Do you still consider the TV shows canon?

[Dark Raven]

Probably not any more so than casting Gemma Chan in Captain Marvel and Eternals. I'd argue reusing actors isn't dramatically different from recasting, so you have Bruce Banner, Howard Stark, and James Rhodes on your list.

I don't know if Howard Stark is really in the same category. Marvel kept using both John Slattery and Dominic Cooper for different time periods instead of sticking to one, and then either de-ageing one or ageing the other. Unless you're talking about Gerard Sanders as Howard Stark in Iron Man 1 who only had a brief cameo?

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Probably not any more so than casting Gemma Chan in Captain Marvel and Eternals. I'd argue reusing actors isn't dramatically different from recasting, so you have Bruce Banner, Howard Stark, and James Rhodes on your list.

I found out about Gemma Chan's two different MCU roles in this very thread

 

[Bayne]

What's a nonsensical standard? I don't know which part of my post you're responding to here.

The part where you claim that Marvel reusing actors from the Netflix show should be considered 'evidence' that they don't want the Netflix stuff to be canon anymore. The entire point of all these other examples is that:

a) what Marvel is doing with these actors is not unusual for hollywood in general and very often has no bearing on 'continuity' whatsoever

and also b) Marvel itself has already done tons of other things that would 'theoretically' be just as confusing or undermining to the continuity as reusing actors without ever once invalidating their own continuity.

Now maybe the netflix stuff will remain in continuity or maybe it won't. I'm honestly more inclined to the latter, personally, but there is absolutely no logical reason to see the reusing of actors as evidence that it won't. Not unless you have a secret source where someone in MS said they reused actors because they don't think the netflix shows count rather than for any one of a million other completely unrelated reasons why they might have chosen to reuse actors.

My argument here is that if Marvel Studios cared to be consistent in acknowledging the events of the Netflix MCU series, they wouldn't taken casting a little more seriously and not cast someone who was already in a series that was supposed to be part of the franchise which could be seen as a contradiction in the narrative.

With, it seems from reading your posts, the implication that this therefore means that Marvel Studios is decanonizing the Netflix shows and the reuse of actors is evidence that this is happening.

Which is still a non-sensical chain of logic because we've already established that Marvel has deliberately chosen inconsistency in a number of different ways between various movies and has never once decanonized one of their movies as result. It is indisputably clear that consistency of actors, visuals and even the facts of the story is not the only priority that Marvel studios is trying to serve in their films and that they do, on occassion, choose to prioritize other things over consistency. Things like actor chemistry. Or story convenience. Or improving the fx. Etc, etc.

Bottom line, the fact that something can be seen as inconsistent cannot be considered proof or evidence of any particular position unless we have some actual source about *why* the inconsistency exists.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

The part where you claim that Marvel reusing actors from the Netflix show should be considered 'evidence' that they don't want the Netflix stuff to be canon anymore. The entire point of all these other examples is that:

a) what Marvel is doing with these actors is not unusual for hollywood in general and very often has no bearing on 'continuity' whatsoever

and also b) Marvel itself has already done tons of other things that would 'theoretically' be just as confusing or undermining to the continuity as reusing actors without ever once invalidating their own continuity.

Now maybe the netflix stuff will remain in continuity or maybe it won't. I'm honestly more inclined to the latter, personally, but there is absolutely no logical reason to see the reusing of actors as evidence that it won't. Not unless you have a secret source where someone in MS said they reused actors because they don't think the netflix shows count rather than for any one of a million other completely unrelated reasons why they might have chosen to reuse actors.



With, it seems from reading your posts, the implication that this therefore means that Marvel Studios is decanonizing the Netflix shows and the reuse of actors is evidence that this is happening.

Which is still a non-sensical chain of logic because we've already established that Marvel has deliberately chosen inconsistency in a number of different ways between various movies and has never once decanonized one of their movies as result. It is indisputably clear that consistency of actors, visuals and even the facts of the story is not the only priority that Marvel studios is trying to serve in their films and that they do, on occassion, choose to prioritize other things over consistency. Things like actor chemistry. Or story convenience. Or improving the fx. Etc, etc.

