Discussion: The Tea Party

[BlackLantern]

hmmm

 

[Marx]

'TEA PARTY' ACTIVISTS GATHER IN DC FOR 9/12 RALLY
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...her-in-washington-ahead-of-midterm-elections/

 

[Marx]

PICTURES FROM THE 9/12 RALLY
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...12-rally-obama-is-not-an-american.php?ref=fpc

'By Ballot OR By Bullet'...?

 

[StorminNorman]

I can see Marx-circa 1775 now.

QUOTES FROM PATRICK HENRY SPEACH
http://tpmdc.18thcenturytalkingpoin...12-rally-obama-is-not-an-american.php?ref=fpc

'Give me Liberty or Give me DEATH'...?

 

[Marx]

This isn't 1775 Norm...

 

[StorminNorman]

For the sake of the country, it better be.

I don't think Washington would have fought if he would have seen what the American government would eventually come. The government we have today is the same government they fought against in 1776.

 

[TimBisley]

And it became that way almost immediately after the revolution.

 

[StorminNorman]

No. It didn't become that way until the early 20th Century.

 

[TimBisley]

No. It got away from this idealized notion of what our country is from the get go.

 

[DACrowe]

Yes. The United States is just like Great Britain.

I love how the Tea Partiers and malcontents constantly fail to see that THEY HAVE REPRESENTATION. THIS IS NOT 1775. THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT TRYING YOU WITHOUT EVIDENCE OR A FAIR HEARING (though your party's previous administration sure tried to make that happen and still is), AMERICAN SOLDIERS ARE NOT OPENING FIRES ONTO CROWDED STREETS, PORTS ARE NOT BEING CLOSED, CITIZENS ARE NOT BEING TORTURED (though again, see last Administration), OBAMA IS NOT STARRING IMPERIAL WARS (go see last Administration, yet again), AND THOSE WHO SPEAK AGAINS THE GOVERNMENT ARE NOT BEING THREATENED WITH HANGING.

THIS TEA PARTY, "OBAMA IS WORSE THAN COLONIAL BRITAIN, HITLER, MAO, VLAD TEPES DRACULA,, CASTRO, AND STALIN IN A BIG MAN PILE" PARANOIA IS REALLY, REALLY STUPID.

 

[StorminNorman]

The individual issues themselves are different, as one would expect in the difference of 200 years. However this country now has a federal government with no Constitution, a central government which chooses amongst itself how much power it has to use and how it should use it. Gone are the checks and balances. Gone is the notion of States Rights. Gone also is Capitalism, the economic principal that gave this country such success.

And this isn't an Obama issue. Obama doesn't have the competency or skill to make the political curses that plague this country. This is larger than one party. This is Individualism v. Collectivism. The Enlightenment v. a return to Socialism. Reason v. Duty. Slaves v. Freeman.

 

[hippie_hunter]

No. It got away from this idealized notion of what our country is from the get go.

Not really, the expansion of the federal government to where it is today lies with Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War where they established that the federal government is above the state governments.

Before then, most of the leaders were pretty damn determined on keeping the government, mostly in line with the Constitution.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Yes. The United States is just like Great Britain.

I love how the Tea Partiers and malcontents constantly fail to see that THEY HAVE REPRESENTATION. THIS IS NOT 1775. THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT TRYING YOU WITHOUT EVIDENCE OR A FAIR HEARING (though your party's previous administration sure tried to make that happen and still is), AMERICAN SOLDIERS ARE NOT OPENING FIRE ONTO CROWDED STREETS, PORTS ARE NOT BEING CLOSED, CITIZENS ARE NOT BEING TORTURED (though again, see last Administration), OBAMA IS NOT STARTING IMPERIAL WARS (go see last Administration, yet again), AND THOSE WHO SPEAK AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT ARE NOT BEING THREATENED WITH HANGING.

THIS TEA PARTY, "OBAMA IS WORSE THAN COLONIAL BRITAIN, HITLER, MAO, VLAD TEPES DRACULA,, CASTRO, AND STALIN IN A BIG GAY MAN PILE" PARANOIA IS REALLY, REALLY STUPID.[/B][/I]

Bush deserves all the criticism he gets for his illegal expansion of the powers of the government, but Obama is continuing his imperialistic policies by expanding the war in Afghanistan, continuing with the PATRIOT Act, and increasing the massive amounts of spending to the point where he makes Bush look like a coupon clipping housewife.

 

[StorminNorman]

Hippie's bringin' the meat.

Have you read any Austrian or Chicago economics? Any Mises, Hayek, Rothbard, Friedman? Any Rand? If not I highly advise you do so. Rothbard's work on the Great Depression especially as he basically demonstrates (decades before this Crisis) how we were repeating the exact steps that brought us to the Great Depression. These economists predicted exactly what happened and yet no one in power knows anything about them. (With the exception being possibly Milton Friedman).

