Discussion: Racism - Part 3

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People can inherit a lot more than money. Responsibility is about respond-ing to the Other. Charlottesville is just one way American history continues to haunt, and it's going to keep happening until it's reckoned with. Removing these racist statues is one step towards that, but of course many people see a responsibility to not being racist as anti-white hate or erasing their version of history.

Okay, but stop being vague then, give me actual things you would want to happen. Actions from individuals, public policies, community programs, etc. What would you do then, and for how long, how do you know when it's worked?

You've done exactly what I've outlined in my post to ouroboros - you keep things vague like attributing agency to "American history" like it's capable of some kind of action. Specify who should be doing what, "American history" can't be reckoned with, people can.

I'm perfectly fine with removing statues of historical figures that made bad decisions related to racism, what next, though? Does that mean every statue, person, idea, or law from that period is inherently flawed irrespective of what it dealt with?
 
Okay, but stop being vague then, give me actual things you would want to happen. Actions from individuals, public policies, community programs, etc. What would you do then, and for how long, how do you know when it's worked?

You've done exactly what I've outlined in my post to ouroboros - you keep things vague like attributing agency to "American history" like it's capable of some kind of action. Specify who should be doing what, "American history" can't be reckoned with, people can.

I'm perfectly fine with removing statues of historical figures that made bad decisions related to racism, what next, though? Does that mean every statue, person, idea, or law from that period is inherently flawed irrespective of what it dealt with?
What do you expect from a superhero message board? There are tons of people doing this work, thinking of radical alternatives and imagining different possibilities. I'm not going to do that work for you when it's all out there. Sounds like you're frustrated with the form of talking about these ideas on an internet entertainment message board, so maybe you should look elsewhere.

General ideas: continue with the removal of these statues while giving voices to minorities in historical accounts (text books, museums), fund sanctuary cities, fund/promote art that tells untold histories and new stories, take out uniformed cops from Pride, respect indigenous land claims and increase indigenous autonomy, attend to the anti-academia sentiment in the country, etc.
 
What do you expect from a superhero message board? There are tons of people doing this work, thinking of radical alternatives and imagining different possibilities. I'm not going to do that work for you when it's all out there. Sounds like you're frustrated with the form of talking about these ideas on an internet entertainment message board, so maybe you should look elsewhere.

Not really, if you're going to discuss something do it properly - if someone asks you for an opinion does your response differ whether you're in a coffee house or a lecture hall? I've seen ideas people have had and most, but not all, seem like they're emotionally satisfying gimmicks that will have zero effect on the issues they claim they want to address.

General ideas: continue with the removal of these statues while giving voices to minorities in historical accounts (text books, museums), fund sanctuary cities, fund art that tells untold histories and new stories, take out uniformed cops from Pride, respect indigenous land claims and increase indigenous autonomy, etc.

Okay I can see the logic in some of those. Sanctuary cities meaning what exactly though, segregation, effectively? That's one instance of something that seems effective on paper and likely just sows more separation within a society in practice. None of these address economic or political inequity, though, which I'm assuming are also important factors.
 
Not really, if you're going to discuss something do it properly - if someone asks you for an opinion does your response differ whether you're in a coffee house or a lecture hall? I've seen ideas people have had and most, but not all, seem like they're emotionally satisfying gimmicks that will have zero effect on the issues they claim they want to address.


Okay I can see the logic in some of those. Sanctuary cities meaning what exactly though, segregation, effectively? That's one instance of something that seems effective on paper and likely just sows more separation within a society in practice. None of these address economic or political inequity, though, which I'm assuming are also important factors.
Well if you want some policy papers or dissertations I'm sure I can send some your way. You just seem a lot angrier about people talking about anti-racism than you are at people talking about why they might like Batman v Superman on a superhero message board.

Sanctuary Cities as in policies that reduce the fear of deportation and families being ripped apart. These just scratch the surface, obviously. Less defence spending, more taxing of the rich, increased funding for well-fare, education, and arts. And of course actual consultation with the minorities being adversely affected. Economic and symbolic change work together.
 
Well if you want some policy papers or dissertations I'm sure I can send some your way. You just seem a lot angrier about people talking about anti-racism than you are at people talking about why they might like Batman v Superman

:funny: The "don't take it so seriously, why are you angry" thing is also a lazy copout to try and lend support to any point you try and make. I'm also a little perplexed by your examples, you're wondering why I take issues related to an important subject such as racism more seriously than I take people's opinions on something as trivial as movie preference? :huh:

Sanctuary Cities as in policies that reduce the fear of deportation and families being ripped apart. These just scratch the surface, obviously. Less defence spending, more taxing of the rich, increased funding for well-fare, education, and arts. And of course actual consultation with the minorities being adversely affected. Economic and symbolic change work together.

