🇺🇸 Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 3

[MaceB]

[QUOTE="DarthSkywalker, post: 37531171, member: 18350"
Where the Left has control, the chances of this flying are far, far, far less. Especially with Trump around.[/QUOTE]


No disagreement there. I guess I think sometimes too much so, is what I'm saying. I don't know how this touching is unforgivable. I don't get it. I don't even appreciate what the accusation really is. That he's weird? Okay... he's weird. Is it politically bad for Biden though? yes.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

"Social norms have begun to change. They've shifted. And the bounds of personal space have been reset. And I get it. I get it. I hear what they're saying. I understand it. And I'll be much more mindful. That's not my responsibility."

That's not my responsibility?

Also, notice he didn't apologize. It is such an obvious non-apology, apology. Especially when he makes it clear he "intended" to do nothing wrong, as if separating himself from his action. I mean, you do realize there is actual footage of a lot of this stuff?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No disagreement there. I guess I think sometimes too much so, is what I'm saying. I don't know how this touching is unforgivable. I don't get it. I don't even appreciate what the accusation really is. That he's weird? Okay... he's weird. Is it politically bad for Biden though? yes.

This is an indication that you have not read or listened to what these women have been saying. Because they have made it clear, along with women reporting on it. It is a question of consent, and a man who is willing to not even consider the thoughts of a woman or how she would feel in such a situation. The ****er smelled a woman's hair and kissed the back of her head without permission. Who the hell does that to someone they aren't in some form of a relationship with? Who goes around pressing their foreheads on people they don't know?

 

[MaceB]

I agree that he should just be like, "yes - I directly apologize to Ms. whoever and Ms. whoever." Like I've said, I'm very critical of how he's responded. But to treat this like this is disqualifying of the office of President is, to me, a bit of a stretch. This is a mistake I can forgive. Now... if they accusers were coming up and like, "he grabbed my butt... he propositioned me.... he jammed his tongue down my throat... he fired me for not wanting to get too close..." then that is a whole other kit and caboodle. This issue? Personally I don't see it.

 

[MaceB]

This is an indication that you have not read or listened to what these women have been saying. Because they have made it clear, along with women reporting on it. It is a question of consent, and a man who is willing to not even consider the thoughts of a woman or how she would feel in such a situation. The ****er smelled a woman's hair and kissed the back of her head without permission. Who the hell does that to someone they aren't in some form of a relationship with? Who goes around pressing their foreheads on people they don't know?

It really doesn't seem that uncommon to me. Some people are very touchy-feely. The folks who give you 15 second hugs, whispering into your ear. The folks who get right up to you and wipe away a tear when you're crying. The folks who put foreheads together, and their hands on someone's heart. Some people are just not afraid of that kind of physical contact. And when I experience it... I find it refreshing, personally. I can see why it makes some people uncomfortable, but as long as it's loving and not sexual.. I like it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I agree that he should just be like, "yes - I directly apologize to Ms. whoever and Ms. whoever." Like I've said, I'm very critical of how he's responded. But to treat this like this is disqualifying of the office of President is, to me, a bit of a stretch. This is a mistake I can forgive. Now... if they accusers were coming up and like, "he grabbed my butt... he propositioned me.... he jammed his tongue down my throat... he fired me for not wanting to get too close..." then that is a whole other kit and caboodle. This issue? Personally I don't see it.

Yes, as a man, you can forgive him. And that is something I have noticed in the reporting of this story. Men seemingly not understanding the general guttural reaction of many women have to this, being far too familiar with this kind of ****.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It really doesn't seem that uncommon to me. Some people are very touchy-feely. The folks who give you 15 second hugs, whispering into your ear. The folks who get right up to you and wipe away a tear when you're crying. The folks who put foreheads together, and their hands on someone's heart. Some people are just not afraid of that kind of physical contact. And when I experience it... I find it refreshing, personally. I can see why it makes some people uncomfortable, but as long as it's loving and not sexual.. I like it.

Read what you just wrote and remember that this is the MeToo era. You just defend grabbing a woman's chest (their hands on someone's heart) as touchy-feely. Which in and of itself is a downplaying of things men have been doing to women for how long?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

President Trump Joked About Biden's Conduct With Women. Then Biden Did, Too

Joe Biden jokes about inappropriate touching complaints – live

Why won't Biden apologize? - CNNPolitics

 

[MaceB]

Read what you just wrote and remember that this is the MeToo era. You just defend grabbing a woman's chest (their hands on someone's heart) as touchy-feely. Which in and of itself is a downplaying of things men have been doing to women for how long?

