Do you think Jean could of Controlled it?

[gambitfire]

I think she could have but

A) People kept bringing up she killed Scott when she was calm & that made her go over the edge

B) Magneto did not help either

Soo True.

 

[gambitfire]

That didn't make her go over the edge... it was Phoenix who did it, quite willingly.

When she rose, it would have been the Phoenix that was the stronger presence, seeing as how Jean's conciousness was all but destroyed in X2... so when she rose, it was the Phoenix.

The use of power to hold back Scott's blast brought out the Phoenix to the fullest, and she wanted to have some fun. Kablamo Cyclops.

lol i dunno if Pheonix killed Cyclops on purposed i mean it seems that way but it's still so harsh considering the original Dark Phoenix didn't want to kill him like that, and the fact that she didn't kill Wolverine for fun makes it worse. I prefer to think that she just couldn't control her powers........

oh who am i kiding they made it so obvious Phoenix killed him those bastards at FOX and the writers didn't make it any better by making Phoenix like Wolverine over Cyclops . I thought i was over the movie but i still hate it

 

[PowersOfMind]

I was thinking that maybe it was becuase he shot into the lake and that disturbed her... so she played with his head then proceeded to wipe him off the face of the earth.

 

[ico]

I still don't believe that he's actually dead though There are too many questions for me to believe he's just dead.
Why didn't they show him die like they did everybody else Phoenix killed??
Why when Storm and Wolverine went to Alkali Lake was there tons of fog and Phoenix was unconcious??

 

[PowersOfMind]

Well I was thinking the only reason they didnt show it was because they wanted to save it for the showdown between her and Prof X. I seriously do not believe he could have survived what the Phoenix would have done to him.

 

[Drago]

Well I was thinking the only reason they didnt show it was because they wanted to save it for the showdown between her and Prof X. I seriously do not believe he could have survived what the Phoenix would have done to him.

Yea, I agree. I assumed that they don't show Cyclops because then, when Xavier gets it, its super-dramatic and has double the impact (because we realize the same thing happenned to Scott).

I'm an optimist and am giving a lot of things about this film the benefit of the doubt. Anyone else think that it was just extreme emotion, urges, etc. that was setting off the Pheonix (since that's what triggers the repressed personality of schizos anyway)? Because that would explain her freaking out at the mention of Cyclops' death, her pissed off freakout at the army trying to kill/cure/capture her, and in my opinion her killing Cyclops- I thought their reunion was sincere (including Jean's "freeing" Scott of his curse), just that their making out was very passionate and that's what triggered Pheonix. Any thoughts?

 

[Drago]

Didn't that happen in Generation X where Monet St. Croix's sisters' minds fused inside Penance?

Not a clue. I just turned 22, have never read any of the comics (love all the films and X-Men: TAS though), and there's a bit too much catching up for me to do to cover the past however many decades.

 

[Drago]

His arrogance? I don't think arrogance is the right way to describe what Xavier did. Once she had access to her full powers, Jean killed the man she loved, she killed her mentor, and she killed countless humans and mutants with her powers. She ripped a house from it's foundations and tore Alcatraz apart.

I don't think it was arrogant to repress her powers. I think it was sensible.

After she became the [X3] Pheonix, then yea, either repress them or kill her. But why did she do those things and kill all those people? Because Xavier caused her to- he created the Pheonix part of Jean by never teaching her to control her power, but deciding on his own that she shouldn't be allowed to use it. He repressed it, it was pent up, and it broke out. That's why I say he's arrogant- he took it upon himself to make a decision that wasn't his to make, and in the end it was most likely the wrong one.

I liked arrogant Xavier- it showed him to be extreme, not perfect, and the polar opposite of Magneto (suggesting that neither Magneto or Xavier are right in their actions... its a bit controversial). Xavier decided on his own to never tell Logan about his past even though he knew the truth, remember? And I'm nowhere near the 'humanitarian' Xavier is, but if I were him and knew that cerebro could be the dangerous weapon it was in X2, I would've swallowed my pride and destroyed it on my own.