Bottom line, the fact that something can be seen as inconsistent cannot be considered proof or evidence of any particular position unless we have some actual source about *why* the inconsistency exists.

I see. While I think the MCU and its continuity is hard to compare to any other franchise in the large scope of Hollywood's portfolio, you're right that their handling of actors shouldn't be considered in the argument of whether Netflix MCU is canon to Hollywood MCU. I still think it's a sign of Marvel Studio just largely ignoring some of the television series, but it doesn't de-canonize the latter.

 

[Dark Raven]

I see. While I think the MCU and its continuity is hard to compare to any other franchise in the large scope of Hollywood's portfolio, you're right that their handling of actors shouldn't be considered in the argument of whether Netflix MCU is canon to Hollywood MCU. I still think it's a sign of Marvel Studio just largely ignoring some of the television series, but it doesn't de-canonize the latter.

I don't think it's necessarily a sign that Marvel Studios are ignoring the TV series. It's more that they want to cast the best person for the job regardless of whether they've played a role before.

Studios and producers have done that hundreds of times in different shows or films.

For example:

Star Trek Voyager cast Tim Russ and Robert Duncan McNeil as Tuvok and Tom Paris respectively. However, Star Trek had already used Tim Russ as a terrorist in TNG and in the background on The Undiscovered Country as a bridge crew member of the Excelsor. Robert Duncan McNeil already played a key role of Nicholas Locarno in another TNG episode where a bunch of young cadets (including Wesley Crusher) were careless and resulted in the death of another cadet.

In JAG, Catherine Bell played a naval officer and love interest of Harmon Rabb who was murdered at the end of season 1. At the beginning of season 2 she was cast in the key role of Sarah MacKenzie, a marine officer and potential love interest of Rabb. They continued to reference the murdered naval officer throughout the series and acknowledged Sarah MacKenzie bore an uncanny resemblance to her.

In the Bond films, Charles Gray played Dikko Henderson, an ally of Bond, before coming back 2 films later as Blofeld, his arch enemy. Similarly, Joe Don Baker played Brad Whittaker, the villain of The Living Daylights before coming back as Jack Wade, an ally of Bond's in Goldeneye, also 2 films later.

None of these were saying the previous series or films were ignored. It was just casting whoever they felt most appropriate for the role at the time regardless of whether they had played someone else before.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I don't think it's necessarily a sign that Marvel Studios are ignoring the TV series. It's more that they want to cast the best person for the job regardless of whether they've played a role before.

Studios and producers have done that hundreds of times in different shows or films.

For example:

Star Trek Voyager cast Tim Russ and Robert Duncan McNeil as Tuvok and Tom Paris respectively. However, Star Trek had already used Tim Russ as a terrorist in TNG and in the background on The Undiscovered Country as a bridge crew member of the Excelsor. Robert Duncan McNeil already played a key role of Nicholas Locarno in another TNG episode where a bunch of young cadets (including Wesley Crusher) were careless and resulted in the death of another cadet.

In JAG, Catherine Bell played a naval officer and love interest of Harmon Rabb who was murdered at the end of season 1. At the beginning of season 2 she was cast in the key role of Sarah MacKenzie, a marine officer and potential love interest of Rabb. They continued to reference the murdered naval officer throughout the series and acknowledged Sarah MacKenzie bore an uncanny resemblance to her.

In the Bond films, Charles Gray played Dikko Henderson, an ally of Bond, before coming back 2 films later as Blofeld, his arch enemy. Similarly, Joe Don Baker played Brad Whittaker, the villain of The Living Daylights before coming back as Jack Wade, an ally of Bond's in Goldeneye, also 2 films later.

None of these were saying the previous series or films were ignored. It was just casting whoever they felt most appropriate for the role at the time regardless of whether they had played someone else before.

But the Netflix MCU series has been ignored though. The films never acknowledge the characters or events that ever took place in the television series. I get that it has happened in other franchises but I still feel like the MCU is larger in scope as a continuity in a franchise.

