DTL Season 5-Week 1 (Set 4)

[DTL Commish]

The rules:
This is one of four threads containing matches.
The threads will be in use for 7 days. Days 1-3 (Friday-Sunday) are strictly setup time for owners to plead their cases, tell us their team’s strategies, breakdown the match ups, and do whatever else they can/want to do to try and convince you that their team would pull out a victory. Please, let the owners do this on their own with no help from you, the fan.

Debates will open to everyone on Day 4 (Monday) once I post that they are open. On Day 6 (Wednesday) I will post and tell everyone that voting may begin. Only after doing so will voting start. Any votes cast before I open voting will not count.

Look over the matchups and read the owners strategies and take into consideration how in-character each character is. Afterwards, use your best judgment to decide who you think has the best chance to win the match up. (Note: The length of a writeup is up to the owner. Do not punish owners just for having a shorter writeup.)

To vote, post the team names you think will prevail in each match. Remember, to vote for each match up or your vote will not count! The teams with the highest vote total at the end of the 7th day (Thursday) will get a W while the other will get an L. (Equal votes will result in a tie.)

The battleground for this week is: The Savage Land

The Immortals
Juggernaught Xavier (MU) -- super-strength, super-speed, durability, telepathy, intellect
Gideon (MU) -- power copier
Braniac 417 (Mon-Els) (DM) -- Intellect, intangibility, superman type powers (3 mini-mon els), extreme high tech from future including flight rings, teleportation devices, impenetrable shields, communication devices
Chunk (DR) -- teleportation, computer whiz, absorption
Midnighter (DR) -- high performing street level fighter

VS.

The Deadly Dozen
Hadrian (DU) -- teleportation, strength, speed, durability, regeneration
Doomsday-Brainiac (DU) -- super-strength, super-speed, durability, telepathy, intellect
Invisible Woman (Malice) [MM] -- invisibility, force-fields
The Ghost (MR) -- invisibility, intangibility, high-tech weaponry
Halloween Jack (MR) -- shapeshifting

 

[Khellendros]

Well, might as well post our preptime usage/initial writeup... This was written by Ahura, with minor editing done by me. Ahura is out of town though, so I'll be doing any debating for our team this week.

----------------------

Ahura Mazda and Khellendros from the 4th dimension hear the call of war and these two great beings gather a team of champions to fight this first battle..…..


The Team

Xavier / Juggernaught

Gideon

Brainiac 417

Never been able to find a bio for Brainiac 417. He's the Brainiac if the 853rd century so he obviously a damn genius, he's a spirit type lifeform , he has no physical body. He wears a belt of his own design that allows him to timetravel/teleport and project a forcefield. The forcefield has offensive as well as defensive purposes (see brainiac 5). He's alos able to to enter the minds of other people and link his mind with theirs. Also he's able to call upon 3 little antman sized Daxamites called M'onelves who will fight for him. The m'onelves are identical in appearance and don't speak.

Chunk

Midnighter


Prep Time (important parts bolded)

The 5 meet knowing they must do battle against others but most of them do not know each other. The Juggernaut, being a omega level telepath immediately links his mind with all he sees before him. Surprisingly he notices that Gideon has the same telepathic powers as him and he has a hard time entering the mind of the green spirit form he sees. The others have no defense against his powers.

We have to form a strategy against the upstarts who come against us. I think it is best that each introduce themselves so that we know what my….our resources will be in this upcoming battle. It would be best if you all open your minds to me and I will link us so we may share each other’s thoughts.

Everybody agrees even though Gideon is very reluctant but even he knows that sometimes you must ally yourself with others. Brainiac 417 who is also ever reluctant knowing his only weakness could be his mind, turns off his psi-blocker.

Xavier is amazed by the wealth of knowledge he is able to ascertain from Brainiac but even he cannot understand everything even though he has the sum totality of the combined intelligence of the greatest minds of his own earth where he ruled. The others, while nervous to see some of the wicked things Gideon has done, also sense that he is a pragmatist who realizes cooperation is the most beneficial course in this situation. Xavier also assures them that, though he will always support mutant supremacy, he must do battle before he can return home, and he refuses to lose to a group of humans.

Once they know about each other, they discuss their opponents. Thanks to Brainiac 417 they know everything every thing there is to know about Doomsday-Brainiac. Xavier knows of the Invisible Woman of his universe, who he defeated by using gas (which takes away super powers and was how he defeated FF4, the Hulk and others) but no-one seems to know The Ghost or Halloween Jack so they go by the descriptions provided to them and start elaborating a strategy.

Brainiac using replication technology provides each of his allies a copy of his BELT fully explaining the uses, as well as a FLIGHT RING and Xavier hands everyone POWER STEALING GAS PELLETS (Brainiac replicated the formula Xavier had and improved the delivery mechanism). Brainiac hands over to Xavier psi-blocking technology from the 853rd century after explaining that was how Brainiac was taken out of Doomsday’s mind when they fought in the past.

Brainiac also hands Midnighter different weapons taken from the 853rd century including explosives and other close-range melee weaponry, along with depowering gas.

Therefore to recap everything:

Each team member has:

- A teleportation device (capable of time travel and cross dimensional teleportation)
- Very effective shields which all but Brainiac use defensively.
- Flight rings (the whole legion had one)
- Scanning devices
- Gas shooting guns which rob super-humans of their superpowers
- Communication devices which allow everyone to stay in contact across dimensions

On top of that,
Xavier has:
Psi-blocking technology from the 853rd century

Brainiac 417 has:
Various tech from the 853rd century

Midnighter has:
853rd century weaponry, and depowering gas

The other thing to note is that Brainiac 417 with access to the legion of superheroes database of the 853rd century is able to pass on full knowledge of Doomsday-Brainiac to his allies of the day. Xavier, with his knowledge of the Invisible Woman is able to give a complete rundown on her powers to his team. Of course, all of this is done telepathically therefore avoiding any miscommunication.

