DTL Season 5-Week 4 (Set 3)

[Aristotle]

And she didn't convert him to their side, just kind of made him dumber. Fact is, there's no reason to think that she's that good at mind control.

First, I don't have her CONVERTING him. I have her keeping him away from her teammates. Second, she HAS converted people. Several times.

You misunderstand my point about Darkchylde and Elijah Snow. She'd never enter that fight when she's more useful helping Doomsday against Zatanna.

She can't keep him in the air, therefore she is not useful at all. She stays in the air, Doomsday's just a helpless little ***** down there, and she's taking potshots. All she REALLY has to do is cut the connection, making him a dangerous devil. Then Zee just blasts the **** out of Darkchylde, keeping her on the defensive, while Doomsday, now just a mindless rampager again, kills the **** out of Darkchylde. THEN Zatanna controls Doomsday's mind. Is THAT how you'd rather see that fight go down? Either way, my guys are on top.

If you want to say Elijah Snow should have killed her at the point I had them fight, rather than it falling to Batman to do it, that's fine with me. By then the damage to Zatanna was done.

And I say that ain't no reg, what can just SHUT DOWN any magic character on the field. "Oh, Dr. Fate? Nope, Soul Sword. What, you got Tony Stark, Sorceror Supreme? Yeah, but I've got me this reg here, with a Soul Sword. What's that you say? You got God on your side? Too bad, I got a Soul Sword. Yeah, you're ****ed."

I'm calling bull**** on that. Like you say: you call her a reg, you best play her like a reg. Zatanna slices Brainy away from Doomsday, Doomsday attacks Darkchylde, Zatanna attacks Darkchylde, and Darkchylde's one dead mother****er.

No way, they both have a high-degree of control over their powers, Magneto especially. They won't be accidentally hitting each other.

Chase has a distortion FIELD. It's not a moldable shape, as I understand it. As for Magneto, when you're throwing **** around, there's a chance you hit someone else. But that wasn't even the main point. My real argument there was something entirely different, and I notice you largely ignore it.

Magneto's forcefield pointing the wrong way? Nope, it extends all the way around him, and as I've said he'd have it up at the battle's start.

You didn't indicate that in your writeup. Neither of our writeups showed him starting with a forcefield, therefore he doesn't have it up at the start. And Apollo gets the jump on him.

Even with Apollo's speed, he's not instantaneously getting through Mags shield, which gives my team a chance to strike back. Again, here's where teamwork is essential.

Apollo hits him once and keeps moving. OK, that didn't work, hit him again and keep moving. Apollo never stops moving, that's the key here. He doesn't stand there and pound on the forcefield. He keeps moving around so he can't be targeted. That's what a smart fighter would do. A smart fighter would not stand there like a little punk ***** when a building was brought down on him and NOT USE HIS SUPERSPEED TO ESCAPE IT.

My team not waiting around? What did Ambrose do before he was taken out?

Spent about three minutes trying to find someone. He's just a guy walking around.

What did Magneto do until Doomsday was turned against him?

Spent about a minute, even less time, trying to find someone. He, too, is just a guy walking around.

If you make the timeline compressed enough, it doesn't seem like that much waiting, but it doesn't change the fact that your team got to initiate virtually every fight.

Nobody TRULY initiates the Flash-Zoom fight. Zatanna and Apollo vs. Doomsday and Mags, we initiated, but that was the plan--get up high and find that **** quick. Then take him out. The way it went down with Mags was a bonus that happened as a result of the organic flow of a battle.

Ambrose Chase wouldn't work with them?Ambrose isn't evil, but he's not a hero either.

Wait, former leader of Planetary isn't a hero? He may not be Superman, but he's at least an anti-hero. He doesn't **** with people like Brainiac, Doomsday, Magneto, and Zoom.

What's important for my purposes is that he's willing to kill when necessary, which he certainly is. Anyway, he doesn't know much about his teammates and their past evil deeds, since he's from a different universe.

You don't think he'd be able to tell? You don't think THEY'D be able to tell, from the way he would talk about Apollo? It's not that hard, I think.

And they'd be smart enough to keep certain details to themselves unless they're sure he'd react favorably.

Why are they keeping anything from him? They don't know HIM either. They're all *******s--why wouldn't they assume that they were lined up with another *******?

Besides, to hear Magneto tell it he's the champion for poor oppressed mutants in the Marvel Universe, and Ambrose isn't going to know any better.

Magneto also has never been shy about boasting about his METHODS. Those, Chase would notice.

Anyway, if people are absolutely unwilling to buy that my team would cooperate with any semblance of teamwork

I didn't see no SEMBLANCE of teamwork. I just said Chase wouldn't roll with them, and the rest would probably have a pretty good degree of mistrust.

But if you're not willing to buy into a villain team ever using decent teamwork, we might as well not even have any villain teams in this thing.

A villain team that doesn't know each other from Adam, a villain team made up of people with VERY different motivations, a villain team with an actual HERO? Yes, I'm not willing to buy that being an effective team. Not compared to five heroes, all of whom have been willing to go to extreme lengths to accomplish their goals of heroism.