 

[Bayne]

I don't think it's necessarily a sign that Marvel Studios are ignoring the TV series. It's more that they want to cast the best person for the job regardless of whether they've played a role before.

Studios and producers have done that hundreds of times in different shows or films.

For example:

Star Trek Voyager cast Tim Russ and Robert Duncan McNeil as Tuvok and Tom Paris respectively. However, Star Trek had already used Tim Russ as a terrorist in TNG and in the background on The Undiscovered Country as a bridge crew member of the Excelsor. Robert Duncan McNeil already played a key role of Nicholas Locarno in another TNG episode where a bunch of young cadets (including Wesley Crusher) were careless and resulted in the death of another cadet.

In JAG, Catherine Bell played a naval officer and love interest of Harmon Rabb who was murdered at the end of season 1. At the beginning of season 2 she was cast in the key role of Sarah MacKenzie, a marine officer and potential love interest of Rabb. They continued to reference the murdered naval officer throughout the series and acknowledged Sarah MacKenzie bore an uncanny resemblance to her.

In the Bond films, Charles Gray played Dikko Henderson, an ally of Bond, before coming back 2 films later as Blofeld, his arch enemy. Similarly, Joe Don Baker played Brad Whittaker, the villain of The Living Daylights before coming back as Jack Wade, an ally of Bond's in Goldeneye, also 2 films later.

None of these were saying the previous series or films were ignored. It was just casting whoever they felt most appropriate for the role at the time regardless of whether they had played someone else before.

Also, for Star Trek there is Jeffery Combs who appeared on Deep Space Nine, Voyager and Enterprise, all in different roles. More than that, while he only appeared once on Voyager, he played both a one-off character and a major recurring character on Enterprise and on DS9 he played a one-off character and two separate major recurring characters. He even once played both his major recurring characters in the same episode.

And another big example that comes to my mind is Buffy the Vampire slayer, which reused at least three different actors within that series and at least another two who went on to have different roles on the spin-off series Angel.

 

[Spider-Fan]

The TOHO Godzilla films used many of the same actors many times in their films in different roles movie to movie, also.

 

[NotNickFury]

But the Netflix MCU series has been ignored though. The films never acknowledge the characters or events that ever took place in the television series. I get that it has happened in other franchises but I still feel like the MCU is larger in scope as a continuity in a franchise.

Aside from Spider-Man, and even that's a stretch with this one-way street, there'd be no need for any of these heroes to even acknowledge what's happening on the streets of New York. They wouldn't even be a blip on Tony Stark's radar, even with Vision's line in Civil War about the rise of enhanced persons.

 

[Dark Raven]

Also, for Star Trek there is Jeffery Combs who appeared on Deep Space Nine, Voyager and Enterprise, all in different roles. More than that, while he only appeared once on Voyager, he played both a one-off character and a major recurring character on Enterprise and on DS9 he played a one-off character and two separate major recurring characters. He even once played both his major recurring characters in the same episode.

And another big example that comes to my mind is Buffy the Vampire slayer, which reused at least three different actors within that series and at least another two who went on to have different roles on the spin-off series Angel.

Yeah Jeffrey Combs was playing Weyoun (a Vorta) and Brunt (a Ferengi), even in the same episode, "The Dogs of War". The makeup for those aren't easy either, so he must've spent hours in the makeup chair going from one to the other. I assume he filmed all his scenes in one episode as one and then did his scenes as the other and didn't flip flop between them, which would've been crazy. I have heard that fans want Combs to now play Dr Phillip Boyce on Star Trek: Strange New Worlds.

Apparently Combs wanted Brunt and Weyoun to appear in the same scene together, but the logistics didn't work out for that. That's a shame.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Aside from Spider-Man, and even that's a stretch with this one-way street, there'd be no need for any of these heroes to even acknowledge what's happening on the streets of New York. They wouldn't even be a blip on Tony Stark's radar, even with Vision's line in Civil War about the rise of enhanced persons.