The Battle

First off, Brainiac 417 with his scans can figure out the terrain in a millisecond and also know where everyone is. Xavier and Gideon using telepathic links , instantly relay necessary info to their teammates. They all, using their teleportation belts go after their respective opponents.

Invisible Woman Vs. Brainiac 417

Using his scanning technology from the 853rd century Brainiac 417 teleports in front of her knowing she will not know much about him given both Hadrian and Brainiac Doomsday come from far in the past relative to himself. The Mon-els immediately using super speed (it will be 1/8th as fast as a Daxamite) hit her (or just the immediate area around her) with gas pellets. As her counterpart did in Xavier’s universe, Malice will lose all her powers and revert back to a mean Sue Storm. This will happen at the outstart and there is no defense against this gas that no one on the opposite team could know about, including having her shield up.

Hadrian Vs. Gideon

Now, Gideon is able to teleport using the belt given him, in front of Hadrian. Gideon will also have shields and as soon as he reaches Hadrian he will copy of all of Hadrian’s powers, complete with the skills to use them. Maybe even more effectively. This battle will go for quite awhile but Gideon will have the advantage of having a shield that protects him as well as having all the powers of Hadrian, and one of the mini Mon Els, which Brainiac sent with him.

Xavier/Juggernaut vs. Doomsday/Brainiac

This will obviously be a fight of two great titans. Xavier will sue the psi-blocking tech that was provided to him by Brainiac 417 right away. This was how Brainiac was drawn out of Doomsday during the Doomsday Wars and it should work the same way here. Also Brainiac will be unable to use his mental powers as he needs to concentrate in order to stay in control of Doomsday’s body per the comic book. Xavier will have comparable strength to Doomsday but Doomsday will be faster. Juggernaut will be more durable (he is virtually invulnerable) plus he will have a shield from the 853rd century. He will also be able to fly because of the flight rings. Brainiac will lose control of Doomsday because of the psi-blocking technology and Xavier will attempt to take over Doomsday’s mind even if he proves unsuccessful at it his telepathy will allow him to obtain foreknowledge of Doomsday’s moves. This will be a battle that will devastate the area and I think both will be evenly matched.

Chunk vs. The Ghost

Chunk will teleport to the Ghost and begin constantly attempting to absorb him. The Ghost does not need to be visible for Chunk to do this, and will not be able to resist this pull, because even the Flash couldn't (though he was caught off guard). Chunk can immediately follow Ghost around, if he does manage to escape at first, and will be invulnerable to any of Ghost's weapons because of the shield provided to him by Brainiac 417. The Ghost will attempt to phase through Chunk but this should not shut him down as Chunk can teleport out of reach and resume trying to suck him in. The best the Ghost can hope for is a phasing attack just before he is completely absorbed by Chunk, but that will leave him caught between dimensions, and result in a double elimination.

Midnighter vs. Halloween Jack

Halloween Jack looks on paper to be very effective and could be considered uber given his powers but this is before you realize that he was defeated repeatedly by Domino and is an absolute coward who is insane. Midnighter, who is one of the most effective street fighters there are with superhuman strength and speed, expert fighting skills and 853rd weapons should be able to handle Halloween Jack who at the end never was able to fight directly an individual very effectively. But Midnighter has a major advantage here in so far that he has the power stealing gas provided to him by Xavier and can use it on Halloween Jack on which it should be effective.


Brainiac 417, having finished Malice will teleport to Gideon’s side increasing the powers of Gideon (Gideon will copy the other two Daxamites).

Hadrian vs. Gideon & Brainiac 417

Hadrian will eventually be overwhelmed by Gideon who has strength and speed greater then him plus all his powers and other mini-Daxamite powers from the three Mon-Els. To top that, Brainiac 417 will only need to touch Hadrian to interface with him, shutting him down. Thus ends Hadrian.

Xavier/Juggernaut & Gideon & Brainiac 417 vs. Doomsday/Brainiac

Gideon will have the powers of a 3/8ths of a Daxamite up to the point where he copies Doomsday himself. Therefore, Doomsday will be fighting against both Xavier / Juggernaut and Gideon with all the powers of Doomsday. In the end, it will take Doomsday being tossed into space, which is accomplished by Gideon, using the flight of a Mon El in combination with Doomsday's powers to remove him from the planet's surface.

Xavier / Juggernaut and the others will then go join their two other teammates who if they are still in battle will suddenly find overwhelming force on their side and both the Ghost and Halloween Jack will go down either because of Chunk’s and Midnighter’s powers or because of the overwhelming strength of Xavier/Juggernaut, Gideon and the Mon-Els or just simply because they have no defense against telepathy.



As a conclusion, the lynchpin of this strategy is the quick win over Malice using the power stealing gas invented by Xavier and replicated by Brainiac 417. This gas was used by him and supplied to others and with it the FF4 were neutered all having lost their powers. The effect was immediate. None of the adversaries could know about it as it was a Xavier/Juggernaut invention in his universe.

 

[X]

Great write-up format, Khell. Highlights the most important, pertinent information and what not.

 

[Khellendros]

Yeah, I'll definitely be mimicking it when I have to do a writeup.

 

[X]

You've got a very fact driven style. Very little story.

Not bad at all, but pretty different.

 

[XFanTim]

Hey guys,
This weekend is my first wedding anniversary. My wife and I are on a trip together and won't be back until late Sunday. I hope no one minds if I wait until Monday to post my writeup -- probably Monday evening since I still have to go to work on Monday. I'll read Khell's then too and post my feedback.
- Tim

 

[X]

Hah, we're not thatcallous, Tim.

I don't think anyone'll not wait.

