DTL Season 5-Week 1 (Set 4)

[X]

Your dice roll was weak! YOU FAIL.

 

[Khellendros]

Your dice roll was weak! YOU FAIL.

This isn't D&D, nerdfag!

 

[X]

We need to stop posting in this thread! Lets take out gayery elsewhere! *Skips out of thread*

 

[XFanTim]

OK Khell, so it sounds like what you're saying about Gideon is that he would be able to consciously copy Invisible Woman after he realized she was there due to running into her forcefield. That's pretty much what I figured -- you'll note in my writeup I had him try to copy her at that point, but she was too quick and took him down before he could get her. I'm arguing the fact that my team just him him with a ton of explosives and then ran him into a forcefield would daze him enough for Sue to get her hit in first.

Hadrian HAS teleported things off of people before, but only ever when they are within his sight.

He's never demonstrated the ability to teleport objects off of someone's person without them being within eyesight. Now, if he can see them, then sure, he can take off guns, clothes, equipment, whatever. But not if he can't see them.

But he's teleported whole objects that weren't in his line of sight, right? At least we've never had a line-of-sight restriction on him in the DTL -- otherwise, his bump-up to uber would make no sense.

And if he can teleport whole objects that aren't in his line of sight, and he can teleport parts of objects, I don't think it makes sense to assume his ability to teleport parts of objects goes away if they're not in his line of sight.

I assume Invisible Woman has SOME way of knowing where her own constructs are, whether i'ts from being able to see them, or some other sense. When he takes her powers, that includes any enhanced or new senses she has.

Yes, well, MOST people's strokes aren't caused by invisible energy bubbles forming in their brain. Are you saying Invisible Woman has no way of telling WHERE her constructs are?

I assume she knows where her constructs are because she's maintaining them by her own force of will. I don't think she'd be able to automatically detect another Invisible Woman's constructs, which is what you want Gideon to do.

Invisible Woman has an ability to see through invisibility (whether caused by her or not), and I had Gideon try to use this to detect her. But Sue's constructs aren't visible objects that have been concealed -- and anyway, even if they were bright green forcefields she still wouldn't be able to see one inside her own body. You're assuming she has some special construct-detecting sense, which I don't think is true.

Nice try, but Iron Man could hear Ghost's heartbeat using his armor's tech. Midnighter's hearing is at least good enough to hear him.

Yes, well, unlike Iron Man, Midnighter's hearing doesn't need to be turned on. If there are heartbeats in the area other than the ones he's familiar with, that's gonna be a big tip off. And if they do dodge/go intangible, that would require Jack turning into something mobile and Ghost becoming visible. Which just puts them at greater risk.

I haven't read all Ghost's stuff -- I know in one appearance Iron Man had to use radiation to disable Ghost's suit, didn't know he'd been able to hear him. Still, hearing someone in a building isn't the same as hearing him in a noisy jungle with dinosaurs running around.

But anyway, I had Midnighter locate Ghost in my writeup, and Ghost was taken down before he could take anyone out. So if all you're saying is Midnighter should have found him quicker, it doesn't change much.

Ah, well, even if Chunk goes down, Jack and Ghost are in for one long bastard of a fight, because Midnighter specializes in taking on multiple, super-powered opponents.

OK, so they take out Chunk and then get taken out, which is basically how I had it. I guess your point is Midnighter didn't need Brainiac-417's help, which is fine, so Brainiac ends up fighting Hadrian and Doomsday, which is how I had it end up anyway. I don't think Brainiac is good enough to beat both my ubers.

Well, hey, if you can invalidate what my team did during prep, I guess I can invalidate you dumbing down my characters.

I think you're misunderstanding the rules. I'm not supposed to read your writeup until I write mine. It's two independent visions of how the fight would go. So saying "My writeup ignored your prep time" isn't a fair criticism. My only chance to respond to your prep-time and writeup is in the debate, not in my writeup.

Except the battering would be directed at Brainiac, whose position in Doomsdays mind requires mental energy he would normally dedicate to fending off a telepathic attack. So, if he turns his attention to Xavier, he risks getting expelled. If he doesn't, Xavier can get in and anticipate his next move. It's lose-lose.