That is what the narrative got the viewer to believe, "street level heroes" and all that. In the comics Daredevil has partnered with Spiderman multiple times and both were involved in Civil War. Also considering that Luke Cage's superhuman strength and to a lesser extent Jessica's, I believe they would have and should have blipped on Tony's radar.

 

[Johnny Luska]

I agree, it doesn't make sense that alot of those characters wouldn't have been found by Stark or Strange for example.

They don't exist. The only thing I can see happening is a few of the actors potentially playing the same character in the MCU but with changes made so that they are different in contrast to their Netflix ones. This would be similar to J Jonah Jameson.

I do find it funny that after all these years with zero acknowledgement from the movies that there are people who still think the tv shows are canon or will be. If it were to happen, it wouldve happened a long time ago. It's time to give it up. It's now Marvel Studios and Disney+

 

[Dark Raven]

But the Netflix MCU series has been ignored though. The films never acknowledge the characters or events that ever took place in the television series. I get that it has happened in other franchises but I still feel like the MCU is larger in scope as a continuity in a franchise.

I'm not saying the Netflix series haven't been ignored. They haven't been acknowledged. But whether Marvel casts the same actor in a different role or not isn't in itself evidence that they're brushing it aside, because that's been done so many times in other franchises, even where someone else played a fairly major role.

Another silly example of casting the same person as different characters was Brendan Fehr. He was a regular lab technician character on CSI Miami for several seasons, but then his character was fired. Shortly afterwards he showed up on CSI: NY as a completely different character and suspect. The CSI shows often crossed over, so reusing the same actor was rather dumb.

They did the same thing with NCIS, reusing regular cast members from JAG (from which NCIS was spun off) as different characters.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I'm not saying the Netflix series haven't been ignored. They haven't been acknowledged. But whether Marvel casts the same actor in a different role or not isn't in itself evidence that they're brushing it aside, because that's been done so many times in other franchises, even where someone else played a fairly major role.

Another silly example of casting the same person as different characters was Brendan Fehr. He was a regular lab technician character on CSI Miami for several seasons, but then his character was fired. Shortly afterwards he showed up on CSI: NY as a completely different character and suspect. The CSI shows often crossed over, so reusing the same actor was rather dumb.

They did the same thing with NCIS, reusing regular cast members from JAG (from which NCIS was spun off) as different characters.

We don't see that much of it happen in the MCU movies, though. The two actors we talked about earlier were both in a television series. Besides Gemma Chan I don't think that within the scope of MCU films, we've seen much of that happening.

 

[Dark Raven]

We don't see that much of it happen in the MCU movies, though. The two actors we talked about earlier were both in a television series. Besides Gemma Chan I don't think that within the scope of MCU films, we've seen much of that happening.

Gemma Chan was so hidden in makeup before in Captain Marvel that you couldn't even tell it was her. It was a bit of a wasted role, which is why it's better she's playing Sersi.

Even Karen Gillan could feasibly play another role in the MCU. If she were a human, she'd look so different to Nebula that people may not even be able to tell it's the same person, especially if she spoke in her natural Scottish accent and had her normal cheerful personality.

 

[Bayne]

I've got to say the 'x should have been known in the movies' argument in general tends to make far too many assumptions. If the Netflix shows are part of the MCU, then obviously the Avengers know that Luke Cage, Jessica Jones and Daredevil and the Punisher exist (Iron Fist maybe not). All of them have been all over the news in New York, where the Avengers live.

But that doesn't at all logically lead to the conclusion that any of those characters ever 'should' have been mentioned. There are blatantly obvious reasons why the Avengers would not be interested in ever trying to recruit any of those people, and the idea of them working together by accident would pretty much depend on the Defenders being in the right place at the right time (which is something that would only happen if the writers wanted to go out of their way to make it happen).