 

[Khellendros]

Hey guys,
This weekend is my first wedding anniversary. My wife and I are on a trip together and won't be back until late Sunday. I hope no one minds if I wait until Monday to post my writeup -- probably Monday evening since I still have to go to work on Monday. I'll read Khell's then too and post my feedback.
- Tim

NO! The League, and more importantly our match, comes before any "MARRIAGE"!










































No really, me > your wife.

 

[X]

Khell, check out my write-up and give me some feedback, man!

 

[Khellendros]

Khell, check out my write-up and give me some feedback, man!

I'm gonna post it here, since debating is already underway in yours. I liked it, though it came off like a story, which I thought was being avoided. Still, it was short and easy to read, so that helps. The Magus/X-man fight was bad ass, too.

 

[XFanTim]

My Team
Doomsday-Brainiac (Doomsday possessed by Brainiac)
Hadrian
Invisible Woman (Malice)
The Ghost
Halloween Jack

I’m going to do my best to keep this brief, as per the new rule. If anything needs further clarification I’m sure it can be dealt with during debate. Conversely, if you think it’s still too long let me know and I’ll cut back more for next week.

vs Gideon

My team doesn’t know anything about Gideon except he’s a “power copier”, but it doesn’t take a brainiac to figure out you don’t want him near anyone he can copy. (And anyway, I have a Brainiac…) So the first thing we do is have Hadrian teleport him a mile above the battlefield – and teleport a dozen high-powered explosives (courtesy of Ghost) up there with him to blast him out of the sky.

Gideon shakes it off – even though he’s too far away to copy his teammates’ invulnerability, he made sure to pocket one of Brainiac-417’s Mon’Elves for just this eventuality. Now he taps its power to fly back down towards his teammates – and slams directly into an invisible forcefield. My team didn’t know if he’d lose all his powers when he was isolated, so they had Malice waiting in the wings to finish the job. Without seeing his opponent, Gideon doesn’t know where to strike. He copies her powers to see through her invisibility, but by the time he does she’s already created an invisible bubble in his arteries, blocking off blood flow to his brain. Gideon can’t die, but he is KOed for the duration. The Mon’elf is swiftly crushed by an invisible battering ram that he never saw coming.

Regs and Middleweights
Xavier can’t attack my regs yet, but a psi-scan tips him off to their location within the Savage Land jungle, and he relays this info to his teammates. Xavier doesn’t even need a scan to see Doomsday barreling towards him, toppling trees and batting aside an unfortunate Triceratops. (Brainy could take a more subtle approach, but why bother when it’s obvious to everyone that the two heavyweights are going to have to square off.)

Moments ahead of Doomsday’s arrival, Chunk teleports himself, Midnighter, and Brainiac-417 into the jungle to ambush Halloween Jack and Ghost. But when they arrive there’s no one there. Brainiac whips out some scanning tech to investigate, and Chunk remarks on the pleasant scent of the jungle flowers. A second later he collapses – one of the flowers was a transformed Halloween Jack, who sprayed the area with an airborne neurotoxin. [Jack’s used poisons before – he may be nuts but he still has the knowledge of an Alchemax scientist]. Midnighter is unaffected thanks to his super-immune system, and Brainiac-417 doesn’t even have lungs.

Just as Chunk falls, Brainiac-417’s scanner locks in on Halloween Jack. Jack tries to morph his form, but Brainiac has him wrapped up tight in his forcefield, compressing him back into his natural shape. On his command the two Mon’Elves swoop in grab Jack’s arms, pulling them in opposite directions. Even a shapeshifter can only stretch so far (I suppose), and eventually Jack rips in two. [I may not be giving Jack enough credit here, but I need to get this done and I figure no one can fault me for downplaying my own character.]

Meanwhile, Midnighter barely manages to dodge a blast from the gun of Ghost, who was hiding invisibly among the trees. Ghost, still invisible, keeps moving so as to keep Midnighter from knowing where to strike back, and rains down shot after shot. Only Midnighter’s extreme reflexes keep him from getting tagged. Even though Midnighter can’t see his opponent, his powerful brain keeps track of where each shot comes from until he has enough data to extrapolate Ghost’s next move. When he does, he subtly signals Brainiac-417 (who’s just finished off Halloween Jack), and before Ghost knows what hit him the Mon’Elves have battered him into unconsciousness.

By now Malice has arrived from her fight with Gideon, and she announces her invisible arrival by crushing every bone in Midnighter’s body between two invisible force fields. Even his advanced healing will take a while to deal with that. Brainiac-417 prepares to deal with this new foe ….

vs Xavier-Juggernaut
Doomsday and Juggernaut are a pretty even match – both have top-notch strength and durability. Xavier may have the telepathic edge, but Brainiac can resist it. The main difference is this – Doomsday is a lot faster. Fast enough to take on the Justice League and their multiple super-speedsters. After a bit of a struggle, Doomsday ducks a punch and launches Xavier into the air with an uppercut. Of course, what goes up must come down, and Juggernaut is coming down right on top of Doomsday. Much to Xavier’s surprise, he passes straight through and keeps falling right through the ground. During their struggle Doomsday had planted one of Ghost’s portable phasing units on Juggernauts back. Immune even to air resistance, Juggernaut keeps accelerating towards the earth’s core. By the time he figures out what’s happening, finds the phasing unit, and finds a way to deactivate it (if that’s even possible), he’ll already be buried under miles of earth and rock. Last time that happened [in his What If? appearance] it took him years to get out.

