Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

[Hotwire]

Laws only change the behavior of people that are willing to abide by them. They do nothing to the people that would undermine them.

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws. " -Plato

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." - Ben Franklin

I think that instead of prohibiting self defense measures, one needs to look at the cause of the violence in the first place.

The mere fact that laws exist is proof that, without them, as Optimus said, society would fall into ruin. People as a whole, unfortunately, need to be told what they can/should and cannot/shouldn't do. As a society, we are that f***ing stupid. That's why a curling iron has a warning label telling you not to stick it up your... orifice. That's why McDonald's had to pay a s*** load of money to a woman because they didn't warn her the hot coffee was f***ing hot! Without rules and laws, and an authority to enforce them, people would do a lot more bad things. Simply because they could get away with it. Don't believe me? Go to Walmart and find a kid who's parents don't put any rules on him. Shouldn't take but 5 minutes. Now, multiply that by a few hundred million.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

The mere fact that laws exist is proof that, without them, as Optimus said, society would fall into ruin. People as a whole, unfortunately, need to be told what they can/should and cannot/shouldn't do. As a society, we are that f***ing stupid. That's why a curling iron has a warning label telling you not to stick it up your... orifice. That's why McDonald's had to pay a s*** load of money to a woman because they didn't warn her the hot coffee was f***ing hot! Without rules and laws, and an authority to enforce them, people would do a lot more bad things. Simply because they could get away with it. Don't believe me? Go to Walmart and find a kid who's parents don't put any rules on him. Shouldn't take but 5 minutes. Now, multiply that by a few hundred million.

Also, frankly most people are lazy, and in their younger years only driven by the pursuit of pleasure and aversion of pain. Some would say maturing beyond this is, in fact, what morality is. What is "good" and "bad" for someone at the age of 2 is not the same as at the age of thirty. Priorities change and the world gets more difficult.

If we all lived in the wild, and I was one of the smarter ones, I'd build a shelter. The dumber one could come kill me and take my shelter, and he'd be stupid not to because my shelter protects me from an environment that is right now killing him. However the dumb one wouldn't take the much harder path of learning to build one himself, he could easily die in the process, so that too would be a stupid decision. Hence path of least resistance.

 

[Destructus86]

The mere fact that laws exist is proof that, without them, as Optimus said, society would fall into ruin. People as a whole, unfortunately, need to be told what they can/should and cannot/shouldn't do. As a society, we are that f***ing stupid. That's why a curling iron has a warning label telling you not to stick it up your... orifice. That's why McDonald's had to pay a s*** load of money to a woman because they didn't warn her the hot coffee was f***ing hot! Without rules and laws, and an authority to enforce them, people would do a lot more bad things. Simply because they could get away with it. Don't believe me? Go to Walmart and find a kid who's parents don't put any rules on him. Shouldn't take but 5 minutes. Now, multiply that by a few hundred million.

This is true, actually. We need laws. A country without a strong governing force will fall into chaos. Just look at Africa. Sure, they have a government (kind of), but large portions of the country are more or less controlled by violent militia. (i'm not talking about major cities) And that's just part of the issues they are facing. A lot of smaller towns are not really governed at all and let to fend for themselves...and we see how well that goes.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Yes, OP, whatever you say. Just because the culture at the time Plato was Philosophizing had different morals than what we have today concerning the treatment of children, it doesn't mean that we must throw away everything he said or wrote. We can use that argument for you as well, just because someone somewhere in your country hurt another person, that automatically invalidates your argument or anything you have to day. Your Logic again, escapes whatever you were trying to say.

It certainly doesn't do much to support his quote does it?

He claimed he didn't need a law to know how to "act responsibly" despite being a irresponsible pedophile. He even wrote a dialogue, called the Phaedrus which is basically about how loving and moral being a pedophile is.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

This is true, actually. We need laws. A country without a strong governing force will fall into chaos. Just look at Africa. Sure, they have a government (kind of), but large portions of the country are more or less controlled by violent militia. (i'm not talking about major cities) And that's just part of the issues they are facing. A lot of smaller towns are not really governed at all and let to fend for themselves...and we see how well that goes.