Arguably the biggest issue is that some of them maybe should have drawn Avengers attention as a problem to be solved (given how bad their press is), but overall they're generally still more on the level that theoretically can be handled by the police (especially since Luke and Jessica are the only ones with obvious powers and they have public identities and generally cooperate with police), so even that isn't really a reason they 'should' have appeared or been mentioned. The only issue I can't necessarily solve is why didn't Strange detect Iron Fist or all the stuff with the Hand. But then, maybe he did detect Iron Fist and didn't think he was a problem. And maybe the Hand has ways of hiding their activities, since their society has to be just as ancient as the sorcerors.

 

[Dark Raven]

I think Strange detected Iron Fist, saw that he fought like Finn Jones and refused to wear a costume and decided "nah, he's not good enough!"

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

. The only issue I can't necessarily solve is why didn't Strange detect Iron Fist or all the stuff with the Hand. But then, maybe he did detect Iron Fist and didn't think he was a problem. And maybe the Hand has ways of hiding their activities, since their society has to be just as ancient as the sorcerors.

Or maybe if we see him, Dr Strange along with the Avengers as a whole as omnipotent he looked into the future and saw that the Defenders ultimately win and it was the only way out of 14,000,605 chances for it to happen.

But I agree with the theory that like Tony Stark was willing to let the FBI handle the Vulture all those other TV characters working their own friendly neighborhoods while noticed were never brought up to the major leagues so to speak. It would be like arguing that a real life ballplayer at Small State University didn't exist because you never heard the sports talk TV/radio people talk about him being potentially drafted by the pros

And the never mentioned argument is similar to the often asked where were the Avengers during Iron Man 3 with Tony Stark missing and the Iron Patriot suit about to murder the President or how come they didn't jump in to help when Hydra emerged from the shadows for the second time.

 

[TheVileOne]

But the Netflix MCU series has been ignored though. The films never acknowledge the characters or events that ever took place in the television series. I get that it has happened in other franchises but I still feel like the MCU is larger in scope as a continuity in a franchise.

Yeah, even in the past TV or film stuff, nothing has ever really been done like this on this scale in cinema ever before. So really even with the similarities, there's really never been anything quite like this before.

 

[Detective Conan]

After the release of the DD She-Hulk episode, Marvel.com recently has confirmed that the Daredevil that Cox plays in She-Hulk is the same one from the Netflix series therefore making that series canon to the MCU proper, which by extension means the shows by Marvel television(at least the Netflix ones) may also qualify as canon.

‘She-Hulk’: Bringing Matt Murdock into Jen Walter’s Life

 

[psylockolussus]

Hmm I feel like any series that features someone from the tv shows (ABC and NetfliX shows) in the Mcu movie could be considered as "canon". But I think more importantly, it is just going to be your personal choice. Because I doubt Kevin Feige would denounce Marvel shows like Iron Fist, Inhumans, Cloak & Dagger, Helstrom as not canon. They would just ignore those shows, as they have no bearing to the films.

As for the casuals, I think all preD+ shows and D+ shows are still adjacent MCU. Like no casual viewer is going to keep up with every Marvel Studios show. If they do, they are more than a casual viewer.

 

[Originalavenger]

Anytime “other tv show” characters go to a bigger stage it should automatically legitimize the “canon”!! IMO

 

[SirStrangefolk]

But I think more importantly, it is just going to be your personal choice. Because I doubt Kevin Feige would denounce Marvel shows like Iron Fist, Inhumans, Cloak & Dagger, Helstrom as not canon. They would just ignore those shows

This is just my approach to big franchises in general. Once a franchise gets to a certain size there's usually expanded media that mostly go ignored by the main installments (think novels, comics, audio dramas, etc. that expand on a tv show or movie series), as well as installments we'd all like to forget (terrible sequels that retroactively ruin what came before or what have you). So at that point it's best imo to just pick and choose whatever bits you like.

For me that means that some version of most of the shows still happened for the most part until they're directly contradicted. But when inevitably a different version of some character that was on a show shows up it won't bother me.

We don't see that much of it happen in the MCU movies, though. The two actors we talked about earlier were both in a television series. Besides Gemma Chan I don't think that within the scope of MCU films, we've seen much of that happening.