 

[tirminyl]

Nope. She couldn't have controlled it.

To the best of my knowledge once someone becomes a schizo it's impossible to teach them how to lock that personality back up- that's why they make meds for people in that situation. Dual personalities are created because strong emotions and urges are "locked up" and as a means of survival they found a way out- you can't put them back after that happens and that's what happenned to Jean.

It's probably possible to "merge" 2 personalities with a lot of therapy- but it didn't matter because Professor X never wanted her to have her powers, he wanted them to stay repressed. If he had his way, he would cage her powers again (atleast thats how it was portrayed on film)- his arrogance would overrule his regret.

Ditto. She would not be able to control Phoenix. Jean has always been the alpha personality. From cerebro or Magnetos mutation she because to receive her full powers and the lack of control. With the power Jean previously had, she still wasn't able to control it. At the peak of her ability and mental stress (holding back the flood and lifting the jet) Jean gave up and allowed herself to willingly die. Phoenix did not. Phoenix personality then took full control to save them both. It would take alot and I mean alot of work to control that side of Jean. Maybe just maybe Xavier tried to help but it was no use and put the breakers in to block full access to her power. Maybe Jean knew but blocked it out due to anger and let it build over the years.

 

[ntcrawler]

Ultimately, she could have done it, but the way things were set up in the movie it was doomed to fail. They had alot of opportunities to give her a sense of peace and safety, to let her focus and relax and not get agitated that was seen to have a noticeable effect. Things were going pretty good at the lake with Scott until the producers reached in and made it seem like something went wrong and she blasted him away.

Professor X seemed to become obsessed with caging the beast instead of reaching out to her from a respectful distance and giving her the opportunity to willingly "take his hand" so to say.

Wolverine had the right idea but instead of calming her down he was clutching her and screaming for her to TRY TO RELAX!!!

Prof X had another opportunity when he saw her at her family's house. She seemed to be doing the equivalent of sitting in a corner and rocking back and forth. Had he been more.... gentle in his approach and being more clear about what he meant by "help". He was obsessed about smothering her and throwing a net on her instead giving her the chance to come out and trust him. Maybe appealing to her using examples how she's family and so many people love her and miss her, etc that could have worked. Of course Magneto got in the way and openned his big mouth, which only made things worse.

She seemed to be quite in control when she was with Magneto and his henchmen in the woods and on their cross-country hike to San Francisco. She didn't level any towns or massacre any people along the way (certainly no news reports of that!) so she wa quite in control.

ANd of course having 20 soldiers try to shoot her from behing made her REALLY mad. So long as she wasn't directly threatened in the final battle she seemed to keep to herself.

Which is my point here. As long as she wasn't directly threatened, agitated she seemed to be doing fine. Getting her to breath in and out of the proverbial paper bag and easing her tensions would have done wonders.

So again, they had several opportunities to do this, and for whatever reason they all failed

 

[ntcrawler]

lol i dunno if Pheonix killed Cyclops on purposed i mean it seems that way but it's still so harsh considering the original Dark Phoenix didn't want to kill him like that, and the fact that she didn't kill Wolverine for fun makes it worse. I prefer to think that she just couldn't control her powers........

oh who am i kiding they made it so obvious Phoenix killed him those bastards at FOX and the writers didn't make it any better by making Phoenix like Wolverine over Cyclops . I thought i was over the movie but i still hate it

Yeah that's what I mean! The production staff and politics got in the way and inadvertedly messed up the plot. I keep saying it. To have Jean kill Scott in cold blood for no reason especially during a moment, in a setting which would have held back the Phoenix and calmed her mental state like nothing else, is about as wrong and out of character as having Prof X reach into a desk drawer, pull out a gun and shoot one of his students

 

[ntcrawler]

Yea, I agree. I assumed that they don't show Cyclops because then, when Xavier gets it, its super-dramatic and has double the impact (because we realize the same thing happenned to Scott).

