Discussion: The Second Amendment III

[Thundercrack85]

Yup. In 2011, Japan had the 6th highest suicide rate. The US was #34.

Imagine what it would be if guns were legal in Japan.

Scary.

 

[DACrowe]

After seeing Jon Stewarts's excellent episode last night, as well as Alex Jones's ranting on CNN, I can only say why do people make this such a black and white issue?

Why does it have to be no gun control or "they take away our guns," etc. etc.? Most do not want to end the 2nd Amendment and besides know that is impossible. Most want to make it harder for crazy people to get guns. While illegal crime rates with guns may not go down as much, mass murders certainly would and gun deaths could positively shrink.

Yes, improving mental health outreach in this country is necessary--one way to do it is to require anyone who wants to buy a gun to have a psychological evaluation--but let's not get distracted into saying that we shouldn't talk about GUNS in GUN violence or get off into the weeds of blaming video games and Hollywood. If we make it illegal to purchase assault weapons and extended magazines, the mass weapons of choice used by the last three mass murderers would become much harder for crazy people to get. You can still buy hunting rifles to hunt, handguns and shotguns to defend your home if you like. But you do not need a weapon made for maximum murder. And please do not pretend a semi-automatic weapon is going to protect you from the big, scary, conspiratorial US military.

Seriously, people need to calm down and come to the middle of the road on this.

 

[Spider-Who?]

And several dictators took over armed populaces. What about them? Do they not count?

A dictator taking over armed populaces (usually through rebellion as opposed to tightening control they already have) does not negate the point I was making.

Again, it's just completely a silly point to keep harping on, especially because it's based on a bunch of fallacies.

I'm failing to see why it's silly, nor where the fallacies are. It's historical fact that dictators tend to prefer those they intend to enslave/kill not be armed with guns. It's also fact that Hilter disarmed the Jews just before The Night of the Broken Glass (the start of the violence against the Jews).

He didn't support Gun control.

Yes, he did expand gun rights to most Germans, but I would call banning a certain group of people (the Jews) from owning, purchasing, or being in anyway involved with guns to be gun control. I don't see how you could interpret that differently.

He was supported in his actions by the public.

How does that change anything or make his actions right? And there plenty who opposed his actions as his reign progressed.

None of those quotes you keep posting were his specifically.

I only posted one quote by Hitler, and in double checking, I did not come across anything to suggest that quote in particular was not from him. In fact, I even found a citation:

quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens.

Even if it wasn't his quote directly, it doesn't matter for the topic on hand, as his actions (disarming the Jews) supports the mindset illustrated in the quotes. But what ever, feel free to ignore facts and twist my words to support whatever it is you're trying to say. Hitler isn't the topic of this thread, and I've said all I care to say on him.

 

[Spider-Who?]

After seeing Jon Stewarts's excellent episode last night, as well as Alex Jones's ranting on CNN, I can only say why do people make this such a black and white issue?

Why does it have to be no gun control or "they take away our guns," etc. etc.? Most do not want to end the 2nd Amendment and besides know that is impossible. Most want to make it harder for crazy people to get guns. While illegal crime rates with guns may not go down as much, mass murders certainly would and gun deaths could positively shrink.

Yes, improving mental health outreach in this country is necessary--one way to do it is to require anyone who wants to buy a gun to have a psychological evaluation--but let's not get distracted into saying that we shouldn't talk about GUNS in GUN violence or get off into the weeds of blaming video games and Hollywood. If we make it illegal to purchase assault weapons and extended magazines, the mass weapons of choice used by the last three mass murderers would become much harder for crazy people to get. You can still buy hunting rifles to hunt, handguns and shotguns to defend your home if you like. But you do not need a weapon made for maximum murder. And please do not pretend a semi-automatic weapon is going to protect you from the big, scary, conspiratorial US military.

Seriously, people need to calm down and come to the middle of the road on this.

Unfortunately, it's always the loudest people who are heard the most. On one side, we have psychos like Alex Jones. On the other, we have extremists like Diane Feinstein.

One of the many problems is that in terms of the "assault" weapons that most people who are decrying the legality of, most people have no idea what they're talking about, and are completely ignorant of the fact that there are far deadlier weapons we should be looking at. They just see a weapon that LOOKS scary and happens to have been used in a recent shooting, and say "BAN IT!" It's the flavor of the month, really.

I FULLY agree that improving mental health institutions, awareness, etc is fundamental. We also need a better justice system in general. Too many criminals get out too soon (or not put in jail, period). We had a big case here recently where a police officer was charged with several accounts of rape and pedophilia. He was looking at 20-30 years in prison, but he plead guilty, and the plea deal meant he does not have to register as a sex offender, and he only had to do a few months of jail time (which they considered covered during the trial). He basically got off scott-free.

I also agree that we need better gun laws. Maybe not stricter, but better. And in order to do that, we really need people who KNOW firearms in charge of this, not the real life version of Kyle's mom from South Park running around clueless.

