🇺🇸 Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 3

[Sithborg]

Perhaps you should be attacking the family members that told her that she was native american, rather than Warren herself.

 

[Aximili86]

Nobody's "attacking" anyone, stop acting like she's a victim here.

As for your point, sure, that's fair. There's also nothing we've seen so far to suggest said family members ever claimed it on official documents, either. Lizzie, notsomuch.

 

[Erzengel]

I honestly don't think it was intentionally malicious. I'm guessing Warren's grandparents or great grandparents probably spun a tale to Warren's mother about being Native American (More than the .01%). My dad use to tell me that he met my mom because they were both selling vegetables and ran their carts into each other. They actually met on a military base. But, if I used that in any public speaking or as part of my career, if the truth ever came out, I'd have egg on my face regardless.

 

[MaceB]

I honestly don't think it was intentionally malicious. I'm guessing Warren's grandparents or great grandparents probably spun a tale to Warren's mother about being Native American (More than the .01%). My dad use to tell me that he met my mom because they were both selling vegetables and ran their carts into each other. They actually met on a military base. But, if I used that in any public speaking or as part of my career, if the truth ever came out, I'd have egg on my face regardless.

You're right. She does have egg on her face - it's embarrassing. But it's really not a big deal. Elizabeth Warren went through the trouble of doing this cause she's running for President and she didn't want to turn out like Hillary where a small grievance suddenly turns into something way over the top. Turns out, she was right again... cause look at where we are right now. Arguing over an innocent mistake (at worst). Unless you want to claim that she was trying to pull one over on Harvard in order to.... I don't exactly know... what's the speculation on this again?

Luckily, 3 months will go by, and everyone will chill out on this. Cause it's not a big deal. Not even a little bit. I mean.. yeah.. it's embarrassing. But is it 6 bankruptcies, 3 marriages, got all his money from daddy, and likes to grab women's privates embarrassing? I don't think so. Let's try to have a little perspective here. Meanwhile, she's a great senator with great policy positions. So why can't I just take the red hat position and not care about this at all? Her policy beliefs are the same as mine, so what do I care? Does this say something about her that I'm not appreciating?

At worst, you can disagree with her actions, but not her intentions. And She's clarified her heritage now.. This is absolute nonsense.

As for your point, sure, that's fair. There's also nothing we've seen so far to suggest said family members ever claimed it on official documents, either. Lizzie, notsomuch.

Nothing to indicate that Warren claimed anything false on official documents either. A school register is not an official document. It's the equivalent of a yearbook. An official document is defined as: a document that states some contractual relationship or grants some right.

 

[chaseter]

Haha! So, basically "doesn't matter if the DNA test says she's not actually native American in any substantial sense. So long as you identify as it, you can claim it, even when you're less so biologically than the average American."

That is in essence what far left liberals and SJW’s want...you can be whatever you identify as...genetics, chromosomes, and DNA be damned. And now that logic is folding in on them with people like Rachel Dolezal and Warren.

 

[moviedoors]

Nobody's "attacking" anyone, stop acting like she's a victim here.

Guess you didn’t watch much Fox News yesterday evening than.

All Warren, no Saudi Arabia

 

[Donner]

That is in essence what far left liberals and SJW’s want...you can be whatever you identify as...genetics, chromosomes, and DNA be damned. And now that logic is folding in on them with people like Rachel Dolezal and Warren.

Genetic heritage and transgender identity are not the same thing at all, but nice of you to lump them in regardless. Yeesh.

 

[Erzengel]

I think he meant in the case of Dolezal as being "transrace".

 

[Schlosser85]

Genetic heritage and transgender identity are not the same thing at all, but nice of you to lump them in regardless. Yeesh.

He knows, it’s a characteristically disingenuous argument.

 

[moviedoors]

I think he meant in the case of Dolezal as being "transrace".

An idea that has garnered no real mainstream left-wing support.

 

[chaseter]

Genetic heritage and transgender identity are not the same thing at all, but nice of you to lump them in regardless. Yeesh.