[Normally Ghost’s phasing units are calibrated so only he can touch them to place and remove them – but it’s was a simple mod to make the unit activate on a timer, and Brainiac was smart enough to time his uppercut right before it kicked in.]

vs. Brainiac-417

While Brainiac-417 might be able to recalibrate his scanner to see through Malice’s invisibility, he opts for a faster approach – exapanding his force field in all directions until it slams into her. Or rather, it slams into the invisible bubble Sue has shielded herself with. Rather than pit force field against force field, Brainiac simply teleports himself to the inside of Malice’s field. This time when his forcefield lashes out it finds its target, and Sue is knocked unconscious.

But now, Doomsday has finished dealing with Xavier, which means he and Hadrian are free to attack Brainiac-417. Hadrian teleports the Mon’Elves right in front of Doomsday, who bashes their heads together Three Stooges-style. Meanwhile, Hadrian uses his teleportation to strip Brainiac of his technology – in fact he can not just teleport it away, but actually teleport each device into pieces, rendering them useless. And without his tech, Brainiac is basically just an intangible body – as Doomsday discovers when his attempted Coup de Grace passes harmlessly through him. Oh well, all Hadrian needs to do is teleport him off the battlefield, and my team wins. [Normally I would consider it cheesy to win by teleportationally clearing the battlefield, but against a guy who’s immune to physical attacks I’ve got to make do with what I’ve got. I would have had Doomsday-Brainiac telepathically KO him, but it was ruled at the last minute that he can’t use his telepathy when in Doomsday’s form.]

Deadly Dozen wins

 

[XFanTim]

Some further comments now that I've read Khell's writeup (had plenty of time to read it while the board was refusing to let mine post):

First, good stuff Khell. Regardless of who takes this match, I think you'll be a force to reckon with in the DTL.

I like the fact that you used Xavier's power-stealing gas against Sue. I've read the Xavier-Juggernaut What If?, but I'd forgotten about Xavier depowering the FF. That said . . . I have a couple (fairly minor) quibbles about the way you used the gas.
-- First, why couldn't Sue's forcefield block it? As I remember the comic, Xavier just surprised the FF with the gas and they were de-powered before they knew what had happened. But here in the DTL I'd think she'd start the battle with her shield up to avoid any surprise attacks.

-- Also, I'm not so sure the gas would work on Halloween Jack without modification (and since your team doesn't know Jack, they wouldn't know what mods to make). If I remember the What If?, Xavier drew on Reed's own research on trying to "cure" the Thing when designing the gas, and then tapped into the minds of other geniuses to finish the job. So my interpretation was that the original gas was FF specific. It later showed him using a similar weapon against a couple other super-beings, but my interpretation was he'd studied them and modified it as appropriate. I guess you could instead interpret it as a generic power-removing gas, but the fact that he used other strategies against a number of heroes seems to argue otherwise. (E.g., why rely on blackmail against Spider-man -- threatening to out him to Aunt May -- if he could have just as easily permanently removed his powers?)

A few other points I’d like to emphasize for the voters:

- Hadrian knows Gideon is a "power copier", since that info was provided. Why not just teleport out of range? In fact, once he figures out Gideon is relying on a Mon'Elf and tech he could teleport them away too and leave him powerless.

- I think Doomsday has one big advantage on Juggernaut, and that's speed. Juggernaut has never demonstrated the speed to keep up with the likes of Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter -- Doomsday has. Admittedly Juggernaut is probably too invulnerable to be KOed by Doomsday, but Doomsday isn’t going to be knocked out by Juggernaut either. That’s probably why Khell and I both had our guy use tech to take the other guy out – but since Doomsday is faster, I say he’d be the one to spring his tech on his opponent first.

- Ultimately, though, I think the fight comes down to who gets the drop on whom. In Khell's writeup, his team gets the drop on mine -- in my writeup, it's mostly the opposite. Here's how I see it:
-- Khell has Brainiac-417's scanning tech (whatever that may be)
-- Khell has teleportation (Chunk + tech).
-- I have stealth: Malice's invisiblity (which she can extend to the whole team), Ghost’s invisibility/intangibility, Halloween’s Jack’s ability to hide via shapeshifting
-- I have Hadrian’s teleportation
That last one is the most important. Even if you buy that Brainiac’s scanners can instantly thwart all my stealth, Hadrian still has the speed advantage. He’s got android reflexes that are good enough to give Majestic a headache. I think he's the fastest guy in the fight (after Doomsday, maybe), so I'm betting he gets his 'ports in first.

 

[XFanTim]

I'm going to bed now -- I'll try to check back here tomorrow to reply to any comments Khell may have.

 

[wiegeabo]

Writeup Time will end after today.

 

[Khellendros]

Okay, lets do this...

Gideon shakes it off – even though he’s too far away to copy his teammates’ invulnerability, he made sure to pocket one of Brainiac-417’s Mon’Elves for just this eventuality. Now he taps its power to fly back down towards his teammates – and slams directly into an invisible forcefield.

Yeaaah, you'd better define where the "wings" are she's waiting in, otherwise he just copied her power. Also, let us not forget the copy of Brainiac's belt he was given at the beginning. Means he'll be putting himself anywhere on the battlefield he pleases.

My team didn’t know if he’d lose all his powers when he was isolated, so they had Malice waiting in the wings to finish the job. Without seeing his opponent, Gideon doesn’t know where to strike.

Unless she's within a couple hundred feet of him (not out of the question, tactically, considering how thick the jungle can be), in which case one assumes that someone with the same powerset would be able to see her and her constructs, or sense them somehow.

He copies her powers to see through her invisibility, but by the time he does she’s already created an invisible bubble in his arteries, blocking off blood flow to his brain. Gideon can’t die, but he is KOed for the duration. The Mon’elf is swiftly crushed by an invisible battering ram that he never saw coming.