As in cities where immigration laws are ignored or…? I'm not sure I understand exactly, if that's what you're insinuating that seems dangerous - those cities would then just become densely populated to the point of absurdity by illegal immigrants, wouldn't they? It would be like Merkel's clarion call that anyone who makes it to Germany is guaranteed prosperity. Something like that only makes sense given infinite resources. As far as the bold is concerned I completely agree with those but I'm not sure I see a causal tie between those and racism specifically, I see those as good general practice that would benefit everyone?
 
:funny: The "don't take it so seriously, why are you angry" thing is also a lazy copout to try and lend support to any point you try and make. I'm also a little perplexed by your examples, you're wondering why I take issues related to an important subject such as racism more seriously than I take people's opinions on something as trivial as movie preference? :huh:

As in cities where immigration laws are ignored or…? I'm not sure I understand exactly, if that's what you're insinuating that seems dangerous - those cities would then just become densely populated to the point of absurdity by illegal immigrants, wouldn't they? It would be like Merkel's clarion call that anyone who makes it to Germany is guaranteed prosperity. Something like that only makes sense given infinite resources. As far as the bold is concerned I completely agree with those but I'm not sure I see a causal tie between those and racism specifically, I see those as good general practice that would benefit everyone?
You say "if you're going to discuss something, discuss it properly" allowing you to set the terms of "proper" and dismiss what you want as not proper, while focusing your policing on proper on comments people make about anti-racism rather than any other topic here. Look, I shouldn't come into this thread because I work in the areas you routinely attack and you demand the reproduction of what feels like never ending labour from me rather than reading outside the forum for answers to questions that really need books to answer properly. Nothing I can say on here, short of writing a dissertation, can answer your questions properly. And since I want to relax sometimes, and you always put the burden on others, you "win" these debates you have by default. Still I'm human and I get annoyed when "many many sides" becomes popular so I comment.

There are many sanctuary cities functioning in North America and Canada and they don't have the issues you're projecting. What they do have are safer citizens because people there can disclose their vulnerabilities without fear of deportation for themselves or a family member. Plus more people have access to health services and education, therefore quality of life and poverty goes down and crime decreases.
 
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Sanctuary cities are not exempt from immigration law. What they do, however, is essentially preventing the federal government from deputizing local police forces into ICE.

Now, what that does, is let illegal immigrants go to the local police without fear of being deported. Having a population that doesn't fear the local police has many, many benefits. Safer for the police and more help in fighting actual dangerous crimes.
 
You say "if you're going to discuss something, discuss it properly" allowing you to set the terms of "proper" and dismiss what you want as not proper, while focusing your policing on proper on comments people make about anti-racism rather than any other topic here. Look, I shouldn't come into this thread because I work in the areas you routinely attack, and then you demand the reproduction of what feels like never ending labour from me rather than reading outside the forum for answers to questions that really need books to answer properly. Nothing I can say on here, short of writing a dissertation, can answer your questions properly. And since I want to relax sometimes, and you always put the burden on others, you "win" these debates you have by default. Still I'm human and I get annoyed when "many many sides" becomes popular so I comment.

I didn't mean properly in the sense that I'm arrogating some kind of moral value, I meant properly like "taking it as seriously as it should be" - since your question was aimed at why I made a distinction between racism and someone liking/disliking Batman v Superman in terms of how "angry" I appear to be about those two subjects comparatively. I'm not here to win anything, I'm trying to have more nuanced discussions where people specify their viewpoints - but I concede to your point that exploring the topic in full detail isn't feasible here. I'm not trying to put burden of evidence on others, I'm putting the burden of explaining their points in sufficient detail, that's all. I don't see "Do something about the racists!" as a very good point (not saying you made that or a similar statement) and I think people need to be precise in what their beliefs or opinions are.

Unfortunately places like SHH, because not everyone is an academic, are places where people will have their views affirmed/challenged, so at least trying to do it "properly", i.e, accurately and with a constructive goal in mind, seems valuable. Especially if there are those with expertise or knowledge in particular areas that can provide valuable information for whoever is participating.

And for the record, I never said anything about "many sides", whatever I've said that people want to boil down to that is that neither side is making any progress to cathartically resolving any issues, but I don't equate the two.