 

[hippie_hunter]

I'll have to check those out

 

[StorminNorman]

I'll send you a PM with some stuff if you are interested. Most of the good stuff is free online.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Sure thing.

 

[VampElvis]

If you are in a giving mood, I'll take that PM as well maestro.

 

[DACrowe]

The individual issues themselves are different, as one would expect in the difference of 200 years. However this country now has a federal government with no Constitution, a central government which chooses amongst itself how much power it has to use and how it should use it. Gone are the checks and balances. Gone is the notion of States Rights. Gone also is Capitalism, the economic principal that gave this country such success.

And this isn't an Obama issue. Obama doesn't have the competency or skill to make the political curses that plague this country. This is larger than one party. This is Individualism v. Collectivism. The Enlightenment v. a return to Socialism. Reason v. Duty. Slaves v. Freeman.

I thought government "destroyed the Constitution" and the American dream in the 20th century. Especially FDR-onward. Isn't that the era that gave us all our economic growth, superpower status and global dominance? You say capitalism is why we're successful, but we were most successful in the 20th century--a century you revile because of the "progressives" and their "elitist agenda" (like making sure children go to school, minorities are treated fairly, women can vote, returning warriors can go to college, the elderly aren't homeless or work until they drop, etc. etc.).

Then how come capitalism (which you claim is gone) had the most success after those "evil, evil" progressives destroyed it? Revisionist history just creates so many holes in logic.

oh, and

P.S. There is no correlation between 1775 British Empire and the United States today. That is stupid. "Well the issues have changed." No, if you make a comparison to colonial Britain you damn well better be able to make the connections of Britain's most heinous or aggreigous offenses to our Founders and to liberty. Britain could dissolve local government on a whim, suspend civil liberties, torture citizens, refuse a fair trial to citizens, and denied them the right to vote. The US is not doing that and Obama surely isn't (though Bush did toy with torture and the GOP sure doesn't believe in fair trials post-9/11, but so far it has only been non-Americans so that's OK then).

It's as stupid as when people say Obama is like Hitler. Tell you what--when they come to round up the Jews (or in redneck paranoia fear, the Tea Partiers) I'll speak out.

 

[DACrowe]

Bush deserves all the criticism he gets for his illegal expansion of the powers of the government, but Obama is continuing his imperialistic policies by expanding the war in Afghanistan, continuing with the PATRIOT Act, and increasing the massive amounts of spending to the point where he makes Bush look like a coupon clipping housewife.

The deficit will actually be down next quarter, below where it was when Bush left office......

Anyway, I do agree that Obama continuing the PATRIOT Act and fighting for FBI to basically invade anybody's privacy without warrant is disheartening and I oppose it. I hope the civil liberty lawyers take the justice Department to school in the upcoming trials (though I'm very skeptical), but that doesn't deny that this was a Bush Administration push and that the former was the one who used torture, which is far closer to "being just like 1775." And yet the right just wasn't quiet, they were CHEERING ON THESE DISGRACES AND DEFENDING THEM.

As for Afghanistan, I"m not sure I consider that an imperial war like Iraq. I mean we were attacked by a terrorist organization operating out of that state and its government (the Taliban) was aiding and sheltering them. So, at least we have just cause to be there. Now the realities are we squandered our chances for a real victory in the first year when we half-assed it to save most of our military force for Iraq. I am extremely skeptical about being able to win that war and doubt the president on this issue, greatly.

But that is not the same as invading Iraq under false pretenses in any case.

 

[StorminNorman]

Especially Wilson-onward (though not without assist from Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt). The era gave us economic growth and superpower status thanks to war, not sound domestic policy. It's easy to become a Superpower when you are safely placed on the otherside of the world, protected by vast oceans. While the other world powers were being pummeled with bombs and tanks American industry was producing.

It's simple logic - would such conditions of war create Economic Growth? Yes. Superpower Status? Yes. Global Dominance? Yes. Your ability to analyze an issue while ignoring such important considerations is what allows you to be such a dedicated progressive.

The irony of WWII is, of course, the allies of America/Great Britain and the Soviet Union were fighting Fascism in Europe while the former two were on the path to their own piece of Fascism while the Soviet Union would demonstrate the true horrors of Collectivist ideology. We fought National Socialism in Germany just to bring Democratic Socialism to America.

 

[DACrowe]

Yes, war did make us rich and pull us out of a Depression---with MASSIVE government stimulus spending on the war effort (spending that paid for such silly things as the atomic bomb that won the Pacific Theater and clearly positioned us above USSR, scaring them out of the Pacific permanently). And after the war the stability offered by sound economics and programs like Social Security, the GI Bill (educating our returning war heroes into a better working force in a "socialist program"), and the Civil Rights Act created more opportunity and more prosperity. You can say by the late '70s that the programs were bloated and in need of overhaul, but even Ronald Reagan understood reforming did not mean destroying as he worked with Tip O'Neal to reform social security and such programs that continued a level of measured prosperity.