 

[Aristotle]

Finally spilled onto a third page. That was just getting ridiculously long.

 

[X]

Nah, it's fine, honestly.

 

[X]

Er... Feedback on my write-up?

Anyone?

 

[X]

Also, Ronan taking apart technology isn't something I came up with. He's done it in comic to technology a lot more advanced than the Blue Beetles.

 

[Aristotle]

I'll get around to feedback after I get over the malaise induced by the opposing team's no-show.

 

[Dark Gog]

I hate the thought of letting another match be abandoned, and I'd rather not post another full write-up when my opponent has none, so, for now, here's my strategy in bullet-points. Hopefully Who? can either do the same when he gets to it, or at-least challenge some of my tactics.

Firstly though, I already notified Who? about it via PMs, but under Firestorm's description, where it says "(creating new bodies out of fire?)", ignore and substitute that, being fundamently an energy being, he can regenerate damage with a thought, and switch from matter to energy.


Prep:

My initial moves are simple --

• Survey the area for any useful technology.
  
• Peer into the future through the Gemstones, using Mother Boxes to better sift through the information, and studying future versions of our own monitoring equipment set-up inside Zemo's Folding Castle to observe the battle. Lightray and Reed at-least should also prove beneficial here, the first due to his ability to process information at the speed of light, and the second simply due to his innate genius.
  
• If the Watcher's base is technically available, my team immediately transports itself on site and destroys it -- and all it contains -- with extreme prejuidice. I just see it as a needless complication, and to the best of my knowledge, what can found there is largely undefined.

Further steps:

• Creating a device to convert either Lightray's power or the Moonstones into an EMP that will activate with the bell, doing as much damage as possible to all electronic equipment in the area, and simultaneously transmitting a virus of Reed's design to further hamper tech-users.
  
• Converting or replacing Mother Boxes on the field to serve as a trap for Cyborg, should he attempt to control or possibly escape into one. This is actually a fairly standard tactic in comics against energy beings, and accomplished here through the cooperation of the world's smartest man Reed Richards and Scott Free, the Spirit of Freedom. Note also that Mother Boxes draw energies from The Source, where Cyborg had already been contained before.
  
  [*)Shielding the Moonstones, in a manner similar to the last round.

Fights

In very broad terms, my plan is for Ligthray to immediately radiate red sun-light, using Firestorm to generate initial power if he's already using his own to power the EMP. It's not wholly outside the realm of possibility my team may be able to discover the correct wave-lengths for Kryptonite radiation during prep.

My top three heavy-hitters are all highly manuverable, and capabale of both manipulating light and operating under extreme exposure to it. In contrast, Bloodstrike enjoys no such immunity that I know of, and clearly relies on a weapon to be effective. It shouldn't prove difficult for any of those three to seperate him from it, and he can't very well hand it to anyone else on his team without immediately jumping them in rank.

My Regulars are waiting in the wings, either in Zemo's Folding Castle or the Microverse. Locust should be temporarily disabled by the discharge of light. Savage will be monitored. This is one case where my team should actually know more about a character than I do.

Zemo has actually dispersed an Elder of the Universe through time. Bringing-down Cyborg should not be outside his means, if it comes-down to it.


Team Dynamics

I am given to understand Doom has mellowed with the years, but facing Richards is still likely to bring-out the worst in him. It's certain to be on Mr. Fantastic's mind, who has personally reached a boiling-point in his relationship with Victor, and will nowadays go to any lengths to keep him from his family.

Elsewhere, Who's team is unlikely to fully trust each other, whereas my team is of a far more similar and heroic bent, and are by now mostly familiar with one another. It is in Zemo's nature to form far more mismatched groups into cohesive units.




Well there you have it. This is obviously only a stub, and lacking both citatations and explicit attention to the more elaborate tactics at Who's disposal, but it's better than nothing.

 

[Aristotle]

Oh hey, one more thing about the Blue Area: since Attilan is there now...would there really be Kree weaponry lying around anymore? Tim used a Kree weapon in his writeup, but would it be there in Attilan?

 

[Who?]

Sorry for the delay everyone.

Team

A lot of people will ask what kind of team is this? How can this team even work? Why are you so awesome? And to be honest I don't have an answer to the last question. I guess I was just born this awesome. The other two I do have answers to though. This is a team made up of guys(and a gal) willing to go that extra length. In other words they are willing to kill. This team has some serious psychotic mother****ers but that is nothing special to the two grand manipulators Doom and Savage. Manipulating Hank, Bloodstrike, and Locus into fighting as a team will be easy work for them. Hank wants to die and Savage is the one person in the dtl that can find him that everlasting death. Bloodstrike is a gun that Doom and Savage can point and shoot at their enemies. Locus has been with team before so she is no problem. Doom and Savage will not like each other but will be all to willing to work together to accomplish their goals.

Prep

There is a decent amount of tech on the moon for my team to take advantage of. Cyborgs ability to manipulate tech/machines and create virtually anything he can think of tech-wise will come in quite handy here especially with Doom using his technopathy to show him what to create.