Your sex is genetically determined. Your racial makeup is genetically determined. Both are expressed externally in physical characteristics. You can change the external physical characteristics with cosmetic surgery but you cannot change your genetic makeup. For the left to say that a genetic male can identify as a female through gender identity but a genetic Caucasian cannot identify as an African American because trans race isn’t real is hilarious. You applaud Caitlyn Jenner but damn Rachel Dolezal.

Dolezal used trans race identification to get a leg up on her career. So did Warren. So, another example of the hypocrisy of the left for sacrificing Dolezal to the angry cultural appropriation gods but defending Warren for her career moves. Gender and race are irrelevant in an equal society anyways. But, for some reason people still want labels and do not want true cultural equality.

When people say slippery slope...this is what you get. In 50 years if enough people do it, the DSM would recognize trans racial identities. Identifying is not genetic. It’s made up.

Be what you want I don’t care. Be a Caitlyn Jenner or a Rachel Dolezal. I don’t care. But, your line in the sand is disengenous and hypocritical. That is what I care about...hypocrisy and double standards.

An idea that has garnered no real mainstream left-wing support.

Which is hypocrisy and logic folding in on itself...

 

[moviedoors]

Sex =/= Gender

 

[Sithborg]

That is in essence what far left liberals and SJW’s want...you can be whatever you identify as...genetics, chromosomes, and DNA be damned. And now that logic is folding in on them with people like Rachel Dolezal and Warren.

Disgusting dude. You may want to read up on the issues outside of the Fox News/Breitbart/Family Research Council bubble.

 

[MaceB]

Nor does race = gender. Whether folks consider it liberal nonsense or not, I don't really care. A person's sexual orientation and gender identity are formed early on in life and goes beyond genetics. It's part psychological AND genetic... whether it's caused by nature or its caused by nurture, it doesn't matter cause it can't be changed. Gay conversion therapy doesn't work. Chaster - what I'm hearing is,, "suck it up... if you feel like killing yourself because you have gender dysphoria... get some therapy, seek help, and deal with it. You're a man, so you have to identify as a man" I say, identify your yourself with whatever gender you feel most comfortable with. I'd rather that then have someone off themselves. How I feel about transgender people is really immaterial... they exist whether I like it or not, so why not let them live a happy life in the way they think is best. Is it my life? Are they hurting me? What do I care? I completely reject the notion that transgender people are choosing to change gender identities to get "a leg up" in their career. There are plenty of psychiatrists - experts in their field - who would disagree as well. These people are not doing it for work... they're doing it because all their life, they've been unhappy and felt different. Can you imagine the torture that must be? Trust me... there's a lot easier ways to get a promotion than to endure years of hormones and folks like you who want to dismiss them.

Regarding Dolezal, I think that it's important to note that while racial identity is absolutely important, it doesn't transcend intellect and reason in the way that gender does. Whether you be white, black, brown, or yellow... we're all basically the same. The differences between races is taught and cultural. Kids don't even notice race until parents teach them to do so. The difference between genders is more than that... they are genetic and they are psychological. I don't believe that Dolezal was tormented as a child because she had this irrepressible feeling that she was different on the inside than how she was on the outside. Find me some credible literature that says otherwise, and I'll read it. I think she got in with a particular crowd, and made the decision that she wanted to look like the people she spent time with. Now, maybe I'm wrong about that... but if I am... then Dolezal is like one of the first in all of modern history to be that way. It's clearly not a large, societal issue like transgenderism is. Now.. if in 50 years, science were to tell us, "one's racial identity forms between 1-4, and if your racial identity formed outside of what your racial biology is.. then you are more likely to be depressed and kill yourself. Well, then we can talk. But that's not the way it appears now. And yeah.. if you must know, I don't really care about this either. Look - if you want to tan yourself and go through surgery to make yourself black, and if you want to call yourself black at your company or to friends, then whatever... go with God. Enjoy. No skin off my back. I don't think they are entitled to any of the benefits of a minority though, for obvious reasons. Dolezal joined the NAACP local chapter and acted as if she was an oppressed minority. That's clearly not the case, as she was white most of her life.