Bingo.

Liberals and Conservatives never disagree that rule or law needs to be in place they just disagree on A) mechanism B) extent or scope and C) who the authority on said legislation should be (whether or not it needs to be Government at all).

 

[SuBe]

It certainly doesn't do much to support his quote does it?

He claimed he didn't need a law to know how to "act responsibly" despite being a irresponsible pedophile. He even wrote a dialogue, called the Phaedrus which is basically about how loving and moral being a pedophile is.

Plenty of modern people write about how important Laws and their enforcement are, while ignoring that to pay for their enforcement, they must threaten the population with guns to pay for them. Where is your outcry for that immorality?

 

[enterthemadness]

We need less laws and taxes in this country. We have a mess called Big Govt. Yes, I agree that us Americans...probably would flip out and what not if all drugs were just made legal. However, legalize it, tax it, control it, and educate people on it, is a different matter. No one should go to Prison for a non-violet drug offense. Nixon and his War on Drugs is a huge failure.

Look at New Hampshire and it's seat belt law. Seat belts are optional. Why? Because up there I guess people have a thing called 'common sense' and know they should still wear one even without it being a law to wear one while in a moving car. National, that may be a nightmare. Should states have the right to vote on it? Yes. I believe in State Rights overall, but some things should be Federal Law. At same time I believe in a Limited Federal Govt.

Like Gary Johnson, I believe Gay Marriage needs to be a Federal Right. While it should actually be a State Rights issue, most States don't want it legal. But we are talking about human beings here, and guess what? If Straight people can get married and make it a mockery with our high divorce rate of around 50%, then why can't we let Gays have a shot at it? Isn't this the Land of the Free? Looking at the patriot Act, NDAA, our taxes, drug laws, and overall stance on Marriage, I guess not.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Plenty of modern people write about how important Laws and their enforcement are, while ignoring that to pay for their enforcement, they must threaten the population with guns to pay for them. Where is your outcry for that immorality?

You have a problem with threatening people who want to disrupt order?

 

[Super Kal]

some of you say they dont want to confiscate our guns...

HR226- Support Assault Firearms Elimination and Reduction for our Streets Act
~To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to allow a credit against tax for surrendering to authorities certain assault weapons.~
sponsor: Grijalva, Raúl (AZ DEM)

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr226

granted...
Prognosis:
3% chance of getting past committee.
1% chance of being enacted.

you guys, though, are incorrect to tell us that those in higher authority dont want to take away our guns... and this is only the beginning of it. and even in this particular bill, it says the following:

``SEC. 25E. ASSAULT WEAPON TURN-IN CREDIT.

``(a) Allowance of Credit.--
``(1) In general.--In the case of an individual who
surrenders a specified assault weapon to the United States or a
State or local government (or political subdivision thereof) as
part of a Federal, State, or local public safety program to
reduce the number of privately owned weapons, on the election
of the taxpayer there shall be allowed as a credit against the
tax imposed by this chapter an amount equal to $2,000.

now, if it said something to the lines of "to reduce the number of illegally obtained weapons by repeat offenders", then that would make sense, but that's not what it says; this part of the bill says it all. the person who created this bill, and those who support it, dont care about if the gun is owned by a law-abiding citizen. they just want to get rid of them completely. the definition of an "assault weapon" in this bill includes a semi-auto rifle with a detachable magazine and a threaded barrel.

no gun is worth what they're trying to push through.

 

[SuBe]

You have a problem with threatening people who want to disrupt order?

Who is "disrupting order", the person with an "IRS" badge banging on door demanding money waving a gun, or the person on the other side of the door who earned the money in the first place?

Who is "disrupting order", the person with some kind of vegetation in their pocket, or the person with a gun threatening their life because of it?

Who is "disrupting order", the person who just wants to provide for their family and live life with their own personal goals in mind, or the person ordering drones to bomb brown people half a globe away?

I know, I know, you are going to say "Straw man", "non-sequitur" again. So it doesn't really matter what I write anyways.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

You aren't the solely responsible for what you have. You know this, right?

