Do you still consider the TV shows canon?

[metaphysician]

I think one problem is people here assuming that there are two options:

1. A given show didn't happen. Nothing in it is relevant to the MCU at all.

2. A given show did happen. Everything in it happened exactly as is in the MCU.

There is a third option, and that option is almost certainly the one Marvel Studios is going to use: "The stuff we want to reuse from a given show will get reused, and any parts we don't want to reuse will be abandoned. Stuff is canon or not canon to whatever extent we wish." Everything is broad strokes canon at most.

Which is to say, Marvel Studios bringing back Cox and Donofrio playing recognizable versions of Daredevil and Kingpin, does not mean they are forced to keep every specific event and relationship from the Netflix DD show. They are perfectly free to go "Season 1 happened broadly as it did, but certain characters didn't die in it", or "Season 2, the Punisher stuff happened mostly as is, but the Elektra storyline didn't happen at all".

 

[psylockolussus]

I hope Marvel Studios decrease the number of shows they are pumping out every year as someone who watches everything they've released. Well I don't watch the documentaries and would probably start skipping the cartoons neXt year eXcept for X-Men '97.

The number of shows that came out in pre Disney+ era was 12, starting from Aos to Helstrom. 14, if we add the foX shows. Marvel Studios is already at their 7th live action show and its only year 2. Imagine how many Xeries have been released by the time Secret Wars is released in 2026.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

apparently there is a really old interview with Kevin Feige where he says that the Netflix shows, despite how far they are connection-wise with the movies, are still in the same continuity as them

 

[Originalavenger]

I like more Disney+ shows but I’m m starting to think they are getting a little crazy pumping them out so fast!! They might want to slow down at n the movies….just a little bit!!

 

[psylockolussus]

They are kinda slowing down with the movies if we consider that we are getting 3 movies this year and 3 again neXt year. 2021 still has the record for most mcu movies released in the same year.

On the TV side, we got more shows last year than this year.

But I'd like to see them just do 2 live action shows per year. While the cartoons could just be their own thing.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

While I think it's annoying that the Netflix shows weren't explicitly referenced, especially when they first aired, I think there's a difference between not referencing them and them "not existing".

Now that Daredevil and Kingpin are back, and played by the same actors, I see no reason not to assume the Netflix shows did happen, just under the radar and in a way that got lost amidst all the other crazy stuff happening in the MCU.

Sure, if a subsequent show or movie explicitly contradicts that (like, say, having Daredevil meet Iron Fist and the two not knowing each other, or re-doing Luke Cage's origins) then I'd be forced to accept that it's two separate things but I don't think that's mandatory right now, nor should it be.

It's like with Venom. It really annoyed me that Tom Hardy's Eddie Brock had to be magically transported from one dimension to another. Why can't him and his movies just take place in San Francisco, adjacent to the MCU but not slavishly beholden to it? Instead, the only way for him and Tom Holland to meet is by stepping through a tear in the fabric of reality (and they didn't even do that!) and that just seems needlessly complicated to me. Not everything needs to be multiverse shenanigans; bring back the Netflix actors, or recast them, but there's not need to wash away everything that happened in their shows.

I agree, I think Venom should have been established as being part of the MCU (universe) while still not being in the MCU (franchise), just like the Netflix shows. I brought this up a long time ago, way before No Way Home came out and the line in the first Venom movie that wouldn't make it possible was Eddie mocking the Life Foundation about aliens, when aliens have been known about publicly since 2012 in the MCU universe.

But that was just a throwaway line in the movie to me, that was my response. They didn't focus on the disbelief that much at all.

 

[psylockolussus]

Its all connected because of the actors in the same role.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Its all connected because of the actors in the same role.

Yup, this is the easiest way to look at it.

Casual fans who watched Daredevil in 2015 aren't gonna be wondering if that was the same character in 2021. They see the same actor portraying the same character and will understandably interpret the situation as that being the same exact character.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

I think one problem is people here assuming that there are two options:

1. A given show didn't happen. Nothing in it is relevant to the MCU at all.

2. A given show did happen. Everything in it happened exactly as is in the MCU.

There is a third option, and that option is almost certainly the one Marvel Studios is going to use: "The stuff we want to reuse from a given show will get reused, and any parts we don't want to reuse will be abandoned. Stuff is canon or not canon to whatever extent we wish." Everything is broad strokes canon at most.