There are many sanctuary cities functioning in North America and Canada and they don't have the issues you're projecting. What they do have are safer citizens because people there can disclose their vulnerabilities without fear of deportation for themselves or a family member.

Cool, then I misunderstood the implication and I acknowledge they have what seems to be an important function.

Sanctuary cities are not exempt from immigration law. What they do, however, is essentially preventing the federal government from deputizing local police forces into ICE.

Now, what that does, is let illegal immigrants go to the local police without fear of being deported. Having a population that doesn't fear the local police has many, many benefits. Safer for the police and more help in fighting actual dangerous crimes.

Thanks - I had the wrong idea then.
 
Fair enough DeadPresident :up:
 
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Picking out the relevant parts of Hellified's post:



On the contrary, I think most white people have been inundated with the matter of what Black People Think About the World. I don't deny that some people can shut it out, like the people you mention who have no problem with reporting black people for the Crime of Being Black. But it's one thing to say "Black People Think X," and another thing to say, "Black People are Correct About Everything." In the case of Zimmerman, I wouldn't have minded seeing him do some jail-time for manslaughter. But a lot of people, not exclusively blacks, wanted to treat Zimmerman's act as murder in the first degree, which it clearly was not. Why did the District Attorney overcharge Zimmerman? I can't think of any reason except to mollify the extremists by subscribing to their narrative-- and so Zimmerman did no time, because it was important to the extremists' narrative to call him a murderer.

Zimmerman did no time because florida's laws are screwed up. Manslaughter was added to the charge just before jury deliberation but unlike some states florida doesn't recognize it. So a defendant can try to reduce a murder charge to manslaughter by saying that he acted in self-defense even while conceding that he made a mistake. Alternatively, “imperfect self-defense” can offer prosecutors a chance at a guilty verdict when it doesn't seem a jury would convict on murder. Without imperfect self-defense then whats left is a crime scene where two people had a conflict and the only story any can go on is the person left alive.

Because florida doesn't have imperfect self-defense, the jury could only decide on the evidence in front of them..even tho MOST of them agree after the case that zimmerman was completely at fault in that incident.

Are you going back in history now? There were some official laws on the books, like laws against racial intermarriage, but by and large most of the strategies used to oppress black people were not laws, but customs. There was no law on the books that said, "Whites ought to lynch blacks every once in a while to keep them in line." It was a custom, however repugnant, that white people evolved "off the books." While you can argue that the lynched man doesn't care whether he was killed by law or by custom, it makes a difference to us now, or at least to anyone answering the oversimple claim that racism is systemic. On the contrary, the law's claim to be rational and non-partisan is the black American's only weapon against the chauvinism of custom.
It makes a difference to YOU and people like YOU...to the rest of us it makes not one micron of a difference.

Also look up pig laws or vagrancy laws and even jim crow laws and see just how much was actually codified.

But regardless thats why the word de facto exists.. not in law but in fact and when a sheriff goes by it or a judge or city elders/council and any official/elected body uses the custom over whats in the books it may as well BE the law.

On a related topic, I put it to everyone here: have you ever seen a black person prosecuted for having simply been in the presence of a white child? I've seen a lot of false crimes attributed to black people over the years, not least being the sin of being in the company of adult white women. But this idea from "black-ish," picturing black men as pedophiles, is an idea I don't really think is widespread, and I suspect the show's writers made it up out of whole cloth. However, if anyone has a specific example of a pedophile prosecution, feel free to roll it out.

Clearly that was made up to illustrate a point of why black men may feel or behave or react in a situation based on awareness of they would be perceived.

But if you want a real life situation that close to that...

In 1916, white men in Cedarbluff, Mississippi, lynched Jeff Brown because he accidentally bumped into a white girl while running to catch a train.

First youd have to be talking about some recent event like within the last 40 years because if a black man was accused of doing anything to a white female prior to that regardless of age he's be killed flat out (see above )

Second looking for a specific case of a false charge of pedophilia with black men is a bit ridiculous when the crux of the issue of that story as how a threat to white females is used as excuse to persecute/prosecute black men. There was a specific reason they chose a little white girl rather than a little white boy.

But you know this already.
 
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Which of those Africans were Americans again? Who forced the white Americans to buy them again? Who forced them to beat them, rape them and murder them? Who forced them to separate families established on American soil? Who forced them to believe in the idea of the superiority of the white man and using it to justify slavery? It is amazing how hard some people want to defend the one thing everyone should agree on.

It hasn't anything to do with force, but with complicity.
 