Riiight, except he gets the skills and know-how to use the powers as well as the original user, if not better. Which means, the instant he feels the bubbles forming within him he can simply collapse them with his own and do the same to her in return. Stalemate, until he gets bored and teleports away

Moments ahead of Doomsday’s arrival, Chunk teleports himself, Midnighter, and Brainiac-417 into the jungle to ambush Halloween Jack and Ghost. But when they arrive there’s no one there. Brainiac whips out some scanning tech to investigate, and Chunk remarks on the pleasant scent of the jungle flowers. A second later he collapses – one of the flowers was a transformed Halloween Jack, who sprayed the area with an airborne neurotoxin. [Jack’s used poisons before – he may be nuts but he still has the knowledge of an Alchemax scientist]. Midnighter is unaffected thanks to his super-immune system, and Brainiac-417 doesn’t even have lungs.

Actually, Brainy wouldn't need to use tech. Midnighter's senses would be good enough to at LEAST let him find the Ghost, if not Jack as well, and the instant he knew they were concealed, he'd be peppering the area with explosives. He'd know that Chunk is smart enough to protect himself and Brainy wouldn't even notice them if he weren't looking right at them/couldn't hear them. You ARE right about Midnighter not being troubled by the gas, though. Also, even if Jack did get the gas off, Chunk could simply react by shunting it to that other world through his body before he had a chance to inhale it.

Just as Chunk falls, Brainiac-417’s scanner locks in on Halloween Jack. Jack tries to morph his form, but Brainiac has him wrapped up tight in his forcefield, compressing him back into his natural shape. On his command the two Mon’Elves swoop in grab Jack’s arms, pulling them in opposite directions. Even a shapeshifter can only stretch so far (I suppose), and eventually Jack rips in two. [I may not be giving Jack enough credit here, but I need to get this done and I figure no one can fault me for downplaying my own character.]

Eh, frankly, Brainy wouldn't even need to be there. Mids and Chunk could handle this business on their own, though it'd take a bit longer.

Meanwhile, Midnighter barely manages to dodge a blast from the gun of Ghost, who was hiding invisibly among the trees. Ghost, still invisible, keeps moving so as to keep Midnighter from knowing where to strike back, and rains down shot after shot. Only Midnighter’s extreme reflexes keep him from getting tagged. Even though Midnighter can’t see his opponent, his powerful brain keeps track of where each shot comes from until he has enough data to extrapolate Ghost’s next move. When he does, he subtly signals Brainiac-417 (who’s just finished off Halloween Jack), and before Ghost knows what hit him the Mon’Elves have battered him into unconsciousness.

Yeah, again, Midnighter would be able to hear his heartbeat, and maybe even see him, depending on how good his invisibility is, meaning Mids is not left with just dodging.

This renders Brainy unnecessary, meaning he wouldn't have come along to fight the Ghost and Jack in the first place, since if I could figure that out, he could as well.

vs Xavier-Juggernaut
Doomsday and Juggernaut are a pretty even match – both have top-notch strength and durability. Xavier may have the telepathic edge, but Brainiac can resist it. The main difference is this – Doomsday is a lot faster. Fast enough to take on the Justice League and their multiple super-speedsters. After a bit of a struggle, Doomsday ducks a punch and launches Xavier into the air with an uppercut. Of course, what goes up must come down, and Juggernaut is coming down right on top of Doomsday. Much to Xavier’s surprise, he passes straight through and keeps falling right through the ground. During their struggle Doomsday had planted one of Ghost’s portable phasing units on Juggernauts back. Immune even to air resistance, Juggernaut keeps accelerating towards the earth’s core. By the time he figures out what’s happening, finds the phasing unit, and finds a way to deactivate it (if that’s even possible), he’ll already be buried under miles of earth and rock. Last time that happened [in his What If? appearance] it took him years to get out.

[Normally Ghost’s phasing units are calibrated so only he can touch them to place and remove them – but it’s was a simple mod to make the unit activate on a timer, and Brainiac was smart enough to time his uppercut right before it kicked in.]

First, Xavier would be battering Brainiac's consciousness before they even saw each other. Second, there's the psi-jamming tech 417 gave him which is gonna start trying to eject him from Doomsday immediately.

Now onto your replies to my writeup...

I like the fact that you used Xavier's power-stealing gas against Sue. I've read the Xavier-Juggernaut What If?, but I'd forgotten about Xavier depowering the FF. That said . . . I have a couple (fairly minor) quibbles about the way you used the gas.
-- First, why couldn't Sue's forcefield block it? As I remember the comic, Xavier just surprised the FF with the gas and they were de-powered before they knew what had happened. But here in the DTL I'd think she'd start the battle with her shield up to avoid any surprise attacks.

Well, if you go back and look at the comic, when he walks off and tells his mutants to keep the FF busy, she's got her forcefield up and protecting her from Blob. When he comes back, in the panel right below that, he interrupts the fight by spraying them with gas. I can't imagine WHY she would have her shields down at a time when they were fighting a larger number of dangerous opponents. And, I don't know how it got through her shields. Comic science, dude.

-- Also, I'm not so sure the gas would work on Halloween Jack without modification (and since your team doesn't know Jack, they wouldn't know what mods to make). If I remember the What If?, Xavier drew on Reed's own research on trying to "cure" the Thing when designing the gas, and then tapped into the minds of other geniuses to finish the job. So my interpretation was that the original gas was FF specific. It later showed him using a similar weapon against a couple other super-beings, but my interpretation was he'd studied them and modified it as appropriate. I guess you could instead interpret it as a generic power-removing gas, but the fact that he used other strategies against a number of heroes seems to argue otherwise. (E.g., why rely on blackmail against Spider-man -- threatening to out him to Aunt May -- if he could have just as easily permanently removed his powers?)

It doesn't really suggest to me that he used different gasses for different folks. Also, if you'll notice, he opted for ruining Tony's life, instead of taking him out. Maybe he only used the gas on those heroes who wouldn't be easily blackmailed or otherwise manipulated into quitting. Or maybe the writer was just a Spidey fan, I dunno.