Yep, that's what I did alright. Totally just defended a man's right to grab a woman's chest. Sure... sure... You obviously want to be outraged about this. It's really clear what I was saying and what I was talking about. This is where the term PC police comes from... angry liberals who want to be outraged by stuff... and then go on angry crusades for social justice. Doesn't help much, IMO. I think it's a big reason why so many conservatives look down on liberals. There's plenty of real things to be outraged about. We don't need to pretend that putting one's hand over a woman's heart is the same as grabbing her tit. There are shades of grey here. It's not a sin to try and bring that up.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yep, that's what I did alright. Totally just defended a man's right to grab a woman's chest. Sure... sure... You obviously want to be outraged about this. It's really clear what I was saying and what I was talking about. This is where the term PC police comes from... angry liberals who want to be outraged by stuff... and then go on angry crusades for social justice. Doesn't help much, IMO. I think it's a big reason why so many conservatives look down on liberals. There's plenty of real things to be outraged about. We don't need to pretend that putting one's hand over a woman's heart is the same as grabbing her tit. There are shades of grey here. It's not a sin to try and bring that up.

What does placing one hands on the heart of someone, in this case a woman, mean exactly? Do her breast just disappear? The idea that you can just touch people without their permission is old, ****ty logic. It belongs where it belongs. Same with other general ideas placing women and minorities in these ****ty boxes, created to devalue them.

The reason you run to "PC" in the face of what these women themselves is saying, is there is no real logic to defending this. So you have to place the blame on those pointing out the issue. Deflection.

I don't care if conservatives look down at liberals because they worship Trump, don't care about the damage we are doing to the planet, seem fine with people dying because they have no healthcare and constantly call for a time where racism and sexism were fine. If the worst thing they can point out is overzealous on correcting a long standing wrong, then I am a-ok. It's far better then excusing ****ty male behavior as "touchy-feely".

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

I think Biden is losing momentum now, and yes, he is absolutely in the wrong here. I don't think he has even announced his campaign offically yet, and I'm not sure he will, which would make Bernie, for all intents and purposes, the Democratic frontrunner.

 

[MaceB]

What does placing one hands on the heart of someone, in this case a woman, mean exactly? Do her breast just disappear? The idea that you can just touch people without their permission is old, ****ty logic. It belongs where it belongs. Same with other general ideas placing women and minorities in these ****ty boxes, created to devalue them.

That you love them. That you feel for them. That you're there for them. It's a sign of affection.

The reason you run to "PC" in the face of what these women themselves is saying, is there is no real logic to defending this. So you have to place the blame on those pointing out the issue. Deflection.

Honestly, they're saying exactly what I'm saying. That his transgressions weren't sexual, but uncomfortable, and Biden should be more cautious of that in the future. Biden has admitted as such. I'm just not interested in milking the issue til it comes tantamount to popping a feel.

I don't care if conservatives look down at liberals because they worship Trump, don't care about the damage we are doing to the planet, seem fine with people dying because they have no healthcare and constantly call for a time where racism and sexism were fine. If the worst thing they can point out is overzealous on correcting a long standing wrong, then I am a-ok. It's far better then excusing ****ty male behavior as "touchy-feely".

I don't think that human touch is long standing wrong on it's face. It depends on the situation, the context, and the intent. And I'm just saying, I think you do more harm by elevating these molehills than you do good. I think you turn off more possible converts than you do punish people. There's nothing wrong with appreciating that there's a difference between putting your hand on someone's heart and grabbing their chest. That's just common sense, and I'm not going to be bullied into prohibiting all human contact by folks who refuse to see the difference.

 

[Donner]

He was smelling the hair and kissing the cheeks of young pre teen girls that he didn't know. That's ****ing creepy and trying to explain it away by saying that human touch is good for you is disgusting.

I'm getting so sick of this. He didn't just touch adult women but also adolescent girls. Like JFC that's not okay.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That you love them. That you feel for them. That you're there for them. It's a sign of affection.