People can inherit a lot more than money. Responsibility is about respond-ing to the Other. Charlottesville is just one way American history continues to haunt, and it's going to keep happening until it's reckoned with. Removing these racist statues is one step towards that, but of course many people see a responsibility to not be racist as anti-white hate or erasing their version of history.

Your idea of responsibility is pretty one-sided, unless you can imagine a situation in which it would be OK to obliterate some icon of black history because it offended whites.

This would never happen, but if there had been far more widespread to the historical revisionism of SELMA than there was in reality, would it then be ethical to ban the sale of the film because whites perceived it to be racist?
 
Hellified said:

Zimmerman did no time because florida's laws are screwed up.

That's your opinion, not a fact. The U.S. allows certain laws to be influenced by community standards, and, though you may think that absolute uniformity-- say, every state having "imperfect self defense" laws-- would be a blessing, that's not necessarily the case, just because you think so.

Manslaughter was added to the charge just before jury deliberation but unlike some states florida doesn't recognize it.

If Florida law didn't recognize manslaughter, it couldn't have been added to the charges, and the jury couldn't have discussed it. Are you getting manslaughter confused with aggravated assault? It's true that the latter charge was not allowed by the trial judge. This decision might be based in racism, but we'll never know. Might the jury have judged Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter if they hadn't had to deal with the second-degree murder charge? We'll never know that either, but in my opinion the D.A. confused the matter by yielding to public opinion and trying to overcharge the defendant.

It makes a difference to YOU and people like YOU...to the rest of us it makes not one micron of a difference.

Really? The question of whether the law is applied fairly and universally to all citizens doesn't matter to you? OK, but I don't know how you're going to fight the supposedly systemic racism without resorting to the law.

But regardless thats why the word de facto exists.. not in law but in fact and when a sheriff goes by it or a judge or city elders/council and any official/elected body uses the custom over whats in the books it may as well BE the law.

But if a practice ISN'T on the books as the law of the land, then it can be fought through the actual system. But "you know this," even if you don't want to admit the distinctions between law and custom.

looking for a specific case of a false charge of pedophilia with black men is a bit ridiculous when the crux of the issue of that story as how a threat to white females is used as excuse to persecute/prosecute black men. There was a specific reason they chose a little white girl rather than a little white boy.

Well, since you agree with my earlier statement that the more common injunction is against black men mingling with white women, what was the point of using a little girl in the story at all? Personally, I think it was a heavy-handed warning to White America: "See, because you honkies have made it life so impossible for black men, the protagonist of the story couldn't even render aid to a lost little girl." They couldn't have shown a white woman in a comparable situation, so they tried to do a comedic version of a "Bigger Thomas" dilemma. My point in questioning the scenario is that because it doesn't seem true to life, it accomplishes nothing more than preaching to the converted.
 
Had Trayvon Martin been white, George Zimmerman would be in prison today, if not dead. Anyone who thinks you can shoot an unarmed 17 year old white kid in a gated community dead and go home the same night is insane.
 
Feels a little too what-iffy - considering the number of gun deaths in the USA per year there's probably been an incident exactly like that that just didn't catch media hype where an excuse similar to Zimmerman's worked, again. This concept that whites are completely protected and hallowed citizens is borderline mythical.
 
Feels a little too what-iffy - considering the number of gun deaths in the USA per year there's probably been an incident exactly like that that just didn't catch media hype where an excuse similar to Zimmerman's worked, again. This concept that whites are completely protected and hallowed citizens is borderline mythical.

You know it's true. American society places much greater value in the lives of white people. It's even worse in the South.

That Jordan Davis case was even worse. The South is one of the most racist places on the planet.
 
"And as you can see, this kid is white. Which means people actually give a ****."

A hilarious yet sadly poignant quote from 21 Jump Street.
 
Had Trayvon Martin been white, George Zimmerman would be in prison today, if not dead. Anyone who thinks you can shoot an unarmed 17 year old white kid in a gated community dead and go home the same night is insane.

Amen. It's crazy how people can you look you eye to eye and say that being white doesn't have it's privileges. I've seen it first hand, even in urban areas. And down south you can forget about it! I remember a big fight in college where 10 black kids were fighting 10 white kids: all the black kids were locked up for about 8 months. None of the white kids were and this was in Georgia.....yet there was no outcry, it was almost expected. I'm so glad I moved from that area years ago!
 
You know it's true. American society places much greater value in the lives of white people. It's even worse in the South.

That Jordan Davis case was even worse. The South is one of the most racist places on the planet.