Which is to say, Marvel Studios bringing back Cox and Donofrio playing recognizable versions of Daredevil and Kingpin, does not mean they are forced to keep every specific event and relationship from the Netflix DD show. They are perfectly free to go "Season 1 happened broadly as it did, but certain characters didn't die in it", or "Season 2, the Punisher stuff happened mostly as is, but the Elektra storyline didn't happen at all".

Keeping "parts of something as canon" just means it's non-canon but you're incorporating story elements into the new canon. It's a pretty binary thing. If Disney reveals in Born Again that Daredevil's history matches the Netflix show exactly with the exception of the fact that, say, he never met Electra yet, then that means the Daredevil series would be non-canon. There's no rule that two separate continuities have to be radically different. Just that they are different in some way.

 

[BarryAllen]

I think Luke Cage and Iron Fist are going to get hard-rebooted whenever they get brought into the MCU, like Fantastic Four and X-Men.

There's plenty of quotes from Fiege going years back about wanting to do something with both characters, and I think there's probably a reason we haven't heard any news regarding their Netflix counterparts. They had some okay moments, but they weren't the versions of Cage and Fist that people read about in the comics for years.

Certainly would be less baggage if they are able to wipe the slate clean and start completely fresh.

 

[psylockolussus]

I feel like there has been too many shows to keep track of every single thing. I feel like the more shows we get, chances are, there will be a divide between feature films/Disney+ originals.

At least with feature films, even when Marvel Studios hits their 50th theaterical feature film in the neXt 10 years, its easier to catch up to those, since each of those films can be done in 1 sitting.

I don't think I can watch Loki season 1, Ms. Marvel, Falcon and the winter Soldier, WandaVision, She Hulk, etc. in 1 sitting, regardless of their quality.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

There was a story in Deadline yesterday where the Netflix Daredevil showrunner is calling the Disney + reboot a scam to avoid paying the partial rights owners of the Cox Daredevil and D'Onofrio Kingpin.

Deadline.com

Which in its way confirms what a writer in the Star Trek family once posted that due to a previous strike settlement that reusing characters whose first appearance was on live action TV, new or adapted from other media, gave that TV writer some ownership rights. In effect if it is canon, then those previous TV writers are owned a cut as the creator of the live action media character. Hence you will never see a Chloe Bennett or any Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. character again except Phil Coulson because the cancelled Whedon's will get a cut.

 

[psylockolussus]

I could live without any characters from Agents of Shield. Those characters should never come back imo.

 

[TheVileOne]

There was a story in Deadline yesterday where the Netflix Daredevil showrunner is calling the Disney + reboot a scam to avoid paying the partial rights owners of the Cox Daredevil and D'Onofrio Kingpin.

Deadline.com

Which in its way confirms what a writer in the Star Trek family once posted that due to a previous strike settlement that reusing characters whose first appearance was on live action TV, new or adapted from other media, gave that TV writer some ownership rights. In effect if it is canon, then those previous TV writers are owned a cut as the creator of the live action media character. Hence you will never see a Chloe Bennett or any Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. character again except Phil Coulson because the cancelled Whedon's will get a cut.

That's not quite what Steven DeKnight said.

"You have to understand Disney’s history of slightly changing a show’s title, retaining the main cast, but calling it a new show or a reboot to avoid bumping the crew’s pay. Hope that helps clarify what I was referring to."

I think you can see it more with Netflix's CG Masters of the Universe. The show was a 26 episode order. Yet Netflix splits up all the episodes they order as three seasons, and they still avoid giving the cast and crew raises. Even though it's "three" seasons. It's really not. It's really one season of a 26 episode order. They simply break it up into three.

 

[psylockolussus]

Ideally a show/TV or streaming series would be a good format to flesh out characters and eXplore things that wouldn't be featured in a film. But like with Marvel Television live action shows era, Marvel Studios' time so far with their streaming shows have been far from ideal. And it looks like to be affecting the films (The Marvels' low tracking at the boX office).

I'd rather see them lose these shows, than completely lose their momentum in the cinemas. Marvel Studios was doing fine with theaterical films. For some reason, I knew these shows weren't a good idea at all and I am a firm believer of less is more.