I thought that conservatives were for less government? So why are they trying to force us to act a certain way, even if it kills us? Seems cruel to me.

 

[Donner]

Your sex is genetically determined. Your racial makeup is genetically determined. Both are expressed externally in physical characteristics. You can change the external physical characteristics with cosmetic surgery but you cannot change your genetic makeup. For the left to say that a genetic male can identify as a female through gender identity but a genetic Caucasian cannot identify as an African American because trans race isn’t real is hilarious. You applaud Caitlyn Jenner but damn Rachel Dolezal.

The colour of your skin does not change your biological makeup. It doesn't affect how your brain operates. It is merely a physical trait, nothing more.The colour of your skin does not change with puberty, for example. It's on the same level as hair colour, eye colour, and so on.

Transgender identity goes well beyond external physical characteristics. Sex and gender are not the same thing (and you know this, so I don't know what you're arguing against. Unless you love to see yourself as some sort of superior contrarian, which you are not). We all also know that your sex organs consist of both internal and external characteristics and sometimes these don't match, along with the hormones that are released to create them. When it comes to sex and gender, your genetic makeup is fluid. It can change. It does change at certain ages. Your skin colour does not.

To equate the two just shows how ignorant you are of basic biology.

 

[MaceB]

The colour of your skin does not change your biological makeup. It doesn't affect how your brain operates. It is merely a physical trait, nothing more.The colour of your skin does not change with puberty, for example.

Transgender identity goes well beyond external physical characteristics. Sex and gender are not the same thing (and you know this, so I don't know what you're arguing against it. Unless you love to see yourself as some sort of superior contrarian, which you are not). We all also know that your sex organs consist of both internal and external characteristics and sometimes these don't match, along with the hormones that are released to create them. When it comes to sex and gender, your genetic makeup is fluid. It can change. It does change at certain ages. Your skin colour does not.

To equate the two just shows how ignorant you are of basic biology.

I was trying to say this, but you did a much better job. Thank you.

 

[Donner]

I was trying to say this, but you did a much better job. Thank you.

It won't matter, unfortunately. Chaseter's usual song and dance when it comes to these topics never changes. I reply because I don't like people who think they're smarter than they are.

 

[Schlosser85]

Your sex is genetically determined. Your racial makeup is genetically determined. Both are expressed externally in physical characteristics. You can change the external physical characteristics with cosmetic surgery but you cannot change your genetic makeup. For the left to say that a genetic male can identify as a female through gender identity but a genetic Caucasian cannot identify as an African American because trans race isn’t real is hilarious. You applaud Caitlyn Jenner but damn Rachel Dolezal.

Dolezal used trans race identification to get a leg up on her career. So did Warren. So, another example of the hypocrisy of the left for sacrificing Dolezal to the angry cultural appropriation gods but defending Warren for her career moves. Gender and race are irrelevant in an equal society anyways. But, for some reason people still want labels and do not want true cultural equality.

When people say slippery slope...this is what you get. In 50 years if enough people do it, the DSM would recognize trans racial identities. Identifying is not genetic. It’s .

Your sex is genetically determined. Your racial makeup is genetically determined. Both are expressed externally in physical characteristics. You can change the external physical characteristics with cosmetic surgery but you cannot change your genetic makeup. For the left to say that a genetic male can identify as a female through gender identity but a genetic Caucasian cannot identify as an African American because trans race isn’t real is hilarious. You applaud Caitlyn Jenner but damn Rachel Dolezal.

Dolezal used trans race identification to get a leg up on her career. So did Warren. So, another example of the hypocrisy of the left for sacrificing Dolezal to the angry cultural appropriation gods but defending Warren for her career moves. Gender and race are irrelevant in an equal society anyways. But, for some reason people still want labels and do not want true cultural equality.