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Who is "disrupting order", the person with an "IRS" badge banging on door demanding money waving a gun, or the person on the other side of the door who earned the money in the first place?

Well the guy with the IRS badge probably worked pretty hard to get that high up while the other guy, presumeably, is so late on his taxes, and has been evading taxes for so long, while living off the land provided for him by the ancestors of the people currently living in that country, that Government is forced to take action. Sounds like the other guy is a spoiled brat to me. He doesn't wish to leave the country he's in and doesn't want to pay for it either, but is still freeloading off of it.

Who is "disrupting order", the person with some kind of vegetation in their pocket, or the person with a gun threatening their life because of it?

I assume you mean pot? I mean I think that should be legal, and it's started to become legal...next one.

Who is "disrupting order", the person who just wants to provide for their family and live life with their own personal goals in mind, or the person ordering drones to bomb brown people half a globe away?

I don't see what you're trying to link here. Certainly due to foreign policy and the nation's military he's not under constant threat of foreign occupation...so there's that for the "family man".

I know, I know, you are going to say "Straw man", "non-sequitur" again. So it doesn't really matter what I write anyways.

Well then quit making logically flawed arguments bucko.

 

[SuBe]

You aren't the solely responsible for what you have. You know this, right?

Sure OP. Everyone owes something, to someone, somewhere. The invisible man that divides up all the resources, the benevolent man that gives and never takes. Oh, how I owe everything, to some one, some where. I am, and no one is responsible for their own actions at all, ever. How I forgot.

 

[SuBe]

Well the guy with the IRS badge probably worked pretty hard to get that high up while the other guy, presumeably, is so late on his taxes, and has been evading taxes for so long, while living off the land provided for him by the ancestors of the people currently living in that country, that Government is forced to take action. Sounds like the other guy is a spoiled brat to me. He doesn't wish to leave the country he's in and doesn't want to pay for it either, but is still freeloading off of it.

Everyone who pays taxes does so because they don't want to be threatened with jail. You can rationalize it anyway you like, but it is true. If you don't pay, you get a letter, if you don't answer that letter, you get a second, stronger letter that tells you of the consequences, if you don't answer that, you will get a phone call, then a visit with a man with a gun, if you don't comply, then you will be kidnapped and placed in front of a judge, who will threaten you again. If you don't pay then, you will be lead to jail and if at any time you resist, you are resisting arrest and could be shot and killed. If you comply, then you are sent to prison, where you are subjected to rape and possible murder. But the peaceful person, who is just trying to live his life in peace, is the one "disrupting order".

I assume you mean pot? I mean I think that should be legal, and it's started to become legal...next one.

I don't see what you're trying to link here. Certainly due to foreign policy and the nation's military he's not under constant threat of foreign occupation...so there's that for the "family man".

Yeah, not "foreign occupation, just domestic occupation.

Well then quit making logically flawed arguments bucko.

How is that not a logical argument: a man, in a costume, demanding money, with a gun, is "disrupting order"?

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Everyone who pays taxes does so because they don't want to be threatened with jail. You can rationalize it anyway you like, but it is true.

See, this is your problem, people can and do rationalize their decisions any way they like. I do. They will. I don't pay my taxes because I feel threatened. No one ever threatened me to do so. I pay them because I think I should. I usually pay them early. Get them out of the way, because I know when tax season is and I save for it. If I didn't want to, I'd leave. So, you're wrong, and you don't speak for me.

This is your problem. That entire argument you made is self-centered. You think because YOU feel that way, everyone should. Everyone doesn't have to think like you, and thank God they don't.

All you do is spout ego-ism. You honestly think that's a healthy mentality?

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Sure OP. Everyone owes something, to someone, somewhere. The invisible man that divides up all the resources, the benevolent man that gives and never takes. Oh, how I owe everything, to some one, some where. I am, and no one is responsible for their own actions at all, ever. How I forgot.

"This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. Then, I brushed my teeth with that water, filtered to standards set by the EPA and my state.

After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US Department of Agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank and printed by the Federal Bureau of Engraving and Printing. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

I park my car on the street, paved and maintained by the Department of Transportation, and put quarters issued by the United States Mint into the parking meter.