 

[mace1]

Marvel Officially Canonizes 6 Netflix Shows on New MCU Timeline

The debate is over, as Netflix's Marvel offerings join the official MCU timeline.

thedirect.com

 

[psylockolussus]

Get those eXtra streams I guess!

But like i said before, it was already connected anyway, because they brought back certain actors in the same role. Time will tell, if they will honor anyone else specifically from Jessica Jones, Iron Fist, Luke Cage, The Punisher and The Defenders - by hiring them for another appearance either a series/film.

Anyway I've seen all the NetfliX Marvel shows when they first aired, so I have no plan to watch a 12 to 13 hour Tv series with 13 episodes after watching a MCU film... or in Civil War's case, watch Iron Fist/Defenders before heading to Civil War...

 

[Spider-Fan]

The MCU has too much content, so I am never really gonna do a Timeline marathon ever at this point. Just watch whatever I am in the mood for.

 

[Drizzle]

The MCU has too much content, so I am never really gonna do a Timeline marathon ever at this point. Just watch whatever I am in the mood for.

The last time I attempted one was maybe a year and a half ago, and it really only included the movies and Disney+ MCU shows. Also by "attempt", I mean play them in the background while I got work done. As someone who's kept up with and watched every single MCU related project over the past 15+ years, I can't even begin to wrap my head around a full blown marathon that includes all of the movies and all of the shows because when you really boil it down, everything is either firmly MCU or MCU-adjacent with the multiverse. That means also including all of the pre-Iron Man movies and shows plus the Fox and Sony movies, etc. I would really only recommend that kind of a "Every Marvel Project Ever Made" marathon if you're a journalist getting paid to do it.

 

[OrbOfConfusion]

The last time I attempted one was maybe a year and a half ago, and it really only included the movies and Disney+ MCU shows. Also by "attempt", I mean play them in the background while I got work done. As someone who's kept up with and watched every single MCU related project over the past 15+ years, I can't even begin to wrap my head around a full blown marathon that includes all of the movies and all of the shows because when you really boil it down, everything is either firmly MCU or MCU-adjacent with the multiverse. That means also including all of the pre-Iron Man movies and shows plus the Fox and Sony movies, etc. I would really only recommend that kind of a "Every Marvel Project Ever Made" marathon if you're a journalist getting paid to do it.

You need to pay me a lot of money to sit through Iron Fist or Jessica Jones Season 2 again...

 

[Drizzle]

You need to pay me a lot of money to sit through Iron Fist or Jessica Jones Season 2 again...

In hindsight it's hilarious but when I first saw the speed effect they used for Whizzer in JJ S2 I pretty knew that the Marvel Netflix days were done.

 

[psylockolussus]

I did a movie marathon of MCU movies (phase 1 to 3) in 2020. I think it took me a month to finish it and it was fun. I maybewould try it again, with the post-2020 movies before or after Secret Wars. But I don't think I'd include any of the shows for a MCU marathon.

 

[mace1]

Netflix Daredevil Series Canon With MCU


Here some comments from the comment section

@Jacksabbath44 quote-
Kingpin's sudden powers are ridiculously easy to explain! and it makes total sense for him, he's going to be the real Powerbroker! he was pulling the strings from NY to Madripoor, took some version of the super soldier serum and now he got incredible stamina and strength, it's that simple!


@delawarebratboi quote-
The Netflix shows were always written to be part of the MCU so it's not like there's much in the way of canon issues.


@likeluptid quote-
The thing that is really messing me up for many months now is John Campea claims that Wilson Fisk is different in Hawkeye and Echo. I can't figure out what it is Campea is speaking of. I've watched all 3 seasons of Daredevil AGAIN, then watched Hawkeye a 3rd time, and I don't get it. I don't know what Campea is speaking of. The only thing Fisk did in Hawkeye that he wasn't seen doing in Daredevil is wear a Hawaiian shirt that's very similar, if not the same, that he wore in the comic book. A shirt doesn't make a person different. What, then, can Campea possibly be referring to? Why does he think that Hawkeye's Fisk is different from Daredevil's Fisk? Is it because he has never spoken of Echo?