I'm an optimist and am giving a lot of things about this film the benefit of the doubt. Anyone else think that it was just extreme emotion, urges, etc. that was setting off the Pheonix (since that's what triggers the repressed personality of schizos anyway)? Because that would explain her freaking out at the mention of Cyclops' death, her pissed off freakout at the army trying to kill/cure/capture her, and in my opinion her killing Cyclops- I thought their reunion was sincere (including Jean's "freeing" Scott of his curse), just that their making out was very passionate and that's what triggered Pheonix. Any thoughts?

I agree with about 99% of what you're saying here. Except that being with Scott and sensing his feelings she'd see his sincerity and how genuine his feelings are. He knew better than to lust for her hot body at an encounter like that. There really wouldn't be anything to bring out the animal (or the Phoenix) in her at that point.

Here's my take on the situation and the Alkali Lake scene (well you asked for it!)

Jean/Phoenix disintegrated Professor X when he tried to mentally rape her at her house, but she did not kill any of the other X-Men even when attacked, and yes she could have easily wiped out Wolverine. Yet she only got rid of those who were either a direct threat (such as the soldiers), or some of the Morlocks. He power was awsome, but it required concious control. Otherwise she could have levelled entire city blocks with a single thought, or caused a massacre after another but throughout the movie she was seen at being able to keep her powers focused and in check when she wanted to. So she couldn't have possibly vaporized Scott with a stray thought. And she wouldn't have sucked him in to use him for power like another member of this forum suggested because ike other telepaths / telekinetic mutants, Jean's power comes from her natural ability to use her mind to tap into things mortals can't, and the energy to run her body from FOOD.

Scott is haunted by Jean calling out to him. He can feel her terror. She's reaching out to him. He heard her calling out to him and responded.
What Scott encounters is not the dark Phoenix persona but Jean. Very much alive, but dazed and confused. She has no memory of what happened or how she got there. She feels an unexplained surge of power inside her, and the last thing she remembers are her final terrifying moments when the waters crashed around her. Her mind was calling out to Scott. She wanted to be with him. She wanted to be safe and in his arms, and there he was.

The Phoenix persona in the movie has 3 strong emotions: Desire, joy, and rage. The most dangerous of these is of course Rage. That's when all hell breaks lose and people die and buildings get blown to smithereens. What brings out the rage, or more precisely what causes the dark side of the Pnoenix to come out? When she's threatened, attacked, provoked, or otherwise agitated.

Put yourself in her shoes for a second. Did Scott do any of those things? Absolutely not. Of all the people she wanted to be with, it would have been him. She loved Logan, but not as much as Scott. He would have been the #2 guy, but when all was said and done, it was Scott she wanted. Of all the people Scott wanted to be with at that point, it was her as well. It's one of those moments where time stands still and the rest of the world doesn't matter anymore. Locked in each other arms, sorrow and fear turns to disbelief, then you realize it's not a ghost but the real thing that you're holding in your hands, and you have a beautiful scene of peace and tranquility.
With her now stronger telepathic powers, she could not have helped but reach into Scott's mind like she did with Logan. But with Scott, she would only sense the most sincere of feelings: the longing to be with her, the sadness at losing her, then the disbelief and joy of being together again. She was safely in the arms of the man she loved once again.

SO WHAT BETTER WAY TO SUPPRESS PHE PNOEIX AND KEEP IT AT BAY THAN THAT??? I can think of no stronger weapon or therapy than this!!! Think about it for a sec! As long as she was in this state there was no threat of her losing control or harm coming from the Phoenix persona. She couldn't possibly have hurt or killed him. To disintegrate someone or hurt him some other way she needed to concentrate and focus her power, bring out her anger. There's no way she colud do that when in a serene setting like this. To kill a man she loves and who loves her back and she knows it and is in her arms with tears in his eyes would not only be cold-blooded but completely ridiculous and preposterous for the character and the movie!