The early 20th century was a rollercoaster of economic crisis, boom and bust for the first 30 years, leading to a decade-long bust. Post-FDR and WWII we saw economic prosperity that lasted decades after the 1940s boom and a society with an exploding middle class thanks the government relief efforts of that era. Like a good libertarian, your ideology fails to see that the reason we stayed prosperous and grew a middle class, decreased the poverty line and developed the retirement standard in this country was because of sound policy that you want to dismantle so we can return to the crises of the early 20th century--like we did in 2008 after 30 years of deregulating Wall Street.

And the greatest irony is even after 2008 resembling 1929, you still think the Harding-Coolidge model is ideal.

 

[AG1973]

Yes, war did make us rich and pull us out of a Depression---with MASSIVE government stimulus spending on the war effort (spending that paid for such silly things as the atomic bomb that won the Pacific Theater and clearly positioned us above USSR, scaring them out of the Pacific permanently). And after the war the stability offered by sound economics and programs like Social Security, the GI Bill (educating our returning war heroes into a better working force in a "socialist program"), and the Civil Rights Act created more opportunity and more prosperity. You can say by the late '70s that the programs were bloated and in need of overhaul, but even Ronald Reagan understood reforming did not mean destroying as he worked with Tip O'Neal to reform social security and such programs that continued a level of measured prosperity.

The early 20th century was a rollercoaster of economic crisis, boom and bust for the first 30 years, leading to a decade-long bust. Post-FDR and WWII we saw economic prosperity that lasted decades after the 1940s boom and a society with an exploding middle class thanks the government relief efforts of that era. Like a good libertarian, your ideology fails to see that the reason we stayed prosperous and grew a middle class, decreased the poverty line and developed the retirement standard in this country was because of sound policy that you want to dismantle so we can return to the crises of the early 20th century--like we did in 2008 after 30 years of deregulating Wall Street.

And the greatest irony is even after 2008 resembling 1929, you still think the Harding-Coolidge model is ideal.

Good post Crowe

Do people realize that the Stock Market is a variation of a socilaism?

The stock market is in actuality Public ownership of the means of production.

Paid Healthcare for veterans is a socialist principle.

The government maintaining roads and waterways are socialist principles.

Maintaining a standing military is a socialist principle.

My point is socialism is not all bad and our system is mix of Capitalist and Socialist principles.

A balance must be struck and do to circumstances it slides to the left or right. 100% capitalism is not good just as 100% socialism is not good either....

 

[bell110]

Yes, war did make us rich and pull us out of a Depression---with MASSIVE government stimulus spending on the war effort (spending that paid for such silly things as the atomic bomb that won the Pacific Theater and clearly positioned us above USSR, scaring them out of the Pacific permanently). And after the war the stability offered by sound economics and programs like Social Security, the GI Bill (educating our returning war heroes into a better working force in a "socialist program"), and the Civil Rights Act created more opportunity and more prosperity. You can say by the late '70s that the programs were bloated and in need of overhaul, but even Ronald Reagan understood reforming did not mean destroying as he worked with Tip O'Neal to reform social security and such programs that continued a level of measured prosperity.

The early 20th century was a rollercoaster of economic crisis, boom and bust for the first 30 years, leading to a decade-long bust. Post-FDR and WWII we saw economic prosperity that lasted decades after the 1940s boom and a society with an exploding middle class thanks the government relief efforts of that era. Like a good libertarian, your ideology fails to see that the reason we stayed prosperous and grew a middle class, decreased the poverty line and developed the retirement standard in this country was because of sound policy that you want to dismantle so we can return to the crises of the early 20th century--like we did in 2008 after 30 years of deregulating Wall Street.

And the greatest irony is even after 2008 resembling 1929, you still think the Harding-Coolidge model is ideal.

Also, back then, Americans had to sacrifice for their government for us to win that war. Good luck asking Americans to sacrifice anything to win the war on terrorism.

Good post Crowe

Do people realize that the Stock Market is a variation of a socilaism?

The stock market is in actuality Public ownership of the means of production.

Paid Healthcare for veterans is a socialist principle.

The government maintaining roads and waterways are socialist principles.

Maintaining a standing military is a socialist principle.

My point is socialism is not all bad and our system is mix of Capitalist and Socialist principles.

A balance must be struck and do to circumstances it slides to the left or right. 100% capitalism is not good just as 100% socialism is not good either....

Socialism has just become a scare word to motivate the right wing movement.

 

[The Squirrel]

The deficit will actually be down next quarter, below where it was when Bush left office......

Haha... Good luck.