🇺🇸 Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 3

[MaceB]

An interesting point of all this is that President Trump WAS able box her in. But Senator Warren can't do the same to Putin's Pet. The liberal democrats are more than willing to eat their own, whether it be Senator Warren, James Gunn or Al Franken, for reasons that would be quickly dismissed if applied to Trump. But 90% of Republicans are going to stick with our garbage president even if he does go through with his threat of putting a bullet in someone's skull in the middle of Times Square. It's great that the Dems are clinging to some notion of morality, but it makes it tough to win an election against a party and a president that have none.

100% agreed.

 

[MaceB]

No, not part minority. Minority. Just like Warren did.

I don't think that Warren ever claimed that she was full Native American.

"Asked whether she considers herself to be a minority, the Democrat said, “Native American is part of my family. It’s an important part of my heritage.”

 

[Erzengel]

... because The President of the United States repeatedly mocked her and called her a liar on this issue? Why not record? I'd be worried that the peace of paper would be enough. I'd document this one as much as I could. When the President calls you a liar... you dot your I's and cross your T's.

And again, in her mind it was a gotcha moment. Your post is essentially why she did it.

 

[Handsome Rob]

I don't think that Warren ever claimed that she was full Native American.

She listed herself as a minority. How many times do I have to say it? Why can't I do the same, especially when I'm more minority than she is?

Not Native American. Not part Native American. Minority.

 

[MaceB]

And again, in her mind it was a gotcha moment. Your post is essentially why she did it.

I don't think a gotcha moment is something you can be forced into.

 

[MaceB]

She listed herself as a minority. How many times do I have to say it? Why can't I do the same, especially when I'm more minority than she is?

Not Native American. Not part Native American. Minority.

Look bud, if you want to claim "African American" on your school yearbook, that's up to you. Elizabeth Warren has been painstakingly clear that she's only part Native American. People chastised her this whole time, and it turns out that she was telling the truth.

 

[Erzengel]

I don't think a gotcha moment is something you can be forced into.

Sure you can.

She only did the DNA test because of the questions and mocking by Trump and others.

 

[MaceB]

Sure you can.

She only did the DNA test because of the questions and mocking by Trump and others.

How does the fact that she only took it for political reasons make it a "gotcha?" She was defending herself forcefully from people who were calling her and her family liars.

 

[Erzengel]

How does the fact that she only took it for political reasons make it a "gotcha?"

Because she wanted to stick it to Trump and anyone else who mocked her.

She was defending herself forcefully from people who were calling her and her family liars.

By coming out that she's less than <1% NA. She can't even be accepted by NA, because she doesn't have the proper lineage evidence as they don't acknowledge DNA testing. The Cherokee Nation dismissed her claim and people appear to be mocking this even more. She should have taken the test and seen the <1% and then noped right out of escalating this even further.

 

[MaceB]

By coming out that she's less than <1% NA. She can't even be accepted by NA, because she doesn't have the proper lineage evidence as they don't acknowledge DNA testing. The Cherokee Nation dismissed her claim and people appear to be mocking this even more. She should have taken the test and seen the <1% and then noped right out of escalating this even further.

Yeah... she came out as less than 1% Native American. She never argued anything different. She never agued that she was full NA, or half NA, or even a quarter NA. She never stated she was a part of any tribe affiliation. She stated that her mother was part Cherokee and as such, Elizabeth's mother had to elope with Elizabeth's father. She simply said that she was part Native American, because that's what she's been told all her life.
And let's be clear - she never claimed Native American identity. To claim an affiliation is to request the privileges of that group. She never did that. She never never marked a box on an application... she never claimed any of the benefits of being Native American. She simply stated that she was part Native American, which she is... genetically.

 

[MaceB]

Because she wanted to stick it to Trump and anyone else who mocked her.


By coming out that she's less than <1% NA. She can't even be accepted by NA, because she doesn't have the proper lineage evidence as they don't acknowledge DNA testing. The Cherokee Nation dismissed her claim and people appear to be mocking this even more. She should have taken the test and seen the <1% and then noped right out of escalating this even further.

Suit yourself... getting too semantic for my tastes at this point. She wanted to rebut the claim that her mother was a liar, and it was important enough to her to record the evidence and to share it with the world. Nothing wrong with that. We really should be mad at Trump for apparently thinking he can tell people who they are and where they come from without evidence...twice. And both times, wrong.

She never claimed to be part of a tribe. She claimed that she has Native American DNA, which she does.