Doom has him make com-links for the team, teleportation units similar to Savages for Hank and himself, a scanner, a psonic devise similar to Iron Man's for Doom, a cloaking device, a brain-mine, and several Doom-bots. At this point Hank activates every piece of tech in the area. Using the Sinestro rings to help power the machines he is ready. It is battle time.

Battle

The team scans the area for the other team. Spotting Zemo and Firestorm should be easy business considering their power. Hank quickly grabs the bloodaxe from Bloodstrike and teleports to engage Zemo. Doom teleports himself and a very pissed Bloodstrike to Firestorms location. Locus and Vandal Savage are left with Lightray, Reed, and Miracle.

Cybor Superman vs. Moonstone Zemo

Cyborg quickly attacks Zemo with yellow constructs, the Doom-bots, and any other weapon that he found(I am sure there is Kree tech there). While Zemo can handle most of that it will be for the most part a distraction. Hank has hidden the Bloodaxe within one of the constructs he is sending after Zemo. While Zemo is getting hammered on all sides Hank will send the Bloodaxe to destroy the moonstones. As the construct nears Zemo it unsheaths the ax and swipes at the moonstones. If this does not destroy them Hank quickly uses the psonic device to destroy them. (We have seen Iron Man use a similar device to shatter a diamond). Zemo's CA is most certainly a problem but it was nowhere near perfect. We saw Falcon's bird actually nab both Zemo's moonstones, we also saw Songbird destroy the moonstones, he failed to see Janice's stick falling into the Wellspring, and he failed to see that it was going to both diperse the Well's energies. All four times Zemo was caught clueless. At this point Zemo will be destroyed by Hank.


Vandal Savage (one million) and Locus vs. Mr. Fantastic, Mr. Miracle, and Lightray

Using stealth Savage finds the other members. Savage spots Lightray flying around(attempting to find my team no doubt) with his scanner. He knows that Locus won't be able to tag Lightray but he will know she can open a portal and close it. Savage has had experience with speedsters before and will have an idea of what to do. He watches Lightray for a moment and then has Locus open a portal at a certain point in the sky and has her close it immediately. We see that Lightray has been cut in two. Locus is shocked that Savage was able to pinpoint Lightrays flight path/time. Savage then has her go aid her teammates as he deals with the last two.
Savage surprises Reed and Miracle by teleporting right on top of them. Savage(sporting his Omicron knife suit) quikly cuts Miracles arm off and shoots some blades right through Reed(the blades on the knife suit have been stated to be sharp enough to cut someones soul). Savage in good form stabs Miracle through the chest and then cuts him in half. He then teleports literally on top of Reed and places a blade directly into his head.

Bloodstrike and Doom 2099 vs. Firestorm

Bloodstrike attacks Firestorm in a fury. Doom has told him that Firestorm must fall for him to regain the Bloodaxe. Bloodstrike knows he only has 60 seconds before he reverts to Thunderstrike. Bloodstrike blasts Firestorm sending him to the ground where he quickly attacks him. The savagery of Bloodstrikes attack surprises and overwhelms Firestorm but before Bloodstrike can land the final blow he turns into Thunderstrike. Firestorm blasts TS off of him and flys to the air. Firestorm prepares to finsh the fight but is stopped by a horrible pain in his head. Doom had been floating above the fight watching and waiting for the moment to use the brain mine. That moment came. Firestorm loses all control of his powers and is put down from a Doom powered blast. Locus arrives to find her help was not needed.

 

[Aristotle]

Hey Gog, any chance of maybe getting more detailed with it? I think I like your plan better, but without any specifics of how it goes down, I can't really vote for it.

 

[Who?]

Source? Source Wall?

Yep, he was trapped there but he actually learned how to manipulate and control it.

Can you do that?

Can you destroy stuff on the battlefield during your prep? Do you have the firepower to destroy the Watchers base?

To virus or not to virus.

A device that unleashes an emp while it send out a virus... Is this an actual device that has been used? Or are you just saying it is Reed so he should be able to do it?

I am also not sure if the emp will have any effect on most the tech with the Qwardian energy running through it.

Kryptonite and red sun light = ouch?

Yep, that would effect Hank but how much is arguable. With the qwardian power flowing through him whatever the green K or red sun-light takes from him he can simply refill himself(or re-amp) with the 6-10 Sinestro rings he has.

It is also very arguable if either will actually have any effect on Hank while he wields the rings.

Light hurts?

Thunderstrike has actually faced two light powered heroes before. He absorbed the light with his mace.

Also to point out that Hank is not actually wielding the Bloodaxe but instead using it as a projectile to pierce the well guarded moonstones.

Can you hide them?

You have your regs off in Zemo's castle and/or in the microverse. Is it allowed to hide your team outside of the battlefield? If so that is interesting. I will most certainly use that in future battles.

Zemo...

While your team should have decent teamwork the one chink in it is Zemo. Reed sure as hell didn't trust them when they asked for his aid in capturing vilians and I am sure he will be even more untrusting of Zemo after he tried to take the Wellsprings energy for himself.

 

[XFanTim]

I'm back. I'll post at least one more reply today, but I'm pretty busy with work. I guess if you're already convinced to vote for me, there's no need to wait.