Even if he does expel Brainiac before Brainy takes him out (which, again, I consider unlikely given Doomsday's speed), he'd still have to fight a dumb Doomsday. I could always use the same strategy except have Hadrian teleport the phasing-unit onto him. Hell, Hadrian could beat Juggernaut one-on-one, since he's immune to Xavier's telepathy, he's fast enough to teleport out of the way of Juggernaut's blows, and can port Xavier-Juggernaut into space (where he was proven helpless in the comic). Hadrian and Doomsday are fast enough to take on Superman-level speedsters, so both have a massive speed advantage on Juggernaut.

First, all they know is he's a power copier. Who's to say they don't just take him on, thinking they can rely on their own skills to outdo him? Second, they know he copies powers, not that he even HAS a limited range, much less what it is. For all they know, all he has to do is see the powers in action to copy them, meaning teleporting him would give him that ability. Your strategy of having Hadrian teleport him away is based on your unconscious use of knowledge about how Gideon's power specifically works, which Hadrian wouldn't have.

I still maintain that if all you know is that someone "copies powers", fighting him head-to-head isn't smart. And my team is smart.

As for why they assume he has a limited range, it's just logic. Here's how I see their reasoning:
(1) Gideon copies powers. Suppose he has no range limit. Then he can copy my whole team from the get go, meaning we have virtually no chance of winning.
(2) If we suppose he has a range limit, and we're right, we've gained an edge.
(3) If we suppose he has a range limit, and we're wrong, we're probably screwed, but we would have been screwed even before we made that incorrect supposition [see point (1)]. In other words, our incorrect assumption cost us nothing.
Short version: My team might as well assume Gideon has a range limit, because that's really there only chance.

Why is that a reasonable assumption? Why is that more likely than him copying them based on experiencing their powers in use?

The most rational approach for my characters isn't to decide what's most likely (which they have no way of knowing), it's too make the assumption that costs them the least. Assuming he has a range limit costs them nothing, since if he doesn't have a range limit they're already screwed.

As for your suggestion that maybe he copies powers when they're used on him, in my writeup they covered their bases by first trying to take him out with conventional explosives rather than using their powers. When that didn't work, they had no choice but to use Invisible Woman's powers.

Also, let us not forget the Mon Elf, which even you included in your writeup. They aren't gonna be hitting half light speed or anything, but a single mile is not THAT much distance to cover for a guy who can reasonably be expected to hit a few hundred miles an hour.

Hence the invisible forcefield.

Luckily, I don't need to convince you, just the voters. And, still, even if he isn't instantly expelled, a mental attack from Xavier is NOT gonna be something he can just ignore.

(1) If Doomsday-Brainiac is so weak to telepathy, Martian Manhunter could beat him by himself. MM has multiple Xavier level telepathic feats. And yet, Doomsday kicks his ass. (2)Xavier only acts at the speed of thought, and Superman-level speedsters like Doomsday act much quicker than ordinary human thought. So I'm not sure he even gets the chance to mount a significant mental attack. (3) Even if he somehow beats Doomsday, Xavier's telepathy can't affect machines like Hadrian, who with his speed/quickness should never get caught by Juggernaut.

 

[XFanTim]

The Main Point
I think Khell is right that my writeup hinges on the quick take down of Gideon. If Gideon goes down, then Xavier-Juggernaut isn't beating Hadrian (see my previous post for the reasons). I don't think he's beating Doomsday either, but he's definitely not beating Hadrian. And after the ubers fall, my team has an overwhelming advantage. The side debates like "would Midnighter kill Ghost in 5 seconds or 30 seconds" don't matter so much.

So that's the question: Could my team take down Gideon? I say yes. I tried not to be overly cheap with my teams strategy, but if I didn't care about that, it's even easier. Consider:
(1) Whatever Gideon's copying range may be, it's not as great as Hadrian's teleport range.
(2) Hadrian can teleport Gideon 50 miles from everyone else and drop a brachiosaurus on his head. (That should take him down even with a Mon'Elf -- and I'm not sure Hadrian would accidentally port the Mon'Elf along anyway.)
(3) No, my team doesn't know he has a range limit, but as I outlined above:
It's logical to assume he has a range limit, not because this is necessarily the most likely case, but because assuming this costs them nothing. If they're wrong, they're ****ed anyway.

Even if they think he only gets the teleportation power after Hadrian uses it on him, they still might as well use it, because Gideon could already get teleportational powers from Chunk. So attacking him with teleportation gives him nothing, and if he does have a range limit then porting him away gives them a huge edge.

In other words, even though my team doesn't know he has a range limit, the smartest strategy is to port him far away and hope he has a range limit. If he doesn't have a limit then they're no more screwed than they already were.