When people say slippery slope...this is what you get. In 50 years if enough people do it, the DSM would recognize trans racial identities. Identifying is not genetic. It’s made up.

Be what you want I don’t care. Be a Caitlyn Jenner or a Rachel Dolezal. I don’t care. But, your line in the sand is disengenous and hypocritical. That is what I care about...hypocrisy and double standards.


Which is hypocrisy and logic folding in on itself...

Perhaps you should educate yourself on issues before you speak on them. Transgender identity and people calling themselves “transrace” are not comparable in their legitimacy.

Also, for you to say you care about hypocrisy and double standards is rather laughable.

 

[Aximili86]

I honestly don't think it was intentionally malicious. I'm guessing Warren's grandparents or great grandparents probably spun a tale to Warren's mother about being Native American (More than the .01%). My dad use to tell me that he met my mom because they were both selling vegetables and ran their carts into each other. They actually met on a military base. But, if I used that in any public speaking or as part of my career, if the truth ever came out, I'd have egg on my face regardless.

Yeah, there's no point in blaming her family for this, exaggerated as the little family tales may have been. Warren herself is a little different though: she's claimed her mom was "ostracized for being Cherokee", which according to the actual test isn't true as the estimated lineage given goes back at least 5 generations. Her mom wasn't Cherokee, not that anyone was aware or treated her as such.

I'm actually with you on that maybe Warren didn't know any better and was just making assumptions. Thing is, you retract that once you eventually find out the facts - she won't do that here. Even more to the point, if you're going to list being a minority on a job application, you make damn sure that's accurate before you do it in the first place. The onus is on her, not on the college doing a deep-dive to prove that she is - if they even tried such a thing, Warren could be screaming racism & indignity in the streets, even back in the 90s. The college isn't going to question it once that claim has been made.

As for the person making the Dolezal comparisons though, I think that's an overstep. It's a little different, in that Warren can at least claim an ancestor here - even if it was 5 generations back at least, and not even guaranteed to be in North America. Dolezal's full-on honkey and just pulled it out of her ass. They're both total weasels, but Dolezal's a step above with the bullsh*ttery, I wouldn't put Warren quite on that extreme level.

 

[Aximili86]

And Mace, you might want to stop with the "it was only a yearbook, nothing more significant" tack. That's plainly untrue, Harvard was listing her as a minority member of faculty. That's not their fault really, as far as they were aware she was, but where did that assertion come from? Warren. Lizzie clearly had no issue with being referred to as a person of color, over years. She could have corrected it, asked them to ease off on the language and temper the identity stuff.

Boston archives and the Politifact fact-checkers:



Federal documents indicate Harvard repeatedly reported Elizabeth Warren as Native American

The facts: Elizabeth Warren and her Native American ties



Harvard literally went out of their way to list her as an example of their diversity. The implication being "we've got a native American on faculty", not "this white lady has a tangential link to them going back 150 years or so".

The Harvard Crimson quoted a spokesman at the school citing her as a native American.

The Boston Globe and The Herald reported that the American Association of Law Schools listed Elizabeth as a "minority law teacher" from 1986 to 1994.

In addition she flat-out called herself "Cherokee" in some cookbook she contributed to in the 80s. You'll attempt to spin this too though.

Basically, the "she never even implied she was Cherokee, only cited some itty-bitty link way way back" stance is bull****. As far as Harvard was concerned, she rose to "minority", per Warren's claims. A law school association listed her as such for 8 years. She's contributed to a ****ing cookbook claiming she's Cherokee.

The play-down after-the-fact is spin, pure and simple.

 

[MaceB]

And Mace, you might want to stop with the "it was only a yearbook, nothing more significant" tack. That's plainly untrue, Harvard was listing her as a minority member of faculty. That's not their fault really, as far as they were aware she was, but where did that assertion come from? Warren. Lizzie clearly had no issue with being referred to as a person of color, over years. She could have corrected it, asked them to ease off on the language and temper the identity stuff.