Then, after spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, I drive back to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and the fire marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log onto the Internet which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and post on freerepublic and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right. Keep government out of my Medicare!"
Unknown.

 

[SuBe]

See, this is your problem, people can and do rationalize their decisions any way they like. I do. They will. I don't pay my taxes because I feel threatened. No one ever threatened me to do so. I pay them because I think I should. I usually pay them early. Get them out of the way, because I know when tax season is and I save for it. If I didn't want to, I'd leave. So, you're wrong, and you don't speak for me.

This is your problem. That entire argument you made is self-centered. You think because YOU feel that way, everyone should. Everyone doesn't have to think like you, and thank God they don't.

All you do is spout ego-ism. You honestly think that's a healthy mentality?

Again, your indoctrination clouds you. You have been indoctrinated to believe that it is good and honest to pay the Mafia. It's okay buddy. You are not the only one. It is easier to live a life where you just repeat what propaganda you have been force fed by your masters instead of think outside of the Matrix we have been breed into.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Again, your indoctrination clouds you. You have been indoctrinated to believe that it is good and honest to pay the Mafia. It's okay buddy. You are not the only one. It is easier to live a life where you just repeat what propaganda you have been force fed by your masters instead of think outside of the Matrix we have been breed into.

Calling people indoctrinated. Wow? Throwing around insults and you're a mod.

You sit here and talk about how you hate authority and then abuse authority.

No, you're not brainwashed.

 

[wiegeabo]

Stop measuring dick sizes guys and get back to the topic at hand maybe?

 

[SuBe]

"This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. Then, I brushed my teeth with that water, filtered to standards set by the EPA and my state.

After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US Department of Agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank and printed by the Federal Bureau of Engraving and Printing. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

I park my car on the street, paved and maintained by the Department of Transportation, and put quarters issued by the United States Mint into the parking meter.

Then, after spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, I drive back to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and the fire marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log onto the Internet which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and post on freerepublic and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right. Keep government out of my Medicare!"
Unknown.

Yes, and at no point as you read this repost, did you think about the blood and slavery of the peasants forced to pay for all of this. Instead of thinking, "I'm a slave to this. I am dependent on the crack of Government", you think, "Look how free I live because of blood money that pays for it, I support the hit men that allows me to live at the cost of other people's freedom".

 

[SuBe]

Ok, back on topic. Sorry.

THE END OF GUN CONTROL, OR ANARCHY? SEE THE CHILLING POSSIBILITIES CREATED BY 3D PRINTED GUNS

“America, is this guy a hero or a villain?”

That was one of the questions asked by Glenn Beck during a fascinating and potentially frightening interview with Cody Wilson of Defense Distributed, The WikiWeapons Project. If you are not familiar with them, Wilson’s group claims to be “A non-profit collaborative project to create freely available plans for printable 3D guns.”

In a segment during Beck’s TV program about The Singularity, a technology-evolutionary jump, Wilson was talking about his success in using 3D printers to actually make plastic guns. (Cody Wilson has actually fired these printed components — see video below.) Beck also showed a functional, high-capacity magazine that was made by the WikiWeapons project using a 3D printer.


Image: TheBlazeTV.com
While it is illegal to print an entire gun, parts can be printed and guns assembled with relative ease. Cody Wilson explained to Beck that the file for the high-capacity magazine has been downloaded more that 150,000 times since President Obama’s announcement of his Executive Orders on limiting guns.

The cost of creating weapons in your own home is coming down very rapidly. Just as with any technology, as it becomes more popular, the price to own it drops exponentially. Both host and guest agree that 3D printers will soon be as cheap to own and operate as ink-jet printers are today.

Is the 3D printer a “game changer” in the gun control debate? Would access to this technology create more bad than good?

