers are also reporting that a number of Muslim US citizens and green card holders have had their Global Entry cards mysteriously revoked or applications suddenly denied, even after having been told they had been approved.

But it’s not a Muslim ban.

Trump’s executive order of 27 January barred entry of visa-holders from seven Muslim-majority countries and all refugees for at least 90 days. That order was horrible, unconscionable and quite probably illegal, according to a decision by the ninth circuit court of appeals. But the situation may now be even worse.

It’s one terrible thing to bar non-citizen Muslims entry. It’s another to treat Muslim citizens differently from other citizens by law and policy. Judging by my social media accounts, American Muslims, who are constitutionally guaranteed the right to equal protection under the law, are in constant communication regarding plans for overseas travel.

Earlier this month, Asifa Quraishi-Landes, a law professor at the University of Wisconsin, wrote a widely shared Facebook post that sought to alert US Muslims to their rights when traveling.

“Dear US Muslim citizens traveling overseas,” it began. “There are numerous reports that US Muslim citizens (and many non-Muslim persons of color) are being detained at secondary checkpoints through customs [and being asked] suspicious questions such as religious scholars they follow, social media groups, and political affiliations.

“As a citizen, you have an ABSOLUTE right to come back into the US. They cannot send you to another country.”

Emphasizing that one should “maintain etiquette, politeness, and composure” while engaging any border agent, Quraishi-Landes offered 10 necessary tips for US Muslim travelers:

1. Tell them you are an American citizen.

2. Tell them you’ve identified yourself.

3. Ask to speak to their supervisor.

4. Tell them you want a lawyer (have ACLU, CAIR, or your lawyer’s number with you)

5. Tell them you believe you are being religiously profiled. You MUST be allowed entry as an American citizen and you do not need to answer questions about how you pray or what you believe in.


6. Do not sign anything – NOTHING.

7. If they try to make you reboard an airplane, sit down on the ground and go limp if they try to lift you. Never hit or push.

8. Keep asking for a lawyer.

9. Make sure someone knows your complete itinerary. Make sure someone is waiting for you at your destination or knows to expect you.

10. If you wish, email your name and itinerary to: [email protected]. Attorney groups at your destination airport will be notified, just in case. Even if you aren’t a refugee, it will allow them to route you to an immigration attorney if you need one.

Quraishi-Landes has done us a valuable service by composing this list, which must be shared and absorbed. But it is beyond infuriating that such a list has to exist in the first place.



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/26/muhammad-ali-jr-trump-travel-ban-muslims-border-agents

Totally not a Muslim ban.


Trumpeteers are of course already calling it fake news. So let's sum up: according to the Trumpeteers, the Left, Liberals, media, world wide press, Dems, independents, part of the GOP, the Ali family and even quotes and statements directly from Trump's own mouth are involved in a grand world wide conspiracy to destroy Trump. Boy, that's one massive world wide cabal.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I'm just going to speak for DeadPresident and say, no, that is not what he is trying to tell you.

Then the issue is poverty and crime in general, not blacks in general. Correct?

 

[DeadPresident]

2.6 out of 10 blacks live in poverty.

1.2 out of 10 Asians live in poverty.

You're telling me this difference justifies all the racism, stereotypes and bull**** ALL blacks have to deal with?

If you think statistics imply that all blacks need some deep reflection and deserve to be lectured about responsibility then you're looking at the wrong statistics.

I'm not sure which statement specifically made you infer that any of what I'm saying is trying to justify racism, nothing justifies treating anybody a particular way prior to actually engaging with them, especially not arbitrary traits like race, or religion.

I'm not advocating any specific action for anyone, I'm simply responding to the claim that it's racist to say a particular group makes poor choices if those poor choices are more prevalent in a specific group. Is it racist if I point out that single-parent homes are more prevalent among particular identity groups? No.

I'm also not at all saying that every member of a particular identity group has any responsibility or obligation to do, believe, say, or experience anything if there's a statistical prevalence of a certain behavior within that identity group. And as I mentioned to Krypton, I don't believe race is "the problem", it's all about culture and behavioral norms and conventions, which occasionally overlap with race but are not tied to it.

