Do You Believe In Evolution?

[Carcharodon]

The problem with this entire debate is that the distribution of knowledge on the subject is woefully uneven. You have one polar extreme (MovieFan, who just makes **** up and displays a blatant lack of any scientific education), and then the other (like Bill, whose arguments are almost always based in solid scientific principles). In the middle you have people who are either for or against, but even the proponents of evolution in this thread tend to be incorrect in many of their arguments.

What you typically have, then, is a debate primarily between the most vocal polar end (MovieFan) and the proponent middle, a debate riddled with errors, misinformation and at times blatant, frustrating ********.

The whole thing is crap. I should have realized this a loooong time ago. I'm glad I took a step back from this thread, because in the past I would have spent WAY too much time trying to impart upon MovieFan knowledge that took years to achieve myself, knowledge that he has no interest in gaining.

So...what is the point anymore?

 

[squeekness]

I thought the point of this thread was to simply take in a range of views, not to solve the issue itself.

 

[Carcharodon]

I thought the point of this thread was to simply take in a range of views, not to solve the issue itself.

When you saw the title of this thread, what did you think was going to happen? Did you honestly think it would stay true to the original intent?

I've got some magic beans to sell you!

Digging the avatar, btw. t:

 

[squeekness]

When you saw the title of this thread, what did you think was going to happen? Did you honestly think it would stay true to the original intent?

I've got some magic beans to sell you!

Digging the avatar, btw. t:

Thanks!

And no, I am not surprised we got derailed a little bit, but it hasn't been as bad as it might have been. The fact is a discussion about the pros and cons of Creationsim is going to branch into Christianity sooner or later.

 

[Danalys]

i think some people should read this http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp
i've seen so many of these so many times. repeated even tho corrected, but maybe they'll take the word of christians about these things.

 

[Bubonic]

For thousands of years, people everywhere have had many questions on their minds. One of the biggest has always been, "What is my purpose? Do I have a role to serve, in the greater scheme of things?" Some people find meaning in helping the poor (which all who can should), expressing love to friends and family...but in the end, we're faced with the fact that our lives are temporary.

Many people (myself included) often wonder, "Is this all there is? Am I meant for nothing beyond this life? What will happen to me when my time is done here?" Folks want to know if there's any real reason to hope for something better than our mortal lives...and the underlying answer provided by evolution is, "No, there isn't. When you die, you'll simply be replaced, and the universe will continue indefinitely." That kind of thing devalues each and every human life drastically, and many choose to resist it.

By comparison, the answer provided by Christianity is, "Yes, you have a unique purpose to serve. You were created by God to bring glory and honor to His kingdom. If you'll repent of your sin, and accept Christ's payment in your stead, you'll have nothing to fear in God's judgment. You'll be saved for your faith in Christ, and you'll live forever with God for eternity."

Yes, live a life of servitude and ignorance in the name of a grandiose myth. Feel guilty for your human weaknesses your entire life. Take solace in the fact that you always have a crutch to lean on.
What a meaningful way to live.

Just because I believe in scientific fact and that I don't think there is anything waiting for me in the afterlife doesn't mean I am miserable now, or that I am some devilish person either.

The more I discover about the mechanisms of life, the more awestruck I become with the beauty of it, and the more I try to live my life to the fullest instead of waiting to die first in order for the payoff to come.

Religious institutions are meant to keep people in line while other institutions make people's lives miserable. They fill your head up with BS sayings like the meek will inherit the earth and help you justify your own miserable existence and keep you from striving for something better.

 

[Magenta666]

i dont really understand the need for a God in the first place

^^^
our avatars match

 

[Bubonic]

Yours is much nicer then mine though.

Well, the need for God is built into you at a young age before you can even form your own opinion.

Your told he can hear your every thought, and he created everything, and he'll save you from this life and all these things... So a need is created.

Kind of like an overprotective parent who creates a need for themselves in their child, who pounds into their heads that without them they'll fail... Very psychologically damaging for some people.