Watch the fascinating back and forth between Beck and Wilson on the possibilities (both good and bad) created by the use of 3D printers to make real guns:



The full video showing Defense Distributed’s printed magazine in action can be seen here:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...ing-possibilities-created-by-3d-printed-guns/

 

[wiegeabo]

Looks like the NRA's claim, and television ad, stating that the school Obama's kids attend has guards armed with guns is completely wrong.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs.../?Post+generic=?tid=sm_twitter_washingtonpost

None of the guards have guns. The only people who do are the Secret Service agent protecting the Obamas, who are required to be there by Federal law.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Yes, and at no point as you read this repost, did you think about the blood and slavery of the peasants forced to pay for all of this. Instead of thinking, "I'm a slave to this. I am dependent on the crack of Government", you think, "Look how free I live because of blood money that pays for it, I support the hit men that allows me to live at the cost of other people's freedom".

So live in Somalia, and no Government will ever try to oppress you, ever. You can have all the guns you want and absolutely no laws whatsoever.

 

[Fading]

The mere fact that laws exist is proof that, without them, as Optimus said, society would fall into ruin. People as a whole, unfortunately, need to be told what they can/should and cannot/shouldn't do. As a society, we are that f***ing stupid. That's why a curling iron has a warning label telling you not to stick it up your... orifice. That's why McDonald's had to pay a s*** load of money to a woman because they didn't warn her the hot coffee was f***ing hot! Without rules and laws, and an authority to enforce them, people would do a lot more bad things. Simply because they could get away with it. Don't believe me? Go to Walmart and find a kid who's parents don't put any rules on him. Shouldn't take but 5 minutes. Now, multiply that by a few hundred million.

There will always be people who break laws. Just because there are though doesn't mean the answer is to say, **** it, and do away with laws. We put laws in place as guide lines for what's unacceptable in a civilized society. If you break those laws we as a society punish you, whether that be a fine, or imprisonment. Most of the time the threat is enough to keep most people clean. Those who don't, end up in prison or poor from fines.

It's like saying that people still murder, so screw it, just decriminalize murder. That's not to say I disagree totally with something like ETM's statement. Gov can, and has gotten too big in certain areas. There are certain rights we should fight to keep from getting trampled. The patriot act for one got me up in arms when it came out, so I'd be hypocritical to say otherwise. Some of our taxes are overboard as well. Personally though, I don't see the white houses new gun control ideas as being overboard.

 

[Fading]

We need less laws and taxes in this country. We have a mess called Big Govt. Yes, I agree that us Americans...probably would flip out and what not if all drugs were just made legal. However, legalize it, tax it, control it, and educate people on it, is a different matter. No one should go to Prison for a non-violet drug offense. Nixon and his War on Drugs is a huge failure.

Look at New Hampshire and it's seat belt law. Seat belts are optional. Why? Because up there I guess people have a thing called 'common sense' and know they should still wear one even without it being a law to wear one while in a moving car. National, that may be a nightmare. Should states have the right to vote on it? Yes. I believe in State Rights overall, but some things should be Federal Law. At same time I believe in a Limited Federal Govt.

Like Gary Johnson, I believe Gay Marriage needs to be a Federal Right. While it should actually be a State Rights issue, most States don't want it legal. But we are talking about human beings here, and guess what? If Straight people can get married and make it a mockery with our high divorce rate of around 50%, then why can't we let Gays have a shot at it? Isn't this the Land of the Free? Looking at the patriot Act, NDAA, our taxes, drug laws, and overall stance on Marriage, I guess not.

Personally, I don't think everything should be up to the states. Some things infringe on human rights, and shouldn't be up to argument. Others depend on people not being idiots.

Some drugs cause halucinations that have lead to people eating other people, and killing in general. No amount of education on acid is going to prevent people from tripping out and doing something harmful to themselves, or someone else. Just like no amount of education is going to stop an idiot from getting into his car drunk and killing someone, which is why it's illegal to drive under the influence. While I'm for marijuana legalization, some things are just too harmful to leave it up to the individual. A lot of drug issues don't just affect the one taking them. They lash out at family, do stupid things, and hurt strangers.

Same with seatbelts. There are plenty of parents who think seatbelts are a waste of time and energy, and if it wasn't law would simply leave their children unbuckled. Then they have a wreck, and their child goes flying through the front windshield. Maybe the fine for not having a seatbelt should be lessoned, but if it saves lives, and it's not that big of a deal, then why not?