Discussion: WikiLeaks

If China was playing this game 40 years ago with a much weaker economy and military, what do you think they're up to now?

Obviously not doing a very good job of whacking this guy. He's still above ground, right?

I agree Marx, Ron Paul is a good guy, but comes off as a nutter, sadly.
 
:facepalm:

There's so much wrong with that point of view. that I can't even begin....maybe I should start with where you are right.

Yes, getting to the truth of an issue takes time. The reason it takes time is because most people don't want to believe bad things, not because of a conspiracy to cover things up. It's human nature to exaggerate, so a natural response is to say "No way!"

In several of the situations you use as examples, there are highly implausable (not impossible) circumstances. Ritual Satanic murders of child prostitutes in the midwest linked to political figures? Where did the bodies go? Did Satan dispose of them? :huh:

See that's the problems with conspiracies. They are like an inverted pyramid. They require more and more work to believe in, the deeper in you delve. Pretty soon, you are expected to believe in something fantastical, to support it all. Chances are there's a far more mundane explanation (Fell asleep at the wheel, income tax fraud, wants attention, wants attention, disgruntled ex-employee, or an former Marine who was a really good shot).

That's why it's best to vette those ideas through the established process. This way the pyramid isn't inverted, but has a stable base.

And here we go, one of the 2 most common types of rebuttals to these "nutty theories"(and with an example of the other one by DACrowe later on that same page). One saying it's simpler to believe in consiparices rather than the "boring" truth, the other, yours, saying it's harder to believe in them because there's so much work and thought and complexity to it. So which one is it folks? Too complex or too simple? If you're going to criticize it, might as well be consistent in the criticism. But I digress.

Those examples I used, they aren't based on speculation, specifically the one that you glossed over and more or less shrugged off by citing the "radical" nature of it(which, again, is a common practice when faced with a situation or a crime that "shouldn't or couldn't" happen). It happened, simple as that. If you really want to go over the details on it that make it indisputable, we can take it to PMs just because there's a lot to it.

In general, yeah it may sound like something out of a corny B-movie, but real people died, a plane crash destroyed evidence of the crimes as well as the special investigator who uncovered it, and the witnesses who didn't recant their original testimony from the first trial either ended up in prison on account of perjury (even though they never changed their story) with relatives being suddenly killed and then changing their story or being killed themselves or all the above.

Again,I know how it all sounds, but that's what really happened. Can't make that up, those people are dead. And the roots of all that came from one little city in Nebraska that no one heard of and the story of which was mostly buried, along with a documentary that was canceled and never shown on TV ("Conspiracy of Silence", although you still can find it in bad quality on Google Video or youtube).

That was a couple decades ago and they knew then they were only on the brink of something much bigger ( maybe, just maybe, like the Afghan "Dancing Boys"?). Unfortunately, all the remaining evidence was turned over for destruction back in 2007. That's the "established process" at work for you. At what point do you think, in this "established process" would we had ever heard anything about that child sex ring? Or the "Dancing Boys" for that matter?

Even with them working tirelessly on it through this "established process", it really didn't register more than a blip on the radar, you had the grand jury for the case actually saying things like,"Children do have the right that if they exhibit reasonable behavior, to not be abused. " and,"It was a carefully crafted hoax." Not in support of the case, but in argument against it. That this already very involving conspiracy and criminal activity was much bigger and more involving as it was all a set up just to make it look like a conspiracy. Soooo yeah, so much for the "established process" and their stable base keeping us all grounded and in reality.

Going back to my stance about releasing the info: Go ahead and continue to do it. Because it's shown time and time again that this "established process" will do anything and everything to keep, or delay as much as possible, the releasing of any kind damaging information on certain groups or individuals, not because it risks national security, but because it risks implicating those even higher up the chain, in the highest offices of government. A Laurence King can be sentenced to 15 years, that's an "acceptable loss" but you sure as **** better not implicate a George Bush in that case, even though it has evidence pointing up that high in government.

People like that deserve to be outed, and "playing by the rules" isn't going to get it done when they are the ones who make up the rules.
 
Yeah, things like this is why Ron Paul is easily dismissed in the eyes of the public. I believe he's a good guy and he has some great ideas, but he has a tendency to go a little too far 'out there'.

I'm having a hard time disagreeing with anything he said on the House floor.

Aside from choosing a politically unpopular stance, publicly...which from a purely political standpoint might not be so wise (as BL said), I don't see anything crazy with what Paul actually said.

I don't care what side your on in this debate, it is ****ing crazy to want to hit someone who isn't even American with treason...
 