I won't back off, because the University Register is basically the equivalent of a yearbook. It holds no weight... no intrinsic value. It's the equivalent of a company bio. Yeah.. Harvard wanted to pimp their diversity. So? What's the impact? Nothing. How did this harm anyone? It didn't.

Meanwhile, Elizabeth Warren is, in fact, part Native American.

You call what Im doing a "play down." I say you're playing this up, and nothing more. It's a non-issue. When Trump says or does racist things, you're more than happy to defend him and mitigate his actions. But Warren lists herself as Native American, and you go into a tizzy. Like, it's cool that Trump kidnaps kids without keeping track on how to give them back, cause Obama had a policy where he separated families for a for a few weeks. But when Elizabeth Warren claims Native American heritage on her company's bio... "what?!! Can you believe this women? Oh my God!"

You're free to care about anything you want, but I'm gonna focus on things that actually have an impact. The President saying that Mexico is cheating us or that we need a wall to separate is far more impactful than a women believing her mother and claiming it, in a way that hurts no one or anything. This is partisan nonsense.

 

[Aximili86]

I listed a bunch of instances up and above the university yearbook, including the Law School association and internal Harvard faculty listings and campus newspaper references, as according to Politifact and the local archives in Boston.

Each using either "minority" or "person of color" to describe her. That's her fault for claiming it, not theirs for taking it at face value.

Ignore as you will.

 

[chaseter]

The colour of your skin does not change your biological makeup. It doesn't affect how your brain operates. It is merely a physical trait, nothing more.The colour of your skin does not change with puberty, for example. It's on the same level as hair colour, eye colour, and so on.

Transgender identity goes well beyond external physical characteristics. Sex and gender are not the same thing (and you know this, so I don't know what you're arguing against. Unless you love to see yourself as some sort of superior contrarian, which you are not). We all also know that your sex organs consist of both internal and external characteristics and sometimes these don't match, along with the hormones that are released to create them. When it comes to sex and gender, your genetic makeup is fluid. It can change. It does change at certain ages. Your skin colour does not.

To equate the two just shows how ignorant you are of basic biology.

You are correct that hormones related to sex change your body chemistry. That can affect mental processes. I’m not arguing biology. I’m arguing hypocrisy.

Gender is made up by society. Race is made up by society. Correct? Yes. There are physical characteristics of both that correlate with their genetic makeup. Women have a vagina, African Americans have darker skin, men have a penis, Asians have darker hair, etc. That is the statistical norm so to speak. A hermophrodite would be a statistical deviation...an abnormality. Everything so far is fact. Their ultimate goal is to transition into the opposite gender through changing physical traits...hence transgender. They can’t change their genes. The argument you are trying to push comes into place when we discuss why. Why do trans people transition? I’m not arguing the why. That’s another debate.

I’m arguing the fact that the left view transgender as legitimate, but not transrace....when both are based on changing ones physical characteristics. A transgender man to woman can never have a baby. A transracial Caucasian to African American will never have more skin pigmentation. They can’t change their DNA. They can only emulate the goal through cosmetic changes. So tell me why being transgender is legitimate but being transrace is an affront to society. Tell me the factual difference. Explain it to me scientifically....because I see it as hypocrisy. You are choosing one over the other because you feel one is legitimate and one isn’t...when they both deal with a person’s mental struggle to associate with an identity and then changing themselves physically to match what they see in society.

 

[MaceB]

I’m arguing the fact that the left view transgender as legitimate, but not transrace....when both are based on changing ones physical characteristics.

Gender is more than physical characteristics.. Skin complexion is just skin complexion, but gender is much more than that.

 

[chaseter]

Perhaps you should educate yourself on issues before you speak on them. Transgender identity and people calling themselves “transrace” are not comparable in their legitimacy.

Also, for you to say you care about hypocrisy and double standards is rather laughable.

Explain the difference between the two.