Since this thread is active again, I'll point out that besides Gemma Chan there was also Kenneth Choi playing his own descendant and Michelle Yeoh playing two totally unrelated characters. As well as of course Cumberbatch being both Strange and Dormammu in the same movie.
It hasn't happened as much so far, but this stuff happens all the time in long running tv shows. And it will probably happen again in the MCU. I don't think Marvel will exclude the likes of Kate Mara, Olivia Munn, Justin Theroux, David Bradley, Richard Armitage, Jenna Coleman, Natalie Dormer, Jenna Ortega, Tony Curran, Adewale Akinuoye-Agbaje, Talulah Riley, Danny Pudi, Nathan Fillion, Seth Green, Julian Bleach, Clancy Brown, Matt Damon, Sam Neill, Luke Hemsworth, Ving Rhames, Miley Cyrus, Carrie Coon, Ken Jeong, Yvette Nicole Brown, Melissa McCarthy, etc. from future casting. Nor do I think Josh Brolin having been Thanos will prevent him from returning in Deadpool 3 as Cable.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

This is just my approach to big franchises in general. Once a franchise gets to a certain size there's usually expanded media that mostly go ignored by the main installments (think novels, comics, audio dramas, etc. that expand on a tv show or movie series), as well as installments we'd all like to forget (terrible sequels that retroactively ruin what came before or what have you). So at that point it's best imo to just pick and choose whatever bits you like.

For me that means that some version of most of the shows still happened for the most part until they're directly contradicted. But when inevitably a different version of some character that was on a show shows up it won't bother me.


Since this thread is active again, I'll point out that besides Gemma Chan there was also Kenneth Choi playing his own descendant and Michelle Yeoh playing two totally unrelated characters. As well as of course Cumberbatch being both Strange and Dormammu in the same movie.
It hasn't happened as much so far, but this stuff happens all the time in long running tv shows. And it will probably happen again in the MCU. I don't think Marvel will exclude the likes of Kate Mara, Olivia Munn, Justin Theroux, David Bradley, Richard Armitage, Jenna Coleman, Natalie Dormer, Jenna Ortega, Tony Curran, Adewale Akinuoye-Agbaje, Talulah Riley, Danny Pudi, Nathan Fillion, Seth Green, Julian Bleach, Clancy Brown, Matt Damon, Sam Neill, Luke Hemsworth, Ving Rhames, Miley Cyrus, Carrie Coon, Ken Jeong, Yvette Nicole Brown, Melissa McCarthy, etc. from future casting. Nor do I think Josh Brolin having been Thanos will prevent him from returning in Deadpool 3 as Cable.

I'll have to say in advance that I haven't logged in to post in a very long time, I'm on mobile and I don't remember a whole lot of the discussion in this thread but I wouldn't count Dormammu and Strange being played by the same actor to be an example of continuity error since that was done intently and it was just the actor's voice. I don't know what other discussion has transpired but I have kept up with some of the MCU and I still consider the Netflix MCU shows as canon

 

[SKSpawn]

While I think it's annoying that the Netflix shows weren't explicitly referenced, especially when they first aired, I think there's a difference between not referencing them and them "not existing".

Now that Daredevil and Kingpin are back, and played by the same actors, I see no reason not to assume the Netflix shows did happen, just under the radar and in a way that got lost amidst all the other crazy stuff happening in the MCU.

Sure, if a subsequent show or movie explicitly contradicts that (like, say, having Daredevil meet Iron Fist and the two not knowing each other, or re-doing Luke Cage's origins) then I'd be forced to accept that it's two separate things but I don't think that's mandatory right now, nor should it be.

It's like with Venom. It really annoyed me that Tom Hardy's Eddie Brock had to be magically transported from one dimension to another. Why can't him and his movies just take place in San Francisco, adjacent to the MCU but not slavishly beholden to it? Instead, the only way for him and Tom Holland to meet is by stepping through a tear in the fabric of reality (and they didn't even do that!) and that just seems needlessly complicated to me. Not everything needs to be multiverse shenanigans; bring back the Netflix actors, or recast them, but there's not need to wash away everything that happened in their shows.