@matthewk4912 quote-
The shows were always official canon, but due to studio politics, Marvel Studios USED to ignore TV shows under Loeb's leadership. That includes Runaways and Agents of SHIELD (yes, even when Fury and Maria Hill made cameos). The diehard fans of these shows ignore this fact. It's only with Echo that Marvel Studios has basically reaffirmed that the Netflix shows are part of the same universe.

@randalsspinkle quote-
Brad Winderbaum explicitly said that the Netflix series are canon to the Sacred Timeline. Why do we have to go through this whole show every single time? Feige said the shows were canon back in the build up to Infinity War, publicly. These things have been stated multiple times by Feige, Winderbaum, Marvel in general. All of the quotes of "this isn't the same Daredevil/Kingpin" were in regards to the tone used in those appearances, not the physical character. Thor in Thor 1 and Thor in Love and Thunder are the same person, even though Love and Thunder has a "funnier" Thor than Thor 1. Likewise, 2015 Matt and She-Hulk Matt are the same person, even though She-Hulk has a funnier Matt than the OG series. The shows were never not Canon. They were just on a smaller scale, so they wouldn't be seen in larger scale stories because they were not relevant at the time.

@Jacksabbath44 quote-
the funny thing is that happens way more often in comics, timelines and tone aren't that strict

@benjaminshabu4406 quote-
The Shows were always technically canon. A major plot point of Daredevil season one is how King Pin and some of the other villains like Madam Gao took advantage of the damage from the battle of New York to purchase properties on a cheap...and also Jessica Jones makes several references to the Avengers...the shows have always been a peripheral addendum to the MCU, it's much like how comics are, different artists and writers bring different tones but they exist all in one universe i.e. earth 616 etc.
_____________________________________
@JosipDodig quote-
Cox literally said it wasn't a season 4 but a reboot. They didn't even plan on having Foggy and Karen untill now. It's pretty clear that they changed direction recently. This was never meant to be a continuation of the Netflix series.
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@mistercard3599 quote-
It was always canon, the whole creation of the Netflix Marvel series was supposed to be canon, same with AoS. It’s only hardcore weirdos who have a problem with the idea

@matthewk4912 quote-
Yes, it was always canon, but due to studio politics, the creative team at Marvel Studios ignored the Marvel TV side that was under Loeb and not Feige. Marvel TV has since been folded into Marvel Studios, so now everything is under the same umbrella.
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@bloodzerox20 quote-
You can tell John hates the fact that Netflix Marvel is now MCU Canon 😂
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@craigburkey269 quote-
The Netflix shows were always intended to be canon with MCU, along with Agents Of Shield, Agent Carter and Inhumans, yes there was a big power struggle a Marvel and the plan changed, Netflix stopped paying the license fee in favour of Thier own IP and Disney started Disney+

 

[mace1]

Here is another point of view john mention in his last video about the netflix mcu
Which Parts Of Netflix's Daredevil Universe Will Marvel Keep And Throw Away

Comments below that disagree .

@iBloodyGuyonce quote-
I love John acting like they were 100% not the same characters despite that Marvel never said that and he was the primary advocate for that position lol.

@isaiahcamble quote-
I think daredevil, Jessica, & Punisher stuff will remain all cannon untouched
Luke cage i think it just depends if Mike Coulter ever becomes available one of the busiest people in the market currently. Will have minor tweaks.
Iron fist is tricky, The show and the characters with Tied to him will be the one i imagine to have the most change out of any characters. I never had a issue with finn jones its just outside of collen wang his interactions everyone else made him very unlikable with writing & to some degree Finns portrayal. But if disney decided to to do a revival of the series trust me ill be the 1st to hit play

@lordofninjas1 quote-
the Netflix stuff (and all the pre-Disney Plus MCU stuff) are canon and have always been canon. You're understandings of what was said surrounding Born Again lead you to believe that it originally wasn't going to be the Netflix Daredevil whereas my understandings of what was said lead me to believe that it was intended to be the same one, however you've been trying to state your understanding of it (basically your opinion) as though it was fact when it was only your opinion.
I feel every single thing that happened in the Netflix shows is canon and will be brought over. Sure some actors may be different or some things may not get referenced or whatever, but contrary to popular belief that has no bearing on whether something is canon or not. They may recast Danny Rand, but that in no way indicates the events of the Iron Fist show and everything Iron Fist did in the Netflix stuff never happened in the Sacred Timeline, much in the same way that recasting Hulk or War Machine or any of the other recasts we've had in the MCU didn't suddenly make everything they did before non-canon.
All this to say, every storyline and plot point and everything will have happened and will be the building blocks for the characters going forward, the only differences may be some of the actors for the roles or some characters not showing up as often or whatever, but that doesn't indicate non-canon.