- Hadrian knows Gideon is a "power copier", since that info was provided. Why not just teleport out of range? In fact, once he figures out Gideon is relying on a Mon'Elf and tech he could teleport them away too and leave him powerless.

He could teleport Gideon, but he's never shown the ability to teleport equipment and whatnot off of people from a distance. Meanwhile, it's not like Gideon is just gonna get tossed around. With his own tech, he'll make a bee-line for the nearest hero, and start wreaking havoc from there. And, since he's not an IDiOT, he'd go about finding the teleporter first. Also, how does Hadrian KNOW what Gideon's range is? For all we know, he'd decide the simplest and most effective tactic is to take the copier on directly, and occupy him while the rest of his team takes on mine.

- I think Doomsday has one big advantage on Juggernaut, and that's speed. Juggernaut has never demonstrated the speed to keep up with the likes of Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter -- Doomsday has. Admittedly Juggernaut is probably too invulnerable to be KOed by Doomsday, but Doomsday isn’t going to be knocked out by Juggernaut either. That’s probably why Khell and I both had our guy use tech to take the other guy out – but since Doomsday is faster, I say he’d be the one to spring his tech on his opponent first.

Yeah, but in the What If, it mentions how Xavier could counter every move Doom made against him before he did it. And, yes, Brainiac is a telepath, but against his Xavier his choices either dwindle to letting Xavier's mind in, or letting himself get expelled from DD's mind.

So, anyways, the linchpin in Tim's strategy is that Hadrian will somehow deduce Gideon's range, and keep him out of that, while Gideon is just gonna let himself be bounced around like rubber ball. Very unlikely.

 

[XFanTim]

Yeaaah, you'd better define where the "wings" are she's waiting in, otherwise he just copied her power.

She was hiding invisibly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Gideon's copying is a conscious act -- he wouldn't have copied her until he knew she was there. Anyway it doesn't matter -- Sue's not immune to her own forcefields, so Gideon wouldn't be either.

Also, let us not forget the copy of Brainiac's belt he was given at the beginning. Means he'll be putting himself anywhere on the battlefield he pleases.

In your writeup Brainiac gave them all teleportation devices. I don't have to do mine exactly the same (and my personal preference is to have people mostly rely on their own powers rather than having tech guys give them each a half-dozen new ones). But even if he had teleportation tech, my team could still find ways around it -- e.g., teleport him away from his tech. Hadrian has teleported parts of objects before -- he could certainly teleport Gideon right out of his own clothes if he wanted.

Unless she's within a couple hundred feet of him (not out of the question, tactically, considering how thick the jungle can be), in which case one assumes that someone with the same powerset would be able to see her and her constructs, or sense them somehow.

Again, does he auto-copy her without knowing she's there? Because I asked in the Discussion thread whether Gideon could sense the presence of super-powered people and was told you didn't know. If he could auto-copy her, that would count as "sensing" her, wouldn't it?

Riiight, except he gets the skills and know-how to use the powers as well as the original user, if not better. Which means, the instant he feels the bubbles forming within him he can simply collapse them with his own and do the same to her in return. Stalemate, until he gets bored and teleports away

I don't really think he'd "feel the bubbles forming". Often when someone has a stroke, the first sign is that they become confused or start speaking incoherently -- in other words, they don't feel the blood clot, they just notice once their brain starts running out of oxygen. I figure this would go the same way. By the time he knows what she's doing, he's too far gone to stop it.

Actually, Brainy wouldn't need to use tech. Midnighter's senses would be good enough to at LEAST let him find the Ghost, if not Jack as well, and the instant he knew they were concealed, he'd be peppering the area with explosives.

Ghost's stealth tech is absolutely top notch -- Iron Man's tech has had trouble detecting him. I'm sure Midnighter's senses are great and all, but better than Iron Man's tech? Not sure I buy that.

Also, the mere fact that they weren't where they were supposed to be doesn't mean he'd know they were concealed. My team could have teleported out at the same time your team ported in. Plus even if he did "pepper the area with explosives", it's not that hard to dodge a blind attack -- especially for a shapeshifter and someone who can go intangible.

Also, even if Jack did get the gas off, Chunk could simply react by shunting it to that other world through his body before he had a chance to inhale it.

I pictured it as an invisible gas -- meaning he wouldn't know to shunt it away until it had already affected him. In my writeup he just thought it was the natural smell of the jungle, but even that was a pointless flourish on my part -- really it could have been an odorless, invisible poison. Jack can create any kind of organic poison he wants (I'm not even sure it needs to be organic), he just needs to know its molecular structure. And he has Brainiac to help him pick one during prep-time.

Yeah, again, Midnighter would be able to hear his heartbeat, and maybe even see him, depending on how good his invisibility is, meaning Mids is not left with just dodging.

Ghost's stealth tech must surely be able to mask his heartbeat, or Iron Man and all the high-tech corporations he was up against would be able to catch him with a high-tech microphone.

This renders Brainy unnecessary, meaning he wouldn't have come along to fight the Ghost and Jack in the first place, since if I could figure that out, he could as well.

Well, it's your point of view that Brainy's presence was unnecessary -- in my writeup it certainly didn't pan out that way. I wrote him as making the smarter decision in the context of my interpretation of how the fight would go down.

First, Xavier would be battering Brainiac's consciousness before they even saw each other. Second, there's the psi-jamming tech 417 gave him which is gonna start trying to eject him from Doomsday immediately.

It'd take a lot of battering to have much effect. Doomsday's pretty resistant to telepathy even without Brainiac in him. As for the psi-jamming tech, that's from your writeup -- I'm not really supposed to steal elements from yours in writing mine. But anyway, in my writeup Hadrian was mostly hanging back after setting Gideon up for Malice to take down. If he saw Xavier using some weapon against Doomsday, he could step in and port the weapon away.