We need WikiLeaks, without the Cables, stories of events such as the shady political dealings surrounding the accused Lockerbie bomber, reports of American diplomatic pressure on Spain and Sweden regarding how to write the nations' copyright laws, Afghan troops purchasing "services" from children and the subsequent help they received from the Americans in suppressing the story. Yes, they are essential for the public to know in order to form a more well-rounded decision in its support for the government's actions.

It seems like every single person who keeps trotting out the familiar "everything reported in these leaks doesn't really add anything new to the picture / have been already known for some time" is both (a) actively defending, concealing, and legitimatizing government misconduct and (b) a proponent of the status quo of the state of affairs we have currently where the government actively, frequently, and wantonly misleads its citizens into supporting its agenda with what are undisclosed additional pieces to the picture at best, outright shameless lies at worst.
 
We need transparency, not WikiLeaks.

The more I learn about the situation, the more I turn against Assange. The guy's aim isn't a more just government, but a revolution in government.
 
We need transparency, not WikiLeaks.

The more I learn about the situation, the more I turn against Assange. The guy's aim isn't a more just government, but a revolution in government.

What's to say that it's not needed? Do we need to go through how much ******** the current system is up to it's neck in? Two parties controlled by the same interests, just puppets used in back and forth bickering matches as distractions to the general public on CNN or Fox or whatever? A non existent democracy? We don't have a choice.
 
What's to say that it's not needed? Do we need to go through how much ******** the current system is up to it's neck in? Two parties controlled by the same interests, just puppets used in back and forth bickering matches as distractions to the general public on CNN or Fox or whatever? A non existent democracy? We don't have a choice.

That would be fine, if he were actually American...... I'm not for someone from another country who thinks they know whats best for me and my country ****ing things up to start a revolution here....


He doesn't seem to have an intelligent filter.....if he had one of those, I would say....more power to him...
 
I heard that Assange's one request in prison was a computer. :funny:
 
LMAO.....OH DAMN, I want them to give him a computer........just for the hell of it, and have every firewall known to man on it....lmao.
 
LMAO.....

gosh dang it.....

*goes to get paper towel to clean coke zero off of screen*
 
They actually posted both so get your facts straight.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125731952

I said they posted both. But the original version was released after and buried at the bottom of the page as a link. For those who click on the sensational headlines with the word murders are going to watch the video at the top of the page which is the one selectively edited to purport a biased message that the US military is evil.

That is what I said. And it is BS. I have no respect for that.
 
Is it true that 'SNL' spoofed Assange last night?
 
And here we go, one of the 2 most common types of rebuttals to these "nutty theories"(and with an example of the other one by DACrowe later on that same page). One saying it's simpler to believe in consiparices rather than the "boring" truth, the other, yours, saying it's harder to believe in them because there's so much work and thought and complexity to it. So which one is it folks? Too complex or too simple? If you're going to criticize it, might as well be consistent in the criticism. But I digress.

Those examples I used, they aren't based on speculation, specifically the one that you glossed over and more or less shrugged off by citing the "radical" nature of it(which, again, is a common practice when faced with a situation or a crime that "shouldn't or couldn't" happen). It happened, simple as that. If you really want to go over the details on it that make it indisputable, we can take it to PMs just because there's a lot to it.

In general, yeah it may sound like something out of a corny B-movie, but real people died, a plane crash destroyed evidence of the crimes as well as the special investigator who uncovered it, and the witnesses who didn't recant their original testimony from the first trial either ended up in prison on account of perjury (even though they never changed their story) with relatives being suddenly killed and then changing their story or being killed themselves or all the above.

Again,I know how it all sounds, but that's what really happened. Can't make that up, those people are dead. And the roots of all that came from one little city in Nebraska that no one heard of and the story of which was mostly buried, along with a documentary that was canceled and never shown on TV ("Conspiracy of Silence", although you still can find it in bad quality on Google Video or youtube).

That was a couple decades ago and they knew then they were only on the brink of something much bigger ( maybe, just maybe, like the Afghan "Dancing Boys"?). Unfortunately, all the remaining evidence was turned over for destruction back in 2007. That's the "established process" at work for you. At what point do you think, in this "established process" would we had ever heard anything about that child sex ring? Or the "Dancing Boys" for that matter?

Even with them working tirelessly on it through this "established process", it really didn't register more than a blip on the radar, you had the grand jury for the case actually saying things like,"Children do have the right that if they exhibit reasonable behavior, to not be abused. " and,"It was a carefully crafted hoax." Not in support of the case, but in argument against it. That this already very involving conspiracy and criminal activity was much bigger and more involving as it was all a set up just to make it look like a conspiracy. Soooo yeah, so much for the "established process" and their stable base keeping us all grounded and in reality.