 

[Erzengel]

Personally, I think it's the inference that I find funny.

"As a kid, I never asked my mom for documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage. What kid would? But I knew my father's family didn't like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware, so my parents had to elope," she said.

It's inferred that it's a significant amount if her father's family disapproved of her parents union or when she listed herself as a minority professor at Cambridge. If anyone says, oh yeah, I'm part this race or that race, you give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm 1/4 white, but most people are still surprised when I say that.

It's just a common thing that someone who is white to claim that they are descended from a Native American Princess or that there great, great grandfather is Native American. With the advent of DNA testing, you get a lot of people who realize that they aren't. I always felt that people did that to make themselves feel more special. In this case, less than <1% to me is funny especially when she states how important it was in her family and heritage.

 

[MaceB]

Again, it's not up to you to determine what is enough Native American heritage to be significant. You aren't the genealogy police. It is important to her family. She was taught this from a young age. I don't see the problem.

 

[Erzengel]

My uncle does a lot of work with indigenous people and includes my cousin into their culture.

It'd be one thing if we saw Warren and her mother at gatherings or anything of cultural significance. It appears it's just "being Native American" as a moniker was the only significant thing she embraced.

 

[Aximili86]

Mace, while there's no proof/admission by the university that the got the gig due to being a minority, she only first brought up the "native American" stuff when going for that job. In her late 30s. You'd figure if you'd grown up hearing stories from Nana Cherokee or whatever and identifying with the people, you don't just first mention it that late in life, and while going for a job that has a whole implied "a minority would be a plus here" factor.

The university itself had referred to her as a minority, and even "a woman of color". Even if you give the benefit of the doubt to her in this test and assume it's the best-case-scenario 1/64th native and not the 1/1000th, it's still a ridiculous claim. Like sure, she probably did just claim to have "native American heritage" and not some full-on claim to being part of the tribe, absolutely. But that doesn't really make it much better.

Plenty of white people out there are going to be 1/64th black for example, some African great-great-grandfather down the line. Surely if that person stakes a claim to being black, they should get laughed out of the room. Especially if they've for all intents & purposes grown up "white" like Warren, seen and treated as such, not living the black experience (or in her case a native American one).

Look, the Cherokee groups themselves are pissed, there are articles & statements all over the place from them today. That should be enough, that what she did was wrong, or at least not exactly honest. She's not quite Dolezal, just pulling it entirely out of her ass, but you simply don't claim you're native American enough for it to matter if you're such a tiny percentage of it as she is, and have spent your entire life being treated as a white person.

Everyone's mixed to an extent, that's the whole nature of humanity. Everyone has a little of plenty of various stuff. Not everyone gets to just claim being something because they feel a certain affinity for it and might have an infinitesimal amount of blood lineage there. This isn't some one-foot-equally-in-two-worlds thing like with Obama, a genuine dual experience. Warren's got less native American blood in her than the average Joe-Honkey American according to that figure today, and she only claimed it when she was like 38 or something and going for a job they specifically mentioned minority status would be a plus for. That doesn't mean it's as cut-and-dry as "she only got the job due to this", I don't believe that, but she sure-as-**** deceived on the point.

And basically next time Trump throws a "POCAHONTAS!" her way, now it's honestly probably just going to carry more weight. This backfired, hard. Scientifically, if she's considered native American, half of friggin' Congress is too. They're not going to claim it, because it's absolutely unjustified.

There's a Russian Jew in my family like 4 generations back. "I personally feel the pain of persecuted people in Tsarist Russia! That should be enough for you people!" It's insane.

 

[MaceB]

My uncle does a lot of work with indigenous people and includes my cousin into their culture.

It'd be one thing if we saw Warren and her mother at gatherings or anything of cultural significance. It appears it's just "being Native American" as a moniker was the only significant thing she embraced.

Again, she never claimed to be a part of any tribe. Nor did she bring it up for any advantage.

 

[Erzengel]

It's one thing if you're saying you're Native American but she said...

But I knew my father's family didn't like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware,

Cherokee is a tribe.

 

[MaceB]

It's one thing if you're saying you're Native American but she said...
Cherokee is a tribe.