Well, if you go back and look at the comic, when he walks off and tells his mutants to keep the FF busy, she's got her forcefield up and protecting her from Blob. When he comes back, in the panel right below that, he interrupts the fight by spraying them with gas. I can't imagine WHY she would have her shields down at a time when they were fighting a larger number of dangerous opponents. And, I don't know how it got through her shields. Comic science, dude.

Eh, sounds inconclusive. Maybe the gas inexplicably passed through her field, or maybe Sue inexplicably lowered the field. I guess it's not the most critical point either way.

It doesn't really suggest to me that he used different gases for different folks. Also, if you'll notice, he opted for ruining Tony's life, instead of taking him out. Maybe he only used the gas on those heroes who wouldn't be easily blackmailed or otherwise manipulated into quitting. Or maybe the writer was just a Spidey fan, I dunno.

Again, it probably could be interpreted either way.

He could teleport Gideon, but he's never shown the ability to teleport equipment and whatnot off of people from a distance.

I'm not the expert on Hadrian, but I know at some point he's teleported "parts" off of an object, since the question of whether he could do this was raised when we were discussing if he should be a medium or uber, and someone gave an example. If he can do that, it stands to reason he could teleport equipment away from someone too. I'm just having him use his powers intelligently.

Anyway, I didn't actually have him teleport equipment off Gideon in my writeup, I'm just pointing out that he could in response to the strategies you used in your writeup.

Meanwhile, it's not like Gideon is just gonna get tossed around. With his own tech, he'll make a bee-line for the nearest hero, and start wreaking havoc from there.

Right, which is why my team dealt with him first. They may not know much about him, but if they know he copies people's powers then that's enough to know he's a major threat.

Also, how does Hadrian KNOW what Gideon's range is?

He doesn't, which is why I had him teleport Gideon a mile up into the air just to be safe. He's assuming Gideon has some range limit (which is a sensible assumption, since my team is obviously ****ed if Gideon's range is infinite). He doesn't know what the range is, so he goes for overkill.

For all we know, he'd decide the simplest and most effective tactic is to take the copier on directly, and occupy him while the rest of his team takes on mine.

Charging straight at someone who can copy your power doesn't strike me as a smart strategy.

Yeah, but in the What If, it mentions how Xavier could counter every move Doom made against him before he did it.[/B] And, yes, Brainiac is a telepath, but against his Xavier his choices either dwindle to letting Xavier's mind in, or letting himself get expelled from DD's mind.

I'm not convinced Xavier could instantly expel him, and as I pointed out Doomsday can act extremely fast.

So, anyways, the linchpin in Tim's strategy is that Hadrian will somehow deduce Gideon's range, and keep him out of that, while Gideon is just gonna let himself be bounced around like rubber ball. Very unlikely.

If he keeps Gideon out of copying range, then Gideon is in pretty serious trouble. And like I said above, he doesn't need to know Gideon's range, he's fine going with a drastic overestimate of that range. Just so long as he doesn't underestimate.

 

[XFanTim]

I probably won't have time to post again tonight, but I'll try to check back tomorrow to see if Khell has posted anything else that I feel the need to respond to.

 

[wiegeabo]

Writeups close in 4 hours.

 

[Khellendros]

She was hiding invisibly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Gideon's copying is a conscious act -- he wouldn't have copied her until he knew she was there. Anyway it doesn't matter -- Sue's not immune to her own forcefields, so Gideon wouldn't be either.

Hitting a random invisible forcefield + Gideons knowledge of the other team + Gideon not being an idiot = he's going to immediately try copying any power source in the area. His power copying a conscious act, but it's based on proximity, not sight. And, yes, I know she's not immune to her bubbles, hence his countering them with his own as well as doing the same to her.

In your writeup Brainiac gave them all teleportation devices. I don't have to do mine exactly the same (and my personal preference is to have people mostly rely on their own powers rather than having tech guys give them each a half-dozen new ones). But even if he had teleportation tech, my team could still find ways around it -- e.g., teleport him away from his tech. Hadrian has teleported parts of objects before -- he could certainly teleport Gideon right out of his own clothes if he wanted.

Hadrian HAS teleported things off of people before, but only ever when they are within his sight.

Again, does he auto-copy her without knowing she's there? Because I asked in the Discussion thread whether Gideon could sense the presence of super-powered people and was told you didn't know. If he could auto-copy her, that would count as "sensing" her, wouldn't it?

Like I said a bit above, if he knows someone is using powers, he can try to copy them. Proximity, not sight. It wouldn't tell him where she was, jsut that she was in range. And, I assume Invisible Woman has SOME way of knowing where her own constructs are, whether i'ts from being able to see them, or some other sense. When he takes her powers, that includes any enhanced or new senses she has.

I don't really think he'd "feel the bubbles forming". Often when someone has a stroke, the first sign is that they become confused or start speaking incoherently -- in other words, they don't feel the blood clot, they just notice once their brain starts running out of oxygen. I figure this would go the same way. By the time he knows what she's doing, he's too far gone to stop it.

Yes, well, MOST people's strokes aren't caused by invisible energy bubbles forming in their brain. Are you saying Invisible Woman has no way of telling WHERE her constructs are?

Ghost's stealth tech is absolutely top notch -- Iron Man's tech has had trouble detecting him. I'm sure Midnighter's senses are great and all, but better than Iron Man's tech? Not sure I buy that.

Nice try, but Iron Man could hear Ghost's heartbeat using his armor's tech. Midnighter's hearing is at least good enough to hear him.