 

[Thundercrack85]

After seeing Jon Stewarts's excellent episode last night, as well as Alex Jones's ranting on CNN, I can only say why do people make this such a black and white issue?

Why does it have to be no gun control or "they take away our guns," etc. etc.? Most do not want to end the 2nd Amendment and besides know that is impossible. Most want to make it harder for crazy people to get guns. While illegal crime rates with guns may not go down as much, mass murders certainly would and gun deaths could positively shrink.

Yes, improving mental health outreach in this country is necessary--one way to do it is to require anyone who wants to buy a gun to have a psychological evaluation--but let's not get distracted into saying that we shouldn't talk about GUNS in GUN violence or get off into the weeds of blaming video games and Hollywood. If we make it illegal to purchase assault weapons and extended magazines, the mass weapons of choice used by the last three mass murderers would become much harder for crazy people to get. You can still buy hunting rifles to hunt, handguns and shotguns to defend your home if you like. But you do not need a weapon made for maximum murder. And please do not pretend a semi-automatic weapon is going to protect you from the big, scary, conspiratorial US military.

Seriously, people need to calm down and come to the middle of the road on this.

Because many people on the side of more gun control do want to take away all guns.

As for "maximum murder", the AR-15 is issued to police throughout the country. Why that doesn't seem to trouble anyone on the gun control side... I wonder.

Not that a semiautomatic rifle is that much more dangerous than a semiautomatic handgun (at least in close quarters).

Banning "assault weapons" probably won't do anything. Didn't last time.

 

[dnno1]

Yes, dino, if something goes up, it is going to come down somewhere. It's called the law of gravity.

It figures that you would give some insensitive response.

It could also been from the Red Baron. How old are you exactly?

The Red Barron was dead by the time this incident happened (the late 1970's).

To what, an earthworm?

No, but the mere fact that it was shot into the ground means that there would be substantial risk that it or the debris from the impact could have injured someone. The fact that the shooter did not consider that makes it reckless endangerment.

So the guy shot point blank and missed and then the deputy just let him drive off. Ok. That would definitely be some evidence for banning idiocy. Of course some comments in this thread also have that covered but anyway.

He had his girlfriend in the car. You want him to follow the guy and endanger her? Of course he let him go and then called the police.

Many but not all. And yes, what it all comes down to is that it is legal. I guess you'll just have to find some way to live with it. Perhaps by making ludicrous arguments for your absolutist POV.

No, I don't. That's why things are going to change.

You need to go back and read my post. Your response makes no sense in the context of it.

Not really. You said that if the guns go away, the criminals will find some other way to commit crimes. The thing is that it will be more difficult to commit that crime without a gun. You suggested some pretty remote things like explosives or a car, but over the years we have taken a lot of precautions against those things. The biggest concern is that a criminal has access to a firearm out side the jurisdiction of the law and then brings it in to a municipality to commit crimes. That is what is happening in Chicago.

And you say I'm the one who isn't serious about protecting my family.

I am. Like I said before I have been around for 51 years and have never had a need for a gun (I even lived in a rough neighborhood with some pretty smart criminals). All I need to protect myself is a cell phone.

 

[dnno1]

The White House response to the Piers Morgan petition:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/when-discussing-second-amendment-keep-first-mind-too

 

[Grievous]

I read a response to the gun debate where a person said "come for my guns and see what awaits you". Obviously people have a right to defend what is theirs, but are there really that many people that would rather use they're guns to shoot people that come for their guns rather then hand them over?

 

[roach]

After seeing Jon Stewarts's excellent episode last night, as well as Alex Jones's ranting on CNN, I can only say why do people make this such a black and white issue?

Why does it have to be no gun control or "they take away our guns," etc. etc.? Most do not want to end the 2nd Amendment and besides know that is impossible. Most want to make it harder for crazy people to get guns. While illegal crime rates with guns may not go down as much, mass murders certainly would and gun deaths could positively shrink.

Yes, improving mental health outreach in this country is necessary--one way to do it is to require anyone who wants to buy a gun to have a psychological evaluation--but let's not get distracted into saying that we shouldn't talk about GUNS in GUN violence or get off into the weeds of blaming video games and Hollywood. If we make it illegal to purchase assault weapons and extended magazines, the mass weapons of choice used by the last three mass murderers would become much harder for crazy people to get. You can still buy hunting rifles to hunt, handguns and shotguns to defend your home if you like. But you do not need a weapon made for maximum murder. And please do not pretend a semi-automatic weapon is going to protect you from the big, scary, conspiratorial US military.

Seriously, people need to calm down and come to the middle of the road on this.

this 100000 percent.

 

[roach]

I read a response to the gun debate where a person said "come for my guns and see what awaits you". Obviously people have a right to defend what is theirs, but are there really that many people that would rather use they're guns to shoot people that come for their guns rather then hand them over?