 

[Dark Gog]

1) I'm not sure exactly why you think Scott would be so easily to tag or handle. He wasn't for Orion. Hell, I think he used to have an electronic "Spider-Sense" rigged into his cloak.

2) Bloodaxe can't actually do much of anything to Firestorm physically. He was involved with Brimstone in a fight that actually shook the sun, and can readily regenerate lost limbs, change shape, or simply phase through the attacks. Why he cannot simply seperate Masterson from the mace and Axe using promethium or adamantium constructs is a mystery to me at this point.

By "brain mine", I assume you mean something like the Eternal device? How has Doom come by that knowledge? And what makes you think it should work on an energy being?

3) It took a few moments, but Lightray was able to locate Darkseid and Metron when they did not want to be found, and had the entire planet of Apokolips to hide on. I am not yet ready to believe Savage or the rest of your team are as capable as either, when it comes to stealth technology.

And can he really scan for a man-shaped target flying at between hypersonic and light speeds at-least a thousand miles over his head?


Needless to say, I believe that it will be a while before my team has to worry about most of your tech coming into play again either way.

If this does not destroy them Hank quickly uses the psonic device to destroy them. (We have seen Iron Man use a similar device to shatter a diamond).

Psionic device?

Even if you can pass-off stealing the Bloodaxe provided you don't extensively use it, damaging the Moonstones isn't actually a simple thing to accomplish. Zemo was shocked when The Grandmaster managed to chip one, but still managed to hold it together for the remainder of the fight. (I'm guessing it's the fact that he was no longer concentrating as fully that made him so helpless when Songbird shattered them, and possibly the fact that he was balancing the full power of the Wellspring through them at that point. Then again, it's also true she just did far more damage to them than The Grandmaster.)

I'm further protecting them with a similar armor to the one Lightray made Orion for his fight with Darkseid, anyway.

Zemo's CA is most certainly a problem but it was nowhere near perfect. We saw Falcon's bird actually nab both Zemo's moonstones, we also saw Songbird destroy the moonstones, he failed to see Janice's stick falling into the Wellspring, and he failed to see that it was going to both diperse the Well's energies. All four times Zemo was caught clueless. At this point Zemo will be destroyed by Hank.[/SIZE]

It's not perfect, true, but in this case, he's using it to see a time only little more than a day away at most, and has the further means that I established to make better use of them.

It's also true that he'd successfully used them to defeat a being that was both more powerful and had true Cosmic Awareness in Photon.

Also, in regards your specific examples, Zemo didn't actually seem to care that Falcon got the Stones away. He was still perfectly capable of using them. I'm actually not sure he was truly taken aback by Joystick breaking free at all. Maybe in so far as the specific applications of her staff, but he'd clearly set his plan with Overmind in order before hand, and always knew there'd come the specific moment in which Melissa would betray him.

I consider it entirely possible he was setting himself up to be the hero.

It's only the exact manner Songbird'd beaten him in that he was blind to, in her actions, and that because as she mentions, he was just too arrogant to believe she could bring him down in such a trivial manner. But there's nothing mundane about the Bloodaxe or a fight with Cyborg Superman, and again, my team mechanically processed the data to achieve better results.

Source? Source Wall?

Yep, he was trapped there but he actually learned how to manipulate and control it.].

Well I can't really counter that. I don't know any of the details. I can, however, point-out Source energy was never as importain to that plan as using an intelligent and advanced piece of more-than-just-tech as a temporary or permanent containment device designed by Miracle and Fantastic. Scott Free, again, is the world's formost escape artist, and the man who broke the lock on Heaven's gates (as well as tested the Watchtower's defence systems?)

Can you destroy stuff on the battlefield during your prep?

I don't really see why not. It would be one thing if either one of us had actually planned on using it, but so long as it's not meant as an offensive action, bigger alterations have probably been made to the field before.

We can get there rather fast at that. Reed's already been there, and Zemo can transport the lot directly.

Do you have the firepower to destroy the Watchers base?

As far as I know. Firestorm can just transmute it all into air, and worse comes to worse, Zemo could displace it in time.

A device that unleashes an emp while it send out a virus... Is this an actual device that has been used? Or are you just saying it is Reed so he should be able to do it?

Reed's made extensive use of EMPs before. As you may recall, he was rigging one on the field the last time he faced Doom. As far as hacking more advanced systems, he took-down the TVA's networks, which branch infinitely, with minimal prep (somewhere around FF #354, I think). If you're asking whether the two can really be combined, well, the EMP itself will obviously be safe, so transmitting from it as it works should be possible, for whatever good it will do. I did consider having the virus emitted either an instant before or after the pulse, possibly continuosly, but obviously I kept my run-down short in the end.

I am also not sure if the emp will have any effect on most the tech with the Qwardian energy running through it.

Why wouldn't it? It's not like it's drawing any energy from it. To the contrary, it aims to fry its circuits.

Kryptonite and red sun light = ouch?

Yep, that would effect Hank but how much is arguable. With the qwardian power flowing through him whatever the green K or red sun-light takes from him he can simply refill himself(or re-amp) with the 6-10 Sinestro rings he has.