As it happens, he does have a limit, which is why he loses. They can port him directly into the path of an attack. It doesn't have to be a brachiosaurus like I used above. Just port him right into the path of a punch from Doomsday and he's KOed. Khell himself admitted Gideon's copying is a conscious act, and he's not fast enough to copy Doomsday's durability before the punch lands. Brachiosaurus is a safer strategy, though, because my team might be worried about Gideon automatically copying Doomsday (since they don't know how his power works).

Hell, with a days prep they could probably put together a big enough cache of explosives to take him out, too, assuming all he has is a Mon'Elf. I just gave him the benefit of the doubt by having him survive the explosives in my writeup. Like I said, trying not to be too cheap.

 

[DTL Commish]

Debates are now over.

Voting may begin.

_____________________________

 

[Kaboom]

xfantim

 

[Nightwing]

The Immortals vs. The Deadly Dozen - ok another good battle.For this one i wasnt a hundred percent on all the characters used (like every week for me really) but i am going off not only the debates but also what knowledge i have AND the bios and extra info that was provided and i give my vote to.........The Deadly Dozen (who in this case are only 5 but we wont highlight Tims flaw in his team name considering his team will never fight as a dozen )

 

[Who?]

Damn hard choice but I think Tim wins.

I think Tims plan to take Gid out would work.

 

[Harlekin]

(Set 4)
The Immortals vs The Deadly Dozen

This a tough one. I think Khell/Ahura went a little overboard with the giving of tech to his teammates. Still, his strategies were largely sound. On the other hand, I felt XFanTim utilized the team aspect a bit more in the battle itself. Ultimately, both write-ups were excellent and it had to come down to rebuttles. The stickler was Gideon, and I have to side with Tim on that one. Still, strong first showing.

 

[X]

Khell - You went bat**** crazy with your prep-time, dude. Simmer down.

As for Gideon not being an idiot... He sadly is. Evident by him turning his back on Magneto after having him beaten, losing to Night Thrasher, getting killed by his inferior (Selene) and so on)

Also, Hadrian HAS teleported things that he hasn't been able to see. He's done planetary level teleportation feats while barely paying attention, if I'm remembering correctly.

 

[X]

I'm voting for The Deadly Dozen.

Tim just barely squeaked by this time.

Sorry, Khell. Don't get discouraged. It's only week one, and Tim's won this entire thing before. You had an amazing first go.

 

[Khellendros]

Actually, Ahura went "bat****" with our preptime. But, hey, I signed off on it too, so whatever. Maybe a list of dos and don'ts for prep time would be helpful.

Also, did you just use an AOA feat for 616 Gideon??

Also, Hadrian HAS teleported things that he hasn't been able to see. He's done planetary level teleportation feats while barely paying attention, if I'm remembering correctly.

No one knows that better than me. Yes, he's teleported people to him without knowing where they are, but never done **** like teleporting guns out of their hands, or equipment off of their person, without looking right at them.

 

[X]

Considering "beating" Magneto is probably his best showing ever?

Sure, why not be generous to Gideon.

 

[wiegeabo]

The Dirty Dozen

This is one of those matches where I wish we were still doing the scoring system because the decision was so close.

 

[X]

Yeah, agreed on that...

 

[Dark Gog]

The Deadly Dozen. I really like Tim's strategies, even against an exceptionally stacked team.

I don't think I'll get to the other matches today, but I'll and give them a quick look and see.

 

[DTL Commish]

Voting is now over.

Final results:

The Immortals 0
The Deadly Dozen 5

 

[X]

Why in the **** did only five people vote in this thread?

You should have to vote in all threads for it to count, me thinks.

 

[wiegeabo]

Why in the **** did only five people vote in this thread?

You should have to vote in all threads for it to count, me thinks.

I'd be willing to let it slide this one time, unless it screws up tie-breakers. Then I might force everyone to vote in all the other threads.

 

[X]

I think it should be pretty strongly encouraged, regardless.

Matches could go one way or another simply because people can't spare a little time and vote in all the weekly threads.

 

[XFanTim]

Great match, Khell. I feel fortunate to have come away with the victory. Keep this up and I think you'll roll through a lot of the people in this thing.

I'd be willing to let it slide this one time, unless it screws up tie-breakers. Then I might force everyone to vote in all the other threads.

More voting would be nice, but don't worry too much about tie breakers -- we can always track the percentage of votes a person got, and use that as a tie breaker instead -- e.g. 5 out of 5 would beat 6 out of 8.