I can't express how toxic it is to treat most black people as if they are irresponsible and problematic when it's less than a quarter of the population.

Your condescending lectures are not helping.

When you get 20 million poor whites to oppose 10 million poor blacks and pretend the black race is the problem, it's much easier to cut social programs to give the super-rich tax cuts.

Let me specify my approach, and this is a summation of a lot of engagements in this thread where people like hellified, Docker, SuperT, et al try and say that external circumstance is the biggest factor in a specific demographic's life. My belief is that causality is relatively easy to understand if people look at the relevant variables. If you don't finish high school you're more likely to become poor. If you have a child out of wed lock you're more likely to become poor. If you come from a single parent household, you're more likely to become poor. If poverty leads to cyclical entrenchment in specific behaviors (crime, lack of resources, addiction, etc) then the root of the problem is access to resources and economic mobility as well as making key decisions in one's life, not the demographics of the people most often impoverished.

If those specific actions are more prevalent among specific groups, I'm not telling any member of that group to introspect on behalf of that group, I'm saying the precise individuals who are engaged in those activities, or who make those decisions, need to take responsibility for those decisions. Them and them alone, every black American does not need to take responsibility or have any input whatsoever for any other black American's conduct, however, everyone needs to be accountable for behaviors within their own, individual control to at least some degree.

Now, do certain groups (black and Hispanic, for example, as the most commonly referred to groups in this thread) receive treatment that inhibits or influences their circumstance or ability to make good decisions? Sure, and I'm happy to admit that, and as I've mentioned countless times, I'm interested in discussing ways in which that kind of prejudice can be eliminated. However, I reject the notion that certain people, by virtue of some un-identifiable, unmeasurable conspiracy based solely on the color of their skin cannot escape difficult circumstances. I reject it firstly because it's unreasonable and has little proof, and I reject it secondly because that is in and of itself a racist belief - everyone has agency, using one's environment as a controlling force as an excuse only goes so far.

Then the issue is poverty and crime in general, not blacks in general. Correct?

Which is what I've been saying pretty much since I started posting in this thread, and every time that I tell most of the contributors here that poverty and class structure is the actual source of problems for specific communities they rebuke with "systemic racism" and "privilege", among many other trendy illiberal concepts.

You try telling them that and see if they'll accept it coming from someone who isn't a pesky white devil.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I'm not sure which statement specifically made you infer that any of what I'm saying is trying to justify racism, nothing justifies treating anybody a particular way prior to actually engaging with them, especially not arbitrary traits like race, or religion.

I'm not advocating any specific action for anyone, I'm simply responding to the claim that it's racist to say a particular group makes poor choices if those poor choices are more prevalent in a specific group. Is it racist if I point out that single-parent homes are more prevalent among particular identity groups? No.

I'm also not at all saying that every member of a particular identity group has any responsibility or obligation to do, believe, say, or experience anything if there's a statistical prevalence of a certain behavior within that identity group. And as I mentioned to Krypton, I don't believe race is "the problem", it's all about culture and behavioral norms and conventions, which occasionally overlap with race but are not tied to it.



Let me specify my approach, and this is a summation of a lot of engagements in this thread where people like hellified, Docker, SuperT, et al try and say that external circumstance is the biggest factor in a specific demographic's life. My belief is that causality is relatively easy to understand if people look at the relevant variables. If you don't finish high school you're more likely to become poor. If you have a child out of wed lock you're more likely to become poor. If you come from a single parent household, you're more likely to become poor. If poverty leads to cyclical entrenchment in specific behaviors (crime, lack of resources, addiction, etc) then the root of the problem is access to resources and economic mobility as well as making key decisions in one's life, not the demographics of the people most often impoverished.

If those specific actions are more prevalent among specific groups, I'm not telling any member of that group to introspect on behalf of that group, I'm saying the precise individuals who are engaged in those activities, or who make those decisions, need to take responsibility for those decisions. Them and them alone, every black American does not need to take responsibility or have any input whatsoever for any other black American's conduct, however, everyone needs to be accountable for behaviors within their own, individual control to at least some degree.