Honestly, they're saying exactly what I'm saying. That his transgressions weren't sexual, but uncomfortable, and Biden should be more cautious of that in the future. Biden has admitted as such. I'm just not interested in milking the issue til it comes tantamount to popping a feel.



I don't think that human touch is long standing wrong on it's face. It depends on the situation, the context, and the intent. And I'm just saying, I think you do more harm by elevating these molehills than you do good. I think you turn off more possible converts than you do punish people. There's nothing wrong with appreciating that there's a difference between putting your hand on someone's heart and grabbing their chest. That's just common sense, and I'm not going to be bullied into prohibiting all human contact by folks who refuse to see the difference.

Wow. Human touch. a sign of affection... okay. Yeah, yeah. This is gross.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

He was smelling the hair and kissing the cheeks of young pre teen girls that he didn't know. That's ****ing creepy and trying to explain it away by saying that human touch is good for you is disgusting.

I'm getting so sick of this. He didn't just touch adult women but also adolescent girls. Like JFC that's not okay.

I know that it is completely fine to grab people you are unfamiliar with and show them my love and affection by touching there where I feel like. This is includes "placing your hand on their heart".

It sounds like some 1950s logic for sexual harassment. And when women tell men, "that's not okay" the are being uptight and cold.

 

[MaceB]

Do you have any reason to believe he was doing this for sexual gratification. Isn't it possible that he was raised to treat women with affection, and he's just trying to tell them he cares about them? I mean... what are you suggesting? That this older guy is going around, putting his hands on younger girls shoulders, whispering close as he smells their hair, and holding their arms cause he's getting off on it? I just haven't seen anything that indicates that, at this point IMO.

It's very similar to the Al Franken situation as far as I'm concerned. Is it okay that he did hover hands over a women who was asleep? No. Does that disqualify him from being a good states person? No, I don't think it does. He apologizes. He promises to change his behavior. But it's not enough... cause nothing ever will be..

I work with a group of self help coaches and leadership development coaches.. and I'll tell ya... they are the most touchy/feely people I know. They are millionaires, but they look me deep in the eye, they hug me long and deep, and they whisper in me ear that they love me like a brother. And that's not a bad thing. I think it's toxic masculinity which says that that is a bad thing. That we need to be so tough and austere all the time. That we constantly need t have our guard up. It's okay to show our love to other people. To give them big hugs, to touch them on their cheeks, to kiss them on their foreheads. I think it's a sad thing that our world views such acts as harassment today. I understand why... because there are vile people who take advantage of the opportunity... but I'm disappointed nonetheless.

If a woman says no, then of course you don't treat her that way. And I'd never do this sort of thing to strangers. But I'm not a politician, and I am of a younger generation. I think the whole thing is over the top, but more or less forgivable and even understandable. Not something I'd call a disqualifier for me, personally. I think there is a certain group of people in this country who get off on this kind of 'burn them at the steak' social justice warfare... and that's what is really going on. In a world in which a man has enacted serious protections for battered women and other great things... and is known to be a kind, affectionate husband and father... and has been hobnobbing people for 5 decades... I think it's a very sad thing that 2 women who expressed discomfort because he got too close can ruin a man's chances to be President. I think that's wrong, personally.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You keep talking about him. It's not about him. It's about how the women, who had to deal with it, feel. And you completely ignore it. Just like his supporters have. Just like his little "jokes" today showed. More concerned with his chance at being president, then what his actions did to these women. What they said the experience was like. Also you are applying some really gross logic to people just doing what they like. Like touching other human beings, especially of the opposite sex. He wasn't a little child. Also you mention a woman saying no. Well what happens with the man, especially the man in power, does not give that option?

You know what will be enough? Not doing it. Also, it's 7 women now.

 

[Donner]

Why the **** would you smell the hair of a young girl?

Combating toxic masculinity now means letting guys "express" themselves by hugging women and children without their consent?

 

[Donner]

Also, you know that group of coaches. Biden was getting handsy with girls he's never met before. That's wrong.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Why the **** would you smell the hair of a young girl?

Combating toxic masculinity now means letting guys "express" themselves by hugging women and children without their consent?

Don't forget putting your hands on their hearts. Stop being unreasonable.