I'm not sure Kryptonite can really be compensated for so readily. It's physically hazardous to Kryptonians, not just the equivelant of an energy drain.t Plus, isn't red sunlight now back to actively depowering Superman again? Obviously the Ring makes a difference. In-fact, I was thinking he'd probably be shielded in some manner. But I figured Zemo's warps can ensure he gets a hefty level of exposure to both types of radiation.

It is also very arguable if either will actually have any effect on Hank while he wields the rings.

Err.. why?

Light hurts?

It can certainly prove debilitating.

Thunderstrike has actually faced two light powered heroes before. He absorbed the light with his mace.

But, I'm guessing it did not actively begin to do so until he was attacked in this manner and made a conscious decision to absorb it? How much light are we talking about at any rate? And was it some kind of energy attack, or did he drain all/most ambient light from the area?

Also to point out that Hank is not actually wielding the Bloodaxe but instead using it as a projectile to pierce the well guarded moonstones.

Can you hide them?

You have your regs off in Zemo's castle and/or in the microverse. Is it allowed to hide your team outside of the battlefield? If so that is interesting. I will most certainly use that in future battles.

Here's what Tim had to say about it:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=13179514&highlight=dimension*#post13179514

Well, I'll respond for the benefit of other people. The standard DTL rule is you can leave the field of battle, you just can't leave it abandoned. I.e., if you have no conscious characters left on the battlefield, then you've lost -- but if you want to have some of your characters take their fight into space, or port into other dimensions or what have you, that's still allowed. Likewise, if someone ports you away but you have the power to return, you have the opportunity to do so -- you aren't instantly disqualified for leaving the field of play.

I can easily shield them from the initial conflict and move them a moment or so later if I still have to have them on the field at the kick-off.

Zemo...

A few problems with that argument:

-They've already had time to iron those things out somewhat in a previous round.

-Zemo happens to have the convenient measure of sharing the visions he glimpses through the Moonstones. This is both a device he's already employed for similar ends, and something I was planning already, albeit for different reasons. Naturally, it helps as well that he is actually being honest.

-Reed's most crucial contributions come during prep, and I have him doing nothing there that he should have any major reservations about sharing with Zemo.

-Most Thunderbolts teams hardly trusted the guy in the first place. That still didn't stop him from getting results.

 

[Dark Gog]

I'm back. I'll post at least one more reply today, but I'm pretty busy with work. I guess if you're already convinced to vote for me, there's no need to wait.

I just assumed the call for votes was a mistake. Even going by the first post in this thread, voting is only due to start today.

 

[Aristotle]

Yeah, I suppose it is, isn't it? Huh. Well, he did officially open voting. Anyway, if voting is open, I'm voting for Gog.

 

[Dark Gog]

I take it you've enough details now to go by? Because I was actually gonna do a quick mock-fight, but this certainly saves time..

For the record, I see Doom finally overcoming Reed's virus and rigging his armor back up on reserve power, all the while ranting repeatedly about how the future owes him for destroying that accursed Richards in the first place, and how now he must perish twice. Than he makes a grab for the Moonstones using some elaborate device that doesn't work because he'd never actually seen them before, and is promptly sent-off the battle-field by Zemo.

Locust can quite reasonably be expected to go blind just from the opening salvo, but we'll just say that she is ineffective in that environment and taken-down by.. oh, let's say Scott.

Savage.. well I don't know anything about that Savage, really. That's always been the problem. But he is still being closely monitored by my team, who know far more about him than I do. Maybe a Reg cuts his armor off using the Bloodaxe.

Gravity manipulation, matter rearrangemt, spatial warps, and a speedster on the opposing team, all good reasons why Masterson wouldn't be effective here, provided Cyborg doesn't actually take his axe away with the bell as Who's intending.

Cyborg is bound to get a speach at some point from Stein on how he'd once fought a machine that was programmed to think, and how Henshaw made the other way around, starting-off as human, but turning into a cold, emotionless machine. He'd probably wish he were dead at that point, but I can imagine Stein or Lightray finding themselves in trouble with him first, gritting their teeth, and reciting the GL Oath at him before that. Maybe he'll take one of them with him.

 

[Aristotle]

I take it you've enough details now to go by? Because I was actually gonna do a quick mock-fight, but this certainly saves time..

Your second-round response convinced me, and this post kept it going.

 

[Who?]

1) I'm not sure exactly why you think Scott would be so easily to tag or handle. He wasn't for Orion. Hell, I think he used to have an electronic "Spider-Sense" rigged into his cloak.

Savage has screwed up 853rd century tech on the spot. On hand he has a bio mech virus which wrecked RM's Resurrector device. New God tech was actually quite common in the future. We saw regular people with boom tubes in Shazam(1million).

2) Bloodaxe can't actually do much of anything to Firestorm physically. He was involved with Brimstone in a fight that actually shook the sun, and can readily regenerate lost limbs, change shape, or simply phase through the attacks. Why he cannot simply seperate Masterson from the mace and Axe using promethium or adamantium constructs is a mystery to me at this point.

In one of his greatest battles of all time he did that. He has had trouble physically by much less. Hyena(I believe that was the name) gave him more then a little trouble.