At least religion does breed some healthy behaviour and love of thy neighbours and such, although there are many negative side effects to it.

 

[chaseter]

The problem with this entire debate is that the distribution of knowledge on the subject is woefully uneven. You have one polar extreme (MovieFan, who just makes **** up and displays a blatant lack of any scientific education), and then the other (like Bill, whose arguments are almost always based in solid scientific principles). In the middle you have people who are either for or against, but even the proponents of evolution in this thread tend to be incorrect in many of their arguments.

What you typically have, then, is a debate primarily between the most vocal polar end (MovieFan) and the proponent middle, a debate riddled with errors, misinformation and at times blatant, frustrating ********.

The whole thing is crap. I should have realized this a loooong time ago. I'm glad I took a step back from this thread, because in the past I would have spent WAY too much time trying to impart upon MovieFan knowledge that took years to achieve myself, knowledge that he has no interest in gaining.

So...what is the point anymore?

What are you so angry about? What arguments from the middle are wrong in here?

This just furthers my point that the reason for intolerance in this world is because of a lack of higher education and a failing k-12 school system riddled with errors.

 

[chaseter]

You're forgetting that Baylor and BYU are accredited universities.

Yeah I don't count those as proper schools to go to for life sciences. If you want to major in theology...go for it!

 

[Franklin Richards]

Baylor is one of the top medical schools in the nation. What are you talking about?

 

[chaseter]

Baylor is one of the top medical schools in the nation. What are you talking about?

Medical school =/= undergrad. You don't delve into basic biological principles in medical school.

I don't know if they teach evolutionary theory there or not but I do know a University here in my town that only teaches creationism and the doctors and professors I have had and worked for warned me that someone's chances of getting into med. school decrease greatly if they have professors that skip evolution because so many things in a person's body has stemmed from archea and other bacteria, like the mitochondria for example.

 

[Franklin Richards]

I don't know about that. But take if from an atheist, Chase.


Baylor is a good school.

 

[chaseter]

I don't know about that. But take if from an atheist, Chase.


Baylor is a good school.

I know Baylor has a great medical school, I applied there, but I was warned that religious based schools are not good at fostering scientific careers. And you can see why if someone like Moviefan was a prof.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

Yes, live a life of servitude...

Servitude is defined as "slavery", "bondage", and "compulsory service as a punishment for criminals". That's not what Christianity is about at all. In Luke 4, Jesus said, "The spirit of the Lord is upon Me, for He has annointed Me to announce pardon for prisoners...to set the burdened and battered free." Clearly, bondage and slavery are not on God's "approval list". Scripture details such things as happening in a historical context, but that doesn't mean God's in favor of it.

...and ignorance...

I really don't think you want to start with the whole "ignorance" angle again. That term is defined as "a lack of knowledge", and while I may be no science expert, I know enough about common sense to tell when a principle doesn't add up spiritually.

Feel guilty for your human weaknesses your entire life.

On the contrary. Scripture explicitly says, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1). It's because of Jesus' sacrifice that Christians can relax, knowing their eternal fate is secured. That doesn't mean we're supposed to be led by our whims, but rather we can take control over our weaknesses through faith. We don't avoid things like strip clubs, premarital sex, illegal drugs, or public drunkeness out of guilt. We choose not to engage in those activities out of reverence and love for Christ.

Take solace in the fact that you always have a crutch to lean on.

God wants us to trust and lean on Him, but He also expects us to take responsibility for our own actions and mistakes. He knows people don't have the strength to completely avoid sin on their own; the more we trust in Him, the more He helps us to live a Spirit-filled life.

 

[Majic Walrus]

For thousands of years, people everywhere have had many questions on their minds. One of the biggest has always been, "What is my purpose? Do I have a role to serve, in the greater scheme of things?" Some people find meaning in helping the poor (which all who can should), expressing love to friends and family...but in the end, we're faced with the fact that our lives are temporary.