Going back to my stance about releasing the info: Go ahead and continue to do it. Because it's shown time and time again that this "established process" will do anything and everything to keep, or delay as much as possible, the releasing of any kind damaging information on certain groups or individuals, not because it risks national security, but because it risks implicating those even higher up the chain, in the highest offices of government. A Laurence King can be sentenced to 15 years, that's an "acceptable loss" but you sure as **** better not implicate a George Bush in that case, even though it has evidence pointing up that high in government.

People like that deserve to be outed, and "playing by the rules" isn't going to get it done when they are the ones who make up the rules.

Can I just say conspiracy theories are almost always weak arguments. You're not working from the evidence to a conclusion. You start with a conclusion and any circumstantial evidence you find that corresponds with that already-chosen conclusion is used. This leads to a skewed reading of the facts by the theorist who ends up with "theories" that have huge holes. When asked to explain those holes, they blame "they" (the government, the mob, the corporation, the man, etc.) for covering it up.

A journalist follows the story from where the facts lead. For example a journalist would research the rape charges against Assange. Who are the women who did it? What evidence do they have? Why is the Swedish government interested in pursuit? Is there DNA? Why would progressive feminists falsify something like this?

A conspiracy theorist assumes Assange is a hero and all the governments of the world are evil. So, he was arrested after a new batch of Wikileaks. That proves he is being set up by the government. Case closed, the Swedish, British, and American governments are evil and in cahoots to kill Assange.

That is not really substantiated by anything in the case against him. But it sure does make for a compelling fantasy. It's like those who think the Pentagon was hit by a missile on 9/11 when we have actual footage of the plane going into it. Facts don't matter once the conclusion is already decided in your head.

And that is why most conspiracy theories are met with a healthy amount of skepticism.
 
Can I just say conspiracy theories are almost always weak arguments. You're not working from the evidence to a conclusion. You start with a conclusion and any circumstantial evidence you find that corresponds with that already-chosen conclusion is used. This leads to a skewed reading of the facts by the theorist who ends up with "theories" that have huge holes. When asked to explain those holes, they blame "they" (the government, the mob, the corporation, the man, etc.) for covering it up.

A journalist follows the story from where the facts lead. For example a journalist would research the rape charges against Assange. Who are the women who did it? What evidence do they have? Why is the Swedish government interested in pursuit? Is there DNA? Why would progressive feminists falsify something like this?

A conspiracy theorist assumes Assange is a hero and all the governments of the world are evil. So, he was arrested after a new batch of Wikileaks. That proves he is being set up by the government. Case closed, the Swedish, British, and American governments are evil and in cahoots to kill Assange.

That is not really substantiated by anything in the case against him. But it sure does make for a compelling fantasy. It's like those who think the Pentagon was hit by a missile on 9/11 when we have actual footage of the plane going into it. Facts don't matter once the conclusion is already decided in your head.

And that is why most conspiracy theories are met with a healthy amount of skepticism.

Where have I done any of what you just posted? I've done almost the complete opposite in literally every single instance of criticism you're making. Whether it's criticism of me, (which if it is, is completely inaccurate) or in general of the cliched, stereotypical paranoid crazy conspiracy nutjob, I...don't see where you're going with this, especially when you say conspiracy theories are weak arguments and are rightfully met with a lot of skepticism and in the same breath you talk about "fantasies" people have in explaining the events on 9/11. News flash folks, no matter what you believe happened on 9/11, you are choosing to believe in a conspiracy theory. Think about that for a second.

You're just beating around the bush with this constantly regurgitated argument of crazy conspiracy theorists and everyone who not just believes in a different world view than you, but simply acknowledges there may be a chance that it's not what it seems, falls into the same category of a complete loon. Hey, you may be right on with those accusations with a lot of people who just take off on wild tangents about things like a lizard people bloodline from another dimension running through our government in disguise, but not me.
 
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Wikileaks' Embarrassing Revelations

Last week, the whistle-blower website Wikileaks released more than 250,000 pages of sensitive diplomatic notes, cables, and information from the United States government. Here is some of the information included in the mountain of documents:

  • In 2008, Nicolas Sarkozy gave everyone else iPods for Christmas, but U.S. diplomats received candles
  • Kim Jong-il is registered with the Writers Guild of America under the pseudonym "Roland Emmerich"
  • Rahm Emanuel brushes his teeth if he eats so much as a snack
  • Since the first day of his tenure, U.K. prime minister David Cameron has lobbied the Queen to knight Spacemen 3 as a band
  • Threats and aid offers equally ineffective in forcing Vladimir Putin to put a shirt on during diplomatic negotiations
  • Ahmadinejad has a closet with, like, 200 of those jackets
  • The majority of diplomatic relations with Israel still go through comatose former prime minister Ariel Sharon
  • U.S. diplomatic privacy measures are terrible

Source: Onion
 

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