Now, do certain groups (black and Hispanic, for example, as the most commonly referred to groups in this thread) receive treatment that inhibits or influences their circumstance or ability to make good decisions? Sure, and I'm happy to admit that, and as I've mentioned countless times, I'm interested in discussing ways in which that kind of prejudice can be eliminated. However, I reject the notion that certain people, by virtue of some un-identifiable, unmeasurable conspiracy based solely on the color of their skin cannot escape difficult circumstances. I reject it firstly because it's unreasonable and has little proof, and I reject it secondly because that is in and of itself a racist belief - everyone has agency, using one's environment as a controlling force as an excuse only goes so far.



Which is what I've been saying pretty much since I started posting in this thread, and every time that I tell most of the contributors here that poverty and class structure is the actual source of problems for specific communities they rebuke with "systemic racism" and "privilege", among many other trendy illiberal concepts.

You try telling them that and see if they'll accept it coming from someone who isn't a pesky white devil.

Someone points out black poverty and crime and people get defensive and blame racism.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

I'm saying racism exists partially because of the "poverty/crime" generalizations.

When people frame black issues it's usually "you guys are disproportionately poor, unemployed and violent".

So what? Whites are disproportionately pedophiles.

People don't use that statistic to lecture whites because clearly most whites don't want to diddle kids.

Also I don't see the logic of bringing up poverty as a black problem over and over when there's twice as many poor whites. Screw percentages, white poverty, numerically, is more prevalent and a bigger problem but the media doesn't reflect that (why doesn't it?)

This impacts how the world sees blacks and how blacks view themselves.

The narrative needs to change.

We need to distinguish the responsible black majority and the irresponsible black minority.

 

[DeadPresident]

Someone points out black poverty and crime and people get defensive and blame racism.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

I'm saying racism exists partially because of the "poverty/crime" generalizations.

When people frame black issues it's usually "you guys are disproportionately poor, unemployed and violent".

So what? Whites are disproportionately pedophiles.

People don't use that statistic to lecture whites because clearly most whites don't want to diddle kids.

Actually, people do. "Crazy white boy lone wolf shooter", I see that rather frequently. Fact of that matter is clearly something in predominantly white American culture creates circumstances for whites to perpetrate acts like that at a disproportionate rate. The causal factors behind that need to be investigated, too.

Also I don't see the logic of bringing up poverty as a black problem over and over when there's twice as many poor whites. Screw percentages, white poverty, numerically, is more prevalent and a bigger problem but the media doesn't reflect that (why doesn't it?)

This impacts how the world sees blacks and how blacks view themselves.

The narrative needs to change.

We need to distinguish the responsible black majority and the irresponsible black minority.

Well, percentages or ratios do matter, that's how prevalence is determined. However, if this isn't the way you want to discuss the issue the first port of call should be all the supposed liberals who are concerned with black poverty and treatment in the USA, because they're the group that most enthusiastically diminishes and simplifies black America to exclusively the negative stereotypes. They don't care that most black Americans are living decent lives, all they see is discrepancy and difference, and for them that must mean explicit acts of racism and prejudice.

I'm not the one that made these rules up, talk to the other contributors in this thread about shifting the goal posts, because in their minds they want to own what a black person is allowed to experience and how they're allowed to frame it.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Another example of a toxic narrative is the welfare debate.

Most of it centers on black welfare queens.

But jobless blacks who are on welfare reflect how much of the US population?

Keep in mind, I said jobless. I'm not including the working poor.

Overall we're looking at 2 percent of the US population yet these people dominate the focus of the welfare debate.

Ultimately the vast majority of tax money goes toward the military, the elderly, and the working poor but those truths hurt the Republican narrative so they conjure up images of black pregnant women with no job and 5 baby daddies collecting food stamps while playing candy crish on a brand new smart phone.

 

[Kelly]

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Actually, people do. "Crazy white boy lone wolf shooter", I see that rather frequently. Fact of that matter is clearly something in predominantly white American culture creates circumstances for whites to perpetrate acts like that at a disproportionate rate. The causal factors behind that need to be investigated, too.