Many people (myself included) often wonder, "Is this all there is? Am I meant for nothing beyond this life? What will happen to me when my time is done here?" Folks want to know if there's any real reason to hope for something better than our mortal lives...and the underlying answer provided by evolution is, "No, there isn't. When you die, you'll simply be replaced, and the universe will continue indefinitely." That kind of thing devalues each and every human life drastically, and many choose to resist it.

By comparison, the answer provided by Christianity is, "Yes, you have a unique purpose to serve. You were created by God to bring glory and honor to His kingdom. If you'll repent of your sin, and accept Christ's payment in your stead, you'll have nothing to fear in God's judgment. You'll be saved for your faith in Christ, and you'll live forever with God for eternity."

BS. It makes human life actually very valuable. Not some whim of some creator somewhere.

It means that we are part of a huge universe and through millions of years of specific evolution we are here. Humans. Kings of the world. And we want to advance intellectually and physically constantly "pushing the envelope" so to speak. Making each day count because that's all we've ****ing got. Making each decision the wise choice because we know that there's no do-overs. God's not going to take us in to happy-fun-time land when we die.

It give us the chance to leave a lasting legacy for generations. To make something of ourselves because that's who we are and that's what we want to do. It allows us the chance to take each moment in to the fullest and know that we don't have forever. We don't get to sing praises to the Almighty forever. We know that this is our one chance to be happy and we're going to mother****ing take it.

Meanwhile Christianity promises life eternal. So what you're a loser on Earth, you get to go to Heaven. So what you're meek, you'll inherit the Earth. So what if someone dies, there's no tears in heaven. Christianity promises that while human life (or a spirit/soul so to speak) is valuable Earthly existence isn't.

And that's the point I mean to make. I know that there's no second chances, I know that there's no such thing as total redemption, I know that there is an end of the road.

You know that anytime you mess up God will just forgive you and wash away your sins, you know that you get to go to Heaven no matter how much of an ass you are on Earth, and you know that you get to live forever and ever happy and joyful.

So you tell me, honestly, who do you think is going to work harder in the here and now to be happy and make good choices and to bring value to human life?

 

[squeekness]

********. It makes human life actually valuable. Not some whim of some creator somewhere.

It means that we are part of a huge universe and through millions of years of specific evolution we are here. Humans. Kings of the world. And we want to advance intellectually and physically constantly "pushing the envelope" so to speak. Making each day count because that's all we've ****ing got. Making each decision the wise choice because we know that there's no do-overs. God's not going to take us in to happy-fun-time land when we die.

It give us the chance to leave a lasting legacy for generations. To make something of ourselves because that's who we are and that's what we want to do. It allows us the chance to take each moment in to the fullest and know that we don't have forever. We don't get to sing praises to the Almighty forever. We know that this is our one chance to be happy and we're going to mother****ing take it.

Meanwhile Christianity promises life eternal. So what you're a loser on Earth, you get to go to Heaven. So what you're meek, you'll inherit the Earth. So what if someone dies, there's no tears in heaven. Christianity promises that while human life (or a spirit/soul so to speak) is valuable Earthly existence isn't.

And that's the point I mean to make. I know that there's no second chances, I know that there's no such thing as total redemption, I know that there is an end of the road.

You know that anytime you mess up God will just forgive you and wash away your sins, you know that you get to go to Heaven no matter how much of an ass you are on Earth, and you know that you get to live forever and ever happy and joyful.

So you tell me, honestly, who do you think is going to work harder in the here and now to be happy and make good choices and to bring value to human life?

A Christain will also work hard here and now because it is our joy to bring hope and joy to as many people as we can touch. It isn't supposed to be all about ourselves, it's supposed to be about us reaching out to others. We cannot be Christians all alone. So we do work hard here and now because we too understand that this is our one shot at life as well. Our enterance into Heaven is not garunteed and we don't --or shouldn't -- take it for granted.