Thor tried to seperate the axe and mace from Masterson before using force and failed.

On top of that Bloodstrikes energy attack has proven not only to be able to hurt Seth but flat out destroy him. Those will most certainly hurt Firestorm.

And finally Bloodstrike mace could actually absorb Firestorm with him being an energy being and all. We saw how badly Thor screwed up the Presence when he used his hammer to absorb his energy.

By "brain mine", I assume you mean something like the Eternal device? How has Doom come by that knowledge? And what makes you think it should work on an energy being?

Doom has working knowledge on both the Eternals and Deviants.

What makes you think it wouldn't? It works on more then just a physical level.

3) It took a few moments, but Lightray was able to locate Darkseid and Metron when they did not want to be found, and had the entire planet of Apokolips to hide on. I am not yet ready to believe Savage or the rest of your team are as capable as either, when it comes to stealth technology.

Again. Vandal Savage comes from a place where New God and Apokolipton tech is something normal people have on them. Nowhere near their state of the art tech.

And can he really scan for a man-shaped target flying at between hypersonic and light speeds at-least a thousand miles over his head?

You forget he messed with the Flash rather badly thousands of years beforehand. He admittedly has upgraded his own body throughout the years. It is not hard to believe it is something he could do.

Psionic device?

Damn You!!! Haha.

Even if you can pass-off stealing the Bloodaxe provided you don't extensively use it, damaging the Moonstones isn't actually a simple thing to accomplish. Zemo was shocked when The Grandmaster managed to chip one,

Chip one? Yeeeaah, he actually shattered it with one blast.

but still managed to hold it together for the remainder of the fight.

In part because he actually was using more then just the moonstones but was tapping into the Wellspring's energies.

(I'm guessing it's the fact that he was no longer concentrating as fully that made him so helpless when Songbird shattered them, and possibly the fact that he was balancing the full power of the Wellspring through them at that point. Then again, it's also true she just did far more damage to them than The Grandmaster.)

The first part is nothing more then speculation. I do agree that she managed to do quite a bit more damage. Destroying both. Even the one that Zemo was using his power to hold together.

I'm further protecting them with a similar armor to the one Lightray made Orion for his fight with Darkseid, anyway.

Something the bloodaxe would be able tro pierce.

How much damage did Orion do to the armor?

It's also true that he'd successfully used them to defeat a being that was both more powerful and had true Cosmic Awareness in Photon.

Genis was more then a little ****ed up at the time. Zemo also was messing with him for a little while.

Also, in regards your specific examples, Zemo didn't actually seem to care that Falcon got the Stones away.

It surprised him and several of the heroes actually landed blows before he called the stones back to him.

I'm actually not sure he was truly taken aback by Joystick breaking free at all.

Considering he failed to stop the staff from falling into the Wellspring I am betting he didn't expect it. Which would make the most sense as Joystick was actually bragging about how Zemo hadn't seen it coming.

But there's nothing mundane about the Bloodaxe or a fight with Cyborg Superman, and again, my team mechanically processed the data to achieve better results.

You are still guessing what will happen. It is not true CA. It is exactly like retcon Starhawks ca and we have seen how unreliable that can be at times.

Well I can't really counter that. I don't know any of the details. I can, however, point-out Source energy was never as importain to that plan as using an intelligent and advanced piece of more-than-just-tech as a temporary or permanent containment device designed by Miracle and Fantastic. Scott Free, again, is the world's formost escape artist, and the man who broke the lock on Heaven's gates (as well as tested the Watchtower's defence systems?)

Hank actually created a planet using the source wall and he has taken over Apokalips's tech. There is virtually no tech he can't mess with.

If you're asking whether the two can really be combined, well, the EMP itself will obviously be safe, so transmitting from it as it works should be possible, for whatever good it will do.

Hmmm.

I do wonder if the virus would actually effect Hank. We have seen an advanced virus mess up Mainframe(who is a similar being) but it was explained that it wouldn't of effected him if he hadn't been so drained from containing the Phoenix's power.

Why wouldn't it? It's not like it's drawing any energy from it. To the contrary, it aims to fry its circuits.

Hank himself can fix it almost immediately if the energy itself does not protect the circuts. On top of that we have seen Oan/Qwardian energy mix and work together with tech. Meaning Hank could use the energy to replace the circuts.

I'm not sure Kryptonite can really be compensated for so readily. It's physically hazardous to Kryptonians, not just the equivelant of an energy drain.t Plus, isn't red sunlight now back to actively depowering Superman again? Obviously the Ring makes a difference. In-fact, I was thinking he'd probably be shielded in some manner. But I figured Zemo's warps can ensure he gets a hefty level of exposure to both types of radiation.

Virtually every ring bearer has shields that protect their entire bodies against radiation and other various energies. I find it hard to believe the energy would get past the Sinestro ring's power.

Normal humans with rings have been bathed in energy that should kill them instantly and yet have been perfectly fine thanks to the shields.

Err.. why?

Answered above.

How much light are we talking about at any rate? And was it some kind of energy attack, or did he drain all/most ambient light from the area?