 

[mace1]

Vincent D'Onofrio Addresses Kingpin's Survival From Echo's Attack in Hawkeye Finale

Vincent D'Onofrio has some good news for the fans left bewildered by Kingpin's survival after the Hawkeye finale.

Vincent D'Onofrio Reveals Why Marvel Finally Made Netflix's Daredevil Series Canon

Vincent D'Onofrio Reveals Why Marvel Finally Made Netflix's Daredevil Series Canon
Vincent D'Onofrio discusses how Daredevil: Born Again brought the Defenders' saga into the MCU canon and provides an update on Kingpin's fate.

Kingpin's actor Vincent D'Onofrio discusses Marvel integrating Netflix's Defenders saga into the MCU's timeline and hints at Wilson Fisk's upcoming character arc in Daredevil: Born Again.

Marvel recently updated the official MCU timeline on Disney+ to include characters and story elements from Netflix's Defenders saga, often referred to by the fans as the "Defendersverse" or "Defenders Saga." That includes Daredevil along with the spinoffs Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, The Punisher, Iron Fist, and The Defenders. Originally understood to be its own standalone universe, D'Onofrio revealed that Marvel Studios initially had no plans to integrate more aspects of Netflix's Daredevil into the MCU canon, focusing solely on Kingpin and Daredevil.

Reports revealed a creative team overhaul led by show-runner Dario Scardapane (known for Netflix's The Punisher) occurred during the production of Daredevil: Born Again after several episodes had been shot, and early test footage had failed to impress Marvel Studios executives. D'Onofrio discussed how the new creative team made the decision to bring aspects of Netflix's Defender's saga into Born Again's narrative by acknowledging the backstory from Daredevil, resulting in Marvel's timeline retcon, with D'Onofrio referring to the saga as a collateral story within the MCU.

D'Onofrio stated,“During our restart of all the creative on Daredevil: Born Again, all the creatives got together and said, ‘Look, this is how we’ve got to do it now,’” D’Onofrio says. “So we are for sure only speaking about it in terms of being directly connected to the original Daredevil, and that’s a great thing. It brings in a lot of cool stories and all the collateral story that happened in those original three seasons.”

Netflix's Defendersverse features hardcore street-level heroes, including Daredevil (Charlie Cox), Jessica Jones (Krysten Ritter), Iron Fist (Finn Jones), Luke Cage (Mike Colter), and guest appearances from Elektra (Elodie Young). The heroes form an Avengers-style alliance in Marvel's Defenders, creating the possibility of returns and storyline callbacks in Daredevil: Born Again, while Jon Bernthal's Punisher has been officially announced to be returning.

Daredevil: Born Again Will Bring More Answers
Regarding Kingpin's fate in Daredevil: Born Again, D'Onofrio remained professionally evasive but added his thoughts on where the story could go after Kingpin's fate in the Disney+ series Echo. After apparently healing from childhood trauma and PTSD through Echo's Choctaw ancestral mind-altering powers, the show leaves Kingpin's mental state ambiguous. A post-credits scene hints at Kingpin's mayoral ambitions, with Daredevil: Born Again set to provide answers and explore the implications for Hell's Kitchen.

D'Onofrio comments, "I don’t think he’s changed; I think he’s enlightened. After everything with Maya, he decides, ‘If I want to be all-powerful, this is what I’m going to do.’” While maintaining professional secrecy about specific details, D'Onofrio went on to express excitement about Daredevil: Born Again's addition of the creative duo of Justin Benson and Aaron Moorhead to the directing team, known for their work on Loki and Moon Knight.

Daredevil: Born Again is currently filming and Echo is currently streaming on Disney+.

Vincent D'Onofrio Reveals Why Marvel Finally Made Netflix's Daredevil Series Canon