Again, this feels like speculation based on your biases. If you can show me that there hasn't been an incident where a white kid was wrongfully killed and riots or a revenge murder didn't happen then you're exaggerating. I'm not saying there isn't a difference in how the incidents would be treated, but I doubt it's as bad as you're saying nationwide.
 
Again, this feels like speculation based on your biases. If you can show me that there hasn't been an incident where a white kid was wrongfully killed and riots or a revenge murder didn't happen then you're exaggerating. I'm not saying there isn't a difference in how the incidents would be treated, but I doubt it's as bad as you're saying nationwide.

Look at "Missing White Woman Syndrome" if you need evidence of the differential value we place on white lives vs those of people of color. It isn't merely speculative. It has been empirically tested and is a proven phenomenon. To say that our society does not place heightened value on white lives over those of others is, frankly, intellectually dishonest.
 
Look at "Missing White Woman Syndrome" if you need evidence of the differential value we place on white lives vs those of people of color. It isn't merely speculative. It has been empirically tested and is a proven phenomenon.

Sure, and that's a specific phenomenon related to a specific race and gender combination - are you claiming because the reaction to white women being treated differently when they're missing one can infer Thunder's statement is true?

To say that our society does not place heightened value on white lives over those of others is, frankly, intellectually dishonest.

I didn't say that, in fact, in the post you quoted I specifically said
I'm not saying there isn't a difference in how the incidents would be treated, but I doubt it's as bad as you're saying nationwide.

I responded to this specific aspect of his claim...

Had Trayvon Martin been white, George Zimmerman would be in prison today, if not dead. Anyone who thinks you can shoot an unarmed 17 year old white kid in a gated community dead and go home the same night is insane.

Effectively he's making it sound like any case where a white kid has been shot and killed has resulted in incarceration or death of the shooter. That seems to be a bold claim…There are something like 30,000 gun-related deaths in the USA every year, are people in this thread insinuating that a white kid hasn't been killed in a similar context without the above scenario unfolding? That seems intellectually dishonest.

Again, for the cheap seats - I'm not saying whites aren't treated differently - I simply took issue with the phrasing of the claim, like there's some kind of divine intervention that occurs whenever a white kid would die. Does being white afford people preferential treatment in legal contexts? Often it would, yeah, at a higher degree than other demographics. It sounds like Thunder's insinuating something like if you're a 17 year old unarmed white kid shot and killed in a gated community the White Privilege Squad gets in the choppers and hunts down your killer until they're either dead or in jail? Apparently. I have an aversion to hyperbole or generalizations when discussing nuanced topics where fine distinctions often matter, that's all.

I'm not saying there isn't a difference in how the incidents would be treated, but I doubt it's as bad as you're saying nationwide.
 
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I think you'd have a hard time finding a case where someone shoots an unarmed 17 year old white kid not committing a crime and them was allowed to go home the same night. Even the case people cite as the "black George Zimmerman" (a man named Roderick Scott) involves a black man shooting white kids on his property actively committing a crime, and he was taken into custody.
 
Look at "Missing White Woman Syndrome" if you need evidence of the differential value we place on white lives vs those of people of color. It isn't merely speculative. It has been empirically tested and is a proven phenomenon. To say that our society does not place heightened value on white lives over those of others is, frankly, intellectually dishonest.

That Australian woman who got shot in Minnesota would be a good, recent example.
 
Sure, and that's a specific phenomenon related to a specific race and gender combination - are you claiming because the reaction to white women being treated differently when they're missing one can infer Thunder's statement is true?



I didn't say that, in fact, in the post you quoted I specifically said

I responded to this specific aspect of his claim...



Effectively he's making it sound like any case where a white kid has been shot and killed has resulted in incarceration or death of the shooter. That seems to be a bold claim…There are something like 30,000 gun-related deaths in the USA every year, are people in this thread insinuating that a white kid hasn't been killed in a similar context without the above scenario unfolding? That seems intellectually dishonest.

Again, for the cheap seats - I'm not saying whites aren't treated differently - I simply took issue with the phrasing of the claim, like there's some kind of divine intervention that occurs whenever a white kid would die. Does being white afford people preferential treatment in legal contexts? Often it would, yeah, at a higher degree than other demographics. It sounds like Thunder's insinuating something like if you're a 17 year old unarmed white kid shot and killed in a gated community the White Privilege Squad gets in the choppers and hunts down your killer until they're either dead or in jail? Apparently. I have an aversion to hyperbole or generalizations when discussing nuanced topics where fine distinctions often matter, that's all.
Avoiding the unarmed and committing no crime part, makes it sound like you are being intellectually dishonest.
 
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