One was attacking with a light powered energy blast and the other literally flooded the area with light. While it gave him problems at first this was due to him never having to deal with that before and eventually figured out how use his hammer to combat both.

On top of that Dooms force field and sensors would protect him from most(if not all) light powered attacks.

-Most Thunderbolts teams hardly trusted the guy in the first place. That still didn't stop him from getting results.

The teams he lead were full of people who were striving for someone to lead them. Hell, Hawkeye did a better job then Zemo when it came to forming them into a team.

Vague.
I do find that most of your write-up is quite vague and doesn't really explain how you are defeating Doom, Bloodstrike, Savage, or Locus. It just kind of has them defeated somehow.....

 

[Who?]

For the record, I see Doom finally overcoming Reed's virus and rigging his armor back up on reserve power, all the while ranting repeatedly about how the future owes him for destroying that accursed Richards in the first place, and how now he must perish twice. Than he makes a grab for the Moonstones using some elaborate device that doesn't work because he'd never actually seen them before, and is promptly sent-off the battle-field by Zemo.

That doesn't really sound like the Doom of the future which actually overcame a sort of living tech virus.

Locust can quite reasonably be expected to go blind just from the opening salvo, but we'll just say that she is ineffective in that environment and taken-down by.. oh, let's say Scott.

I suspect if she does go blind she would teleport away before any of your team attempts to take her out while she is blinded.

Savage.. well I don't know anything about that Savage, really. That's always been the problem. But he is still being closely monitored by my team, who know far more about him than I do. Maybe a Reg cuts his armor off using the Bloodaxe.

Any member of your team that nabs the bloodaxe is going to flip out. It drives anyone holding it either mad or into a type of warrior madness. That is why I don't actually have Hank holding it or touching it.

Gravity manipulation,

He can fly and teleport.

spatial warps,

He can teleport himself. Across dimensions and whatnot.

and a speedster on the opposing team,

He actually nailed Quicksilver easily with a blast. While he was being attacked by Hercules, Crystal, Giant man, and Black Widow.

Cyborg is bound to get a speach at some point from Stein on how he'd once fought a machine that was programmed to think, and how Henshaw made the other way around, starting-off as human, but turning into a cold, emotionless machine. He'd probably wish he were dead at that point, but I can imagine Stein or Lightray finding themselves in trouble with him first, gritting their teeth, and reciting the GL Oath at him before that. Maybe he'll take one of them with him.

LOL

Damn you!!! Haha.

 

[Who?]

Sinestro rings

I do think you are underplaying the Sinestro rings just a bit. I could see Hank actually flat out absorbing the opening emp with them. On top of the light attack.

 

[Dark Gog]

I really need to catch some sleep, so I'm not looking anything up at the moment.


Boom Tubes beeing widely spread really doesn't mean much in the greater scheme of things. For one thing, it suggests that NG tech was still relevant at that time. For another, while practical and originaly ground-breaking, even the gods consider it rather less than subtle. Scott himself must have came-up with or else somehow learned it at a rather early age, because again, he invented a full-blown Mother Box as a child in one of Granny's orphanages.

Most importantly though, I'm thinking you may well have seen some recent debates on this very matter elsewhere. I know I've never seen them get much further the initial Boom Tubes reference. It's certainly no Worlogog or Genesis Bomb(/Box?). And you know, it's not even the equivalent of picking the locks of heaven.

In one of his greatest battles of all time he did that. He has had trouble physically by much less. Hyena(I believe that was the name) gave him more then a little trouble.

You're certain this was Martin Stein as Elemental Firestorm? I'm not sure how many appearances he even had in that incarnation. Regardless, the salient point here is that physical damage was trivial to him.

Thor tried to seperate the axe and mace from Masterson before using force and failed.

"Using force"? So what exactly did he do? Why should an adamantium construct not hold Masterson at-least?

I'm sure Bloodstrike could try absorbing Firestorm, but, well, Thunderstrike is no Mjolnir, and Firestorm is quite a bit more powerful than the Radioactive Man. For that matter, he is more powerful than regular Firestorm.

Firestorm can manipulate energy himself of-course, and has Lightray and Zemo on his side. Worst case scenario, he immediately flies-off half way across the moon, and attacks from there. Or he bears through it and still forms a cage around the mach or Axe.

Again. Vandal Savage comes from a place where New God and Apokolipton tech is something normal people have on them. Nowhere near their state of the art tech.

New Gods come from a place where New Genesis and Apokoliptan tech is quite standard too. That still doesn't make even Scott Free's common, and most certainly not Metron's, whose inventions go well and far beyond anything I've ever heard ascribed to the 853ed century that did not derive from him in the first place. (What would their most advanced technology be, anyway? Solaris?)

Chip one? Yeeeaah, he actually shattered it with one blast.

I actually debated with myself how to describe it. You can "chip off" part of a stone, can you not? That seems in-line with what the Grandmaster did, which was effectively to cut a piece off near its narrow end.

In part because he actually was using more then just the moonstones but was tapping into the Wellspring's energies.

I truly don't believe that was much of a factor. Not in his favour, anyway. For one thing, when Songbird shattered the Gems, he was already fully in control not only of the Wellspring's energies, but had taken the power of every superhuman on the face of the Earth as well. Of-hand, I'm not sure how much of the Well's power he was actually tapping at the time, either.