 

[Carcharodon]

What are you so angry about? What arguments from the middle are wrong in here?

I'm not angry.

The fact is that there are common misconceptions about evolution that carry over to everybody's arguments. I'm not going to deconstruct every single one, because I have neither the time nor the patience.

Most of the arguments have been fine. I was just highlighting a general trend that I see and HAVE seen.

 

[Darren Daring]

Sometimes, doing the harder thing can be more rewarding in the long run.

You're missing the point.

 

[squeekness]

You're missing the point.

Which was....?

 

[Darren Daring]

Which was....?

That I'm not saying Christianity is easy, I'm saying he doesn't' make any sense.

 

[squeekness]

That I'm not saying Christianity is easy, I'm saying he doesn't' make any sense.

ah, okay.

 

[Bill]

No, I don't believe in it since the Bible already predicted thousands of years prior to the birth of the man that people credit with the idea that men would come to believe that they came from animals, and even predicted that they would see God's creation as "evidence" of the lie that those chose to believe rather than what it was.

I don't believe that a painting, or a car, which is obviously far too complex to have simply got there by random chance with no creator didn't have one simply because I can not currently see that creator, hence it'd be even less rational to think that something infinitely more complex, such as the human circulatory system, or the planet, or the universe...did.

First of all, no one who subscribes to evolution believes that life arrived by random chance. Biochemistry is not chance, and it certainly leads to complex structures.

When people make this particular argument, they take what life looks like today as what had to be formed then. But the cells of today are the product of billions of years of evolution. The first life was far simpler.

Not really, it's more of mankinds way of glorifying itself. It's easier for many to believe that there isn't a higher power that they should humble themselves to so that they can just do whatever they feel like doing. Evolution is mankinds way of denying its creator and saying that it doesn't need a higher power to get here, and to grow into a stronger, better organism, we can do it all by ourselves, in other words, mankinds way of glorifying...makind. It's a way for people to deny what their creator has done for them and be deemed by society as "rational" for it.
It's glorifying something alright, but not rational thought and evidentialism nearly to the extent that those subscribe to the idea would like to think. It's a far better example of the arrogance of mankind than its brilliance.

Evolution does not deny a creator. Evolution does not propose how life began. It could have began with a creator, as far as Evolution is concerned; although the evidence points against it. Evolution is only concerned with life once it began. Before that, nothing biologic evolved. After that, it did.

There are many Christians and Christian scientists who happily accept Evolution as the most valid explanation for biologic diversity. It is, after all, just that.

 

[Bill]

The problem with this entire debate is that the distribution of knowledge on the subject is woefully uneven. You have one polar extreme (MovieFan, who just makes **** up and displays a blatant lack of any scientific education), and then the other (like Bill, whose arguments are almost always based in solid scientific principles). In the middle you have people who are either for or against, but even the proponents of evolution in this thread tend to be incorrect in many of their arguments.

What you typically have, then, is a debate primarily between the most vocal polar end (MovieFan) and the proponent middle, a debate riddled with errors, misinformation and at times blatant, frustrating ********.

The whole thing is crap. I should have realized this a loooong time ago. I'm glad I took a step back from this thread, because in the past I would have spent WAY too much time trying to impart upon MovieFan knowledge that took years to achieve myself, knowledge that he has no interest in gaining.

So...what is the point anymore?

I don't really do it for Moviefan, he's pretty much a lost cause. I do it for those who may have seen or used those arguments, and they might actually want to learn what evolution and science really means instead of what Creationists misrepresent to lend credence to their own failed arguments. And I do it for myself. I like reading about it, and I get rusty with my knowledge if I am not forced to read up on it from time to time.

I understand why people like Moviefan may not want to accept Evolution. What I find ironic is that someone who claims to accept the "ultimate truth" would find it so easy to believe blatant lies or misrepresentations.

 

[Metamorpho1977]

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