And Everything was going fine until she wanted to see his eyes. She felt she now had the power to do anything, and wanted to use it for something special. Scott was afraid but she, Jean eased his fears And for another moment there was nothing but love and tranquility.

But Jean hadn't quite mastered her new abilities. Like Dr Octopus in Spiderman 2, she probably had to play a balancing act with the different forces at work. But the delicate balancing act turned into a frenzied juggling act. You see her opening her eyes, like she's afraid of something or something's going wrong. Scott's face seems to struggle. Almost looks like he's wincing from pain, you see his eyes go wide. It's a completely different effect of that which was used later when she disintegrated others.
Maybe something distracted her, caused her to lose her concentration. At any rate, she ended up dropping some of those pieces, or surpessing Scott's beams had unexpected side-effects for Scott.

"Jean, you're hurting me. Jean, it hurts!". He steps back clutching his head. Jean becomes concerned and gets distracted even more. Waves her arms trying to steady him, not sure what to do. Things get chaotic pretty fast. Scott tries to retrieve his glasses, Jean's not sure what to do. Things get out of control. The shields suddenly fail and it all happens in an instant:
His optic beams shoot Jean at point blank range and at their full intensity. Similar to when he attacked her inside the dam in X2. It wouldn't hurt her but it could knock her off her feet or off that rocky ledge. Her reaction could have been reflexive light someone raising ther arms when you throw something at their face. She's knocked back but deflects the beam in a big flash of light as her full power is inadvertedly called up. It comes back at Scott who ends up being catapulted the other way just like in X2, but much stronger this time and he lands someone in that tree-filled area behind the road. Hits his head, knocked unconcious. Jean either hits her head too or faints from the shock. Her mind unconciously lashes out from this sudden attack in all directions and causes all those levitating leaves and rocks and mist from the lake .
When Logan and Ororo arrive later they do a cursory search for Scott, but don't find him because they really don't know what they're looking for or what happened. The book states that Scott's bike had a tracking beacon, but I don't think he'd have one directly on him. Logan's tracking skills don't work when there's nothing to track, and his sense of smell wouldn't work if the wind's blowing the wrong way. So Scott ends up injured, unconcious, and very much alive but inadvertedly left behind in the woods.
Jean's in shock again at the mansion and still dazed and confused, so she can't remember what happened. Only brief images flash of her death and of her encounter with Scott, but nothing specific. Logan assumes Scott is dead and when he sees how Jean acts he's convinced it's true. But you never see her admit it. Only after Logan and Xavier press the idea into her head does she believe it to be true as well, but it only makes her more agitated and hysterical. She loses her cool, the Phoenix comes out, and her powers go out of control.

So Scott ends up being lost and injured in the woods, but alive. Maybe he's knocked unconcious. Maybe he comes to eventually and tries to find his way out groping blindly. Maybe he gets picked up by hikers or travellers or a park ranger or a villain. Alot of possibilities here, but all very plausible.

Everyone's convinced he's dead and give up looking for him. Or there's no chance for that because of all the other things going on. So he's effectively removed from the plot you see in the film. Definitely missing out on the big party at Alcatraz.

It's not perfect, but at this point I'd rather have the benefit of the doumt with a vague scene than to have all hopes dashed with a big, graphic death scene. The lesser of two evils, as Professor X would say!

And there you go.

 

[ntcrawler]

Oh yeah, there was one more opportunity. When Wolverine found her in the forests around Megneto's secret campsite. He could have had another chance to talk to her and appeal to her good side to return to good guys, but of course Magneto got in the way and sent Logan flying. One botched attempt after another.

I'm actually kinda surprised why the rest of the characters didn't try to track her down and appeal to her. I thought she had some channels open with some of the students.