I am finding that the more pro gun people who become vocal the more I think they shouldn't be the ones with guns.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I read a response to the gun debate where a person said "come for my guns and see what awaits you". Obviously people have a right to defend what is theirs, but are there really that many people that would rather use they're guns to shoot people that come for their guns rather then hand them over?

Well how would they come to take them? Kick down your door and steal your property? Yeah, you would get shot. Castle doctrine and all that.

Because that is what it comes down to if you start confiscating arms. Ask the redcoats. Retroactive gun legislature generally doesn't happen for that very reason.

Plus the redcoats mostly dealt with individual cities under martial law. You can't break down a 100 million+ doors.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I am finding that the more pro gun people who become vocal the more I think they shouldn't be the ones with guns.

The same goes for those who want to ban certain guns. In the course of their explanation of the guns they want to ban, they inevitably include just about every gun out there. They start resorting more to thoughts and feelings than actual facts and logic.

 

[roach]

The same goes for those who want to ban certain guns. In the course of their explanation of the guns they want to ban, they inevitably include just about every gun out there. They start resorting more to thoughts and feelings than actual facts and logic.

which is why both sides need to relax and come to a compromise on the situation.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Also can't tell you the difference between a semiautomatic and automatic.

 

[Thundercrack85]

which is why both sides need to relax and come to a compromise on the situation.

Or you could let the courts decide.

 

[wiegeabo]

Also can't tell you the difference between a semiautomatic and automatic.

I can. Just by looking at them!

 

[Webfoot Hero]

May not agree with him on a lot of topics but Jesse Ventura actually has some good points in his interview with Piers Morgan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxNenz7q_eY

 

[roach]

Or you could let the courts decide.

both sides have people who will influence the courts

 

[Thundercrack85]

I'd say as a rule, if you want to pass any legislation on anything, you need to know what the hell you're talking about.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Biden is saying Obama may do kind of executive order to push through gun control. If he does this, I see a very serious fight on his hands and he'll lose a good amount of willing bipartisan action of many issues.

http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...pared-to-take-executive-action-on-gun-control

 

[Kelly]

Yeah, I would blame our education system and I guess Bush's No Child Left Behind.

Also, like you say, education is usually very broad and not very deep. So kids learn a bunch of half truths, or flat out lies, that they spend the next twenty years learning is a bunch of crap. I don't think that can be too good for someone's psyche.

Look at our Hitler discussion right now. That war is over 70 years old, and most of what is taught about him and the war is leftover allied propaganda.

So yes, education is definitely a crapshoot here.

Oh hell no, you can't blame this on Bush too.....good grief, that type of thing has been happening in schools for over 20 years. I've been teaching for 22...it DID NOT just start with No Child Left Behind....When schools stopped tracking which was about 1980, was when the "herd mentality" began in our education system, and with that mentality came the "find anyway you can to make sure that they pass and graduate" even if they don't know how to read, which has led to what we have now...the "I'm entitled generation" and "I'm the best..." even though they don't know that Alaska is a state, not a country. : )

 

[enterthemadness]

Oh hell no, you can't blame this on Bush too.....good grief, that type of thing has been happening in schools for over 20 years. I've been teaching for 22...it DID NOT just start with No Child Left Behind....

Let's blame the Dept of Education for being a waste of money and time then.

 

[Kelly]

Let's blame the Dept of Education for being a waste of money and time then.

Oh, hell yeah....I'll definitely agree with that....

But, I have to say, I DO WANT "No Child Left Behind" left behind....

That was the main reason that I didn't vote for Bush in 2000, I knew he was planning on implementing that at the National level.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I think it's fair to bring up that NCLB law. It's pretty well regarded in great pieces of sh***y legislation, which may be a long list but still.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I actually don't think the "entitlement syndrome" is anything but a natural cycle. It's the period when the once dominant generation becomes old, the younger ones entered full blown adulthood, and that attitude and cultural dynamic develops. That's a side discussion.

The problem is our education is outdated more than anything. Because that's your essentially complaint anyways Kelly; is there is knowledge out there now better than what they know. In other words you I just don't think we keep up with current knowledge. Math and science, but also reading and writing, are particularly abysmal. This is why my old roommate swore up and down L'il Wayne was a lyrically genius, despite being about as subtle as a sledgehammer (and believe me I could harp on a few of his life choices too). Never read a book of course.

I actually struggle to blame the Department of Education; they are so underfunded it's hard to take them seriously. Our self-rigtheous attitude and imperialist behavior since the 1940s really haven't helped. There's a lot of blind patriotism that's spun out of the last twenty years too. Even geographically we're predisposed to xenophobia, especially in areas that are not melting pots. Lots of television definitely isn't helping. At all. Just being an entertainment and diversion mecha probably isn't a good thing either. Teachers unions. Lots of blame to go around.