Seriously though. This is the logic used to complain about women being too "cool" in the past. A lot of it is based in the idea that women need to lighten up, and go with the way men are. Which of course, ignores the basis of MeToo. Which is not just about rape or sexual assault. But changing the general way so many men treat women like they can do what they like with them. Without consequence.

Being a rapist or sexual assaulter is not the only way to be a crappy man in these situation.

 

[MaceB]

You keep talking about him. It's not about him. It's about how the women, who had to deal with it, feel. And you completely ignore it. Just like his supporters have. Just like his little "jokes" today showed. Also you are applying some really gross logic to people just doing what they like. Like touching other human beings, especially of the opposite sex. He wasn't a little child.

No, intent does matter. If I slap a dude's but after he made a touch down, it's very different than if I slap a girl's but after our first date. I'm sorry that the women felt uncomfortable, and yes... we need to be aware of other's people's space. Biden has admitted as much. But context matters. This is not the same as assaulting women, or harassing women, or undervaluing women in the workplace. This is an honest mistake, at worst.

If I meet you for the first time, and you are at an event honoring your father, lost in battle... then I might be compelled to put my arm on your shoulder, to look you deep in the eyes, to tell you "I'm so sorry.. I love you," and to hug you, putting my hand on the back of your head. Now.. maybe that'd be too much for you. But my effort was not to make you uncomfortable... just the opposite. My goal was to connect with you. To let you know that you're important.

Why would an older man smell a younger women's hair? Depends on the situation. Maybe it was a clumsy way to express his care. Maybe he was in for a hug, and what seemed like a deep breathing in, was really just a deep breath. I don't know. Lots of possibilities.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Also, you know that group of coaches. Biden was getting handsy with girls he's never met before. That's wrong.

This is not of that level of course, not even close, but it kind of reminds me of how Larry Nassar got away with what he did for so long. That he was simply "helping". And by using that logic, it is basically telling those girls that their feelings are wrong. They are wrong to feel how they feel. It isn't his fault, it's yours. And that is just wrong.

There is no justification for someone touching you without your consent, outside of very obvious situation. And that Biden did it in intimate ways makes it worse. That he can't seemingly understand that, makes light of it, shows who he is.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No, intent does matter. If I slap a dude's but after he made a touch down, it's very different than if I slap a girl's but after our first date. I'm sorry that the women felt uncomfortable, and yes... we need to be aware of other's people's space. Biden has admitted as much. But context matters. This is not the same as assaulting women, or harassing women, or undervaluing women in the workplace. This is an honest mistake, at worst.

If I meet you for the first time, and you are at an event honoring your father, lost in battle... then I might be compelled to put my arm on your shoulder, to look you deep in the eyes, to tell you "I'm so sorry.. I love you," and to hug you, putting my hand on the back of your head. Now.. maybe that'd be too much for you. But my effort was not to make you uncomfortable... just the opposite. My goal was to connect with you. To let you know that you're important.

Why would an older man smell a younger women's hair? Depends on the situation. Maybe it was a clumsy way to express his care. Maybe he was in for a hug, and what seemed like a deep breathing in, was really just a deep breath. I don't know. Lots of possibilities.

Context does matter. That you are trying to rationalize out of it, is the issue.

If you met me and did that, I'd push you off. If you did that to a women I knew, I'd grab you, throw you off, and then I'd call the police. There is a big difference between shaking hands, and what you just described.

Lots of possibilities to grab someone you don't know intimately around the waist, putting your nose in their hair and kissing them... sure.

What does it say about Biden that what he has done has made at least 7 women uncomfortable?

 

[Donner]

If I meet you for the first time, and you are at an event honoring your father, lost in battle... then I might be compelled to put my arm on your shoulder, to look you deep in the eyes, to tell you "I'm so sorry.. I love you," and to hug you, putting my hand on the back of your head. Now.. maybe that'd be too much for you. But my effort was not to make you uncomfortable... just the opposite. My goal was to connect with you. To let you know that you're important.

It's not about you. And you would seriously do that to someone you never met before? That's pretty messed up and I know I would push you the hell away. You do not have a right to do that to someone without their permission. Men get away with doing **** like this because "I just wanted to express my concern" and "women are just too cold." That is absolute crap. Don't ever do this, please. If you're compelled to do so, ask first.

Your desire to let someone know that they're important does not *I repeat* DOES NOT override their sense of personal space.

 

[DarthSkywalker]