Also, the mere fact that they weren't where they were supposed to be doesn't mean he'd know they were concealed. My team could have teleported out at the same time your team ported in. Plus even if he did "pepper the area with explosives", it's not that hard to dodge a blind attack -- especially for a shapeshifter and someone who can go intangible.

Yes, well, unlike Iron Man, Midnighter's hearing doesn't need to be turned on. If there are heartbeats in the area other than the ones he's familiar with, that's gonna be a big tip off. And if they do dodge/go intangible, that would require Jack turning into something mobile and Ghost becoming visible. Which just puts them at greater risk.

I pictured it as an invisible gas -- meaning he wouldn't know to shunt it away until it had already affected him. In my writeup he just thought it was the natural smell of the jungle, but even that was a pointless flourish on my part -- really it could have been an odorless, invisible poison. Jack can create any kind of organic poison he wants (I'm not even sure it needs to be organic), he just needs to know its molecular structure. And he has Brainiac to help him pick one during prep-time.

Ah, well, even if Chunk goes down, Jack and Ghost are in for one long bastard of a fight, because Midnighter specializes in taking on multiple, super-powered opponents.

Ghost's stealth tech must surely be able to mask his heartbeat, or Iron Man and all the high-tech corporations he was up against would be able to catch him with a high-tech microphone.

Hahaha, have you even read any of the Ghost's appearances? That's EXACTLY how Iron Man was able to find him. He only lost him when Ghost led Tony into an area with a ton of machines and got out of range of his microphones. Unfortunately for Ghost, this is no factory they're fighting in.

Well, it's your point of view that Brainy's presence was unnecessary -- in my writeup it certainly didn't pan out that way. I wrote him as making the smarter decision in the context of my interpretation of how the fight would go down.

Well, hey, if you can invalidate what my team did during prep, I guess I can invalidate you dumbing down my characters.

It'd take a lot of battering to have much effect. Doomsday's pretty resistant to telepathy even without Brainiac in him. As for the psi-jamming tech, that's from your writeup -- I'm not really supposed to steal elements from yours in writing mine. But anyway, in my writeup Hadrian was mostly hanging back after setting Gideon up for Malice to take down. If he saw Xavier using some weapon against Doomsday, he could step in and port the weapon away.

Except the battering would be directed at Brainiac, whose position in Doomsdays mind requires mental energy he would normally dedicate to fending off a telepathic attack. So, if he turns his attention to Xavier, he risks getting expelled. If he doesn't, Xavier can get in and anticipate his next move. It's lose-lose.

Eh, sounds inconclusive. Maybe the gas inexplicably passed through her field, or maybe Sue inexplicably lowered the field. I guess it's not the most critical point either way.

Well, out of the two, it's more likely the gas got through (she does need to breathe, yes?) than she just randomly decided to lower her shield in battle.

I'm not the expert on Hadrian, but I know at some point he's teleported "parts" off of an object, since the question of whether he could do this was raised when we were discussing if he should be a medium or uber, and someone gave an example. If he can do that, it stands to reason he could teleport equipment away from someone too. I'm just having him use his powers intelligently.

He's never demonstrated the ability to teleport objects off of someone's person without them being within eyesight. Now, if he can see them, then sure, he can take off guns, clothes, equipment, whatever. But not if he can't see them.

Right, which is why my team dealt with him first. They may not know much about him, but if they know he copies people's powers then that's enough to know he's a major threat.

First, all they know is he's a power copier. Who's to say they don't just take him on, thinking they can rely on their own skills to outdo him? Second, they know he copies powers, not that he even HAS a limited range, much less what it is. For all they know, all he has to do is see the powers in action to copy them, meaning teleporting him would give him that ability. Your strategy of having Hadrian teleport him away is based on your unconscious use of knowledge about how Gideon's power specifically works, which Hadrian wouldn't have.

He doesn't, which is why I had him teleport Gideon a mile up into the air just to be safe. He's assuming Gideon has some range limit (which is a sensible assumption, since my team is obviously ****ed if Gideon's range is infinite). He doesn't know what the range is, so he goes for overkill.

Why is that a reasonable assumption? Why is that more likely than him copying them based on experiencing their powers in use? Also, let us not forget the Mon Elf, which even you included in your writeup. They aren't gonna be hitting half light speed or anything, but a single mile is not THAT much distance to cover for a guy who can reasonably be expected to hit a few hundred miles an hour.

Charging straight at someone who can copy your power doesn't strike me as a smart strategy.

It is if you don't know that he gains an equal level of skill, and are willing to trust in your own skill, and considerable damage soak, to allow you to keep him from accessing the rest of your team's powers.

I'm not convinced Xavier could instantly expel him, and as I pointed out Doomsday can act extremely fast.

Luckily, I don't need to convince you, just the voters. And, still, even if he isn't instantly expelled, a mental attack from Xavier is NOT gonna be something he can just ignore.

If he keeps Gideon out of copying range, then Gideon is in pretty serious trouble. And like I said above, he doesn't need to know Gideon's range, he's fine going with a drastic overestimate of that range. Just so long as he doesn't underestimate.

Again, see my above comment about the Mon Elf, which we BOTH included in our writeups.

 

[X]

I think I'm going to commit suicide rather than pick between Khell and Tim.

 

[Khellendros]

I think I'm going to commit suicide rather than pick between Khell and Tim.

That's fine. *edits X's will so that he leaves power of attorney and all voting privileges to me*

 

[X]

Holy crap, you've got 200 posts already?!?!

 

[Khellendros]

I know. It's all the arguing I've had to do with you, ****er.

 

[X]

You love it.

You'd be amazed how many ideas and things I've gotten moved through the DTL over the years through my constant *****ing.

 

[Khellendros]

You love it.

You'd be amazed how many ideas and things I've gotten moved through the DTL over the years through my constant *****ing.

No more! I'll not stand for it! *grabs his staff and wizard robes* YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!!