Dude, she never claimed that she was part Cherokee. She never applied to be in the tribe. She never even brought this up. It was her opponent. And you want to throw her name through the mud, because she believed her mother and called herself Native American in the school's staff directory? Are you serious? She didn't get any benefits. She never sought any benefits. She never tried to put this in the public sphere. What exactly is the harm here? How is this disqualifying in any way? Is this worse than hiding your tax forms? Nope. Does this demonstrate what kind of politician she is? Nope. Does it really say anything about her as a person? ...Not really... except that she trusted her mother and considered herself part Native American.... which she is. Talking about witch hunts...let's destroy this women's reputation cause she made a mistake... well not really a mistake... more like a temporary error in judgement, even though she was technically right all along. Goodness gracious.

 

[Erzengel]

Dude, she never claimed that she was part Cherokee. She never applied to be in the tribe. She never even brought this up. It was her opponent. And you want to throw her name through the mud, because she believed her mother and called herself Native American in the school's staff directory? Are you serious? She didn't get any benefits. She never sought any benefits. She never tried to put this in the public sphere. What exactly is the harm here? How is this disqualifying in any way? Is this worse than hiding your tax forms? Nope. Does this demonstrate what kind of politician she is? Nope. Does it really say anything about her as a person? ...Not really... except that she trusted her mother and considered herself part Native American.... which she is. Talking about witch hunts...let's destroy this women's reputation cause she made a mistake... well not really a mistake... more like a temporary error in judgement, even though she was technically right all along. Goodness gracious.

This was her direct quote.....

https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/29/politics/elizabeth-warren-native-american-pocahontas/index.html

"Professor Warren claimed that she was a Native American, a person of color," he said during a debate. "And as you can see, she's not."

Warren shot back that she had not gained any "advantage" -- a claim that has proven impossible to fact check -- and in a subsequent ad again cited family lore.

"As a kid, I never asked my mom for documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage. What kid would? But I knew my father's family didn't like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware, so my parents had to elope," she said.

Their quarrel took a nasty turn around this time, when Brown's staffers were filmed doing "war whoops" and "tomahawk chops" during an outdoor rally.

 

[MaceB]

This was her direct quote.....

https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/29/politics/elizabeth-warren-native-american-pocahontas/index.html

Yeah! Her descendants are part Cherokee, that's true, but she never claimed tribal membership herself. She's speaking of her family in that quote, not her. You say you know about this stuff? Then you should know that just because your descendants were in a tribe, doesn't mean that you automatically are. Claiming Native American heritage (which she has!!) is different than claiming tribal membership (which she never did).

 

[Erzengel]

Dude, she never claimed that she was part Cherokee.

Yeah! Her descendants are part Cherokee, that's true, but she never claimed tribal membership herself.

If your only response is, she never claimed tribal membership, I think we're done here.

 

[Aximili86]

She never did claim tribal membership, no. But she conned a university into labelling her a "person of color" on campus.

It's nuts. Don't blame the university, of course, they're not going to question someone's authenticity presenting themselves that way. But just because she likely didn't get the job solely on affirmative action grounds (she's clearly a bright & qualified person), that doesn't excuse the subterfuge. She knew damn well she wasn't significantly Cherokee overall even if she wasn't aware of the actual percentages.

This is as much about her actual life experience as it is the DNA test. You're not going to seriously try to tell us Warren grew up with the native American experience, trials and tribulations left right and center. Look at her family, her brothers in that interview. Any layman passes these people in the street, they're treating them as white, that's always going to have been the case. This cheapens anyone actually laying claim to this on a job application legitimately, you know this.

 

[MaceB]

It's true. She never claimed to be a member of a tribe. As you know... such things have to be asked for and given. She never asked for that, and she never claimed she did. Back off if you want... I'm just telling you the way it is.

 

[MaceB]

She didn't get the job AT ALL based on affirmative action. It's not up to you to decide how much lineage is enough for her to claim it on a school yearbook.

Warren never claimed to grow up with the Native American experience. She claimed to be part Native American, which she is.

It only cheapens it if you try to put words in her mouth.

 

[Aximili86]

But so what? She told them she's native American, they treated her as such to the extent they referred to herself as a "person of color" when introducing her to an audience. That's not their fault, they're going to call her whatever she wants to be called, any questioning of it's not going to go down well.

But you're not going to seriously put it out there that you think Warren's actually a "person of color" in the same way we refer to people as "persons of color". It's a legitimate thing to take issue with - if that's the threshold, half the old white guys in Congress and the Senate are "people of color".

Only, of course they're ****ing not. A little infinetesimal ancestry link here and there does not a non-European make. Everyone's African if you take it back far enough, but anyone non-African laying claim to that is a goddamn moron.