Well, percentages or ratios do matter, that's how prevalence is determined. However, if this isn't the way you want to discuss the issue the first port of call should be all the supposed liberals who are concerned with black poverty and treatment in the USA, because they're the group that most enthusiastically diminishes and simplifies black America to exclusively the negative stereotypes. They don't care that most black Americans are living decent lives, all they see is discrepancy and difference, and for them that must mean explicit acts of racism and prejudice.

I'm not the one that made these rules up, talk to the other contributors in this thread about shifting the goal posts, because in their minds they want to own what a black person is allowed to experience and how they're allowed to frame it.

Honestly I'm not concerned with lone shooters, Chicago homicides or even Muslim terrorist. I think it's a distraction and scape goat from the rich guys kicking millions off healthcare, privatizing public schools and prisons, destroying the EPA, cutting social programs, trampling the bill of rights, etc.

Pne set of problems impact thousands and the other MILLIONS.

If statistic matter then let's be honest about the real epidemic we face.

Also I'm not concerned with blaming racism for inner city problems. I'm more concerned with the engineering behind racism and how that racism is being used to fuel white nationalism, authoritarianism, neofascism, austerity, dangerous deregulation, etc on a local and global scale.

Call it hyperbole if you want but the far right is playing for keeps and they're not worried about Chicago, ISIS cells pr lone shooters.

All of these are pawns in a much, much bigger chess game.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

20% of the US on welfare.

40% of those ppl are black.

So 8 percent of the US population are blacks on welfare.

Now how many of these people work for a living?

This important statistic is completely missing.

How can you complain about a poor person getting assistance when they work?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The labor participation rate is pretty much equal across races.

Anyone know why that is?

https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_303.htm

 

[DeadPresident]

Honestly I'm not concerned with lone shooters, Chicago homicides or even Muslim terrorist. I think it's a distraction and scape goat from the rich guys kicking millions off healthcare, privatizing public schools and prisons, destroying the EPA, cutting social programs, trampling the bill of rights, etc.

Pne set of problems impact thousands and the other MILLIONS.

If statistic matter then let's be honest about the real epidemic we face.

Also I'm not concerned with blaming racism for inner city problems. I'm more concerned with the engineering behind racism and how that racism is being used to fuel white nationalism, authoritarianism, neofascism, austerity, dangerous deregulation, etc on a local and global scale.

Call it hyperbole if you want but the far right is playing for keeps and they're not worried about Chicago, ISIS cells pr lone shooters.

All of these are pawns in a much, much bigger chess game.

I don't disagree with any of this.

The labor participation rate is pretty much equal across races.

Anyone know why that is?

https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_303.htm

Because the USA is an intrinsically racist, white supremacist neofascist utopia?

 

[Kelly]

Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing, I just like statistics up there when people are talking statistics....that's all.

 

[TheCommissioner]

Because the USA is an intrinsically racist, white supremacist neofascist utopia?

you got people in the WH trying to get us there

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I don't disagree with any of this.



Because the USA is an intrinsically racist, white supremacist neofascist utopia?

No that's the far right goal.

The "blacks are lazy and jobless" stereotype is how they achieve that goal.

 

[DeadPresident]

you got people in the WH trying to get us there

You live in a democracy, gather the townsfolk and vote the fascists out. And slap some millennials around the face when you can because their little protest principle votes are what gave Cheetoh Jesus the White House.

No that's the far right goal.

The "blacks are lazy and jobless" stereotype is how they achieve that goal.

Among other things, yes. The problem is you've even got some black people that buy into parts of that narrative because they're peddled eternal victimhood by groups like BLM, instead of looking into actual stats on the topic.

 

[Kelly]

As long as Bannon is in the position that he is in, I will believe that HIS GOAL, is the goal stated up there as sarcasm. I have no doubt...this man has the ear of the President of the United States, and as long as t hat is the case, then that is the direction we will be going.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

BLM would be a thousand times more effective if they were called Justice For All and they fought for criminal justice reforms instead of just rallying against white police who shot black people.

Who made BLM the preeminent civil rights group of the 21 century anyway?