I believe he even questioned whether the Moonstones could handle its full power somewhere around issue #105 or #106.

The first part is nothing more then speculation. I do agree that she managed to do quite a bit more damage. Destroying both. Even the one that Zemo was using his power to hold together.

Of-course it's speculation, but it's necessary, given that he we have seemingly contrasting appearances taking place within the same issue.

Hell, Moonstone is still using them regardless of their shape, isn't she?

How much damage did Orion do to the armor?

If you have immediate access to Orion #4 and #5, you can probably tell better than I can. It was, I think, meant to supply him with protection directly, and did not visibly manifest.

And, well, I've sometimes wondered whether it might have been that that he'd used to deflect the Omega Beams, since again, I don't have the issue at hand, and he activates something right before they go off. But it was more than likely the Astro Force.

I'm just using it as an extra layer of protection. It's no Bloodaxe stopper, but it does a job.

You are still guessing what will happen. It is not true CA. It is exactly like retcon Starhawks ca and we have seen how unreliable that can be at times.

If I knew the first thing about Starhawk, I'd probably respond.

Zemo's insight is still far and away better than going-in empty handed. Again, too, the problem he faced was that those were merely possible ways in which the future could fold. Here though, he is approaching a far narrower time frame with a considerably more scientific method. And the closer the match gets, the less outcomes are possible.

Hank himself can fix it almost immediately if the energy itself does not protect the circuts. On top of that we have seen Oan/Qwardian energy mix and work together with tech. Meaning Hank could use the energy to replace the circuts.

But even if he can, how much can a novice really do when confronted with capable opposition, two dangerous radiation forms, a techno-virus, and an EMP?

Virtually every ring bearer has shields that protect their entire bodies against radiation and other various energies. I find it hard to believe the energy would get past the Sinestro ring's power.

Normal humans with rings have been bathed in energy that should kill them instantly and yet have been perfectly fine thanks to the shields.

Of-course they do, but those Ring Bearers mostly rely on it for protection in the first place. And of-course, there's the rather tired stand-by of light clearly not being blocked by most shields. But there's also that Zemo can force such exposure on him through his space warps.

On top of that Dooms force field and sensors would protect him from most(if not all) light powered attacks.

But I'm not using light to take Doom out. I'm relying on Reed's virus and EMP(s) to temporarily incapacitate both he and Savage.

This is, I think, approaching the key elements of this match. Your team naturally has counters for many of my tactics. A second fight could well go differently. But here and now, they clearly aren't prepared for them. The first few seconds of confusion should be enough to tilt things in my favour. Locust and, to an extant, Bloodstrike, should still be taken aback by the sudden strobes of light. Savage and Doom are at-least partially set-back due to their reliance on electronics, and conflicted to begin with. Once the first domino falls, the rest are quick to follow.

That doesn't really sound like the Doom of the future which actually overcame a sort of living tech virus.

I should probably stay quiet, given that I really don't know much about your Doom, but that little blurb in his Wiki entry about the world changing more than Doom has has filled me with false confidence, and really, I'd be surprised to see any version of the character not relapsing to such a powerful obsession, once Reed's driven the first wrench into his carefully laden plans.

Any member of your team that nabs the bloodaxe is going to flip out. It drives anyone holding it either mad or into a type of warrior madness. That is why I don't actually have Hank holding it or touching it.

Ah well. That, at-least, my team is certain to discover in advance. When every single future where you've tried a plan goes horribly wrong, it's time to revaluate your tactics. And at-least it's something all but one party on the field must bear in mind.

He can fly and teleport.

Certainly, but what does he do when, a moment after the lights go off, his Axe is wrenched violently in one direction while your body is pinned to the ground. Especially when he already happens to be fighting Firestorm?

Sinestro rings

I do think you are underplaying the Sinestro rings just a bit. I could see Hank actually flat out absorbing the opening emp with them. On top of the light attack.

Eh, Maybe the parts directed at him, but still, there are other capable energy manipulators present further funnelling things at his direction.

 

[XFanTim]

FINAL COMMENTS
This is probably my final post on this battle, unless Aristotle raises some drastically new points. I've got too much real life work right now to go back and forth on this forever. I think we've both made our points and now we're more or less finding slightly different ways to repeat the same arguments. At some point one of us has to say, "OK, I've said all I needed to say," and it might as well be me.

I'm going to try to respond to Aristotle's latest posts, but rather than quoting line by line and making this longer than it needs to be, let me just run through the key battles again and respond to his points in the process of summing up my point of view.

Flash vs. Zoom
Aristotle keeps saying Flash would have the advantage on Zoom because he's more experienced with his powers. He also seems to think Zoom is an idiot -- which is not true, he was an FBI criminal profiler for pete's sake -- but I'll admit Flash is more experienced. So which counts for more -- Zoom's advantage in speed or Flash's advantage in experience? Well, if you actually read Blitz (the specific point in time I'm pulling Zoom from), he has a pretty drastic advantage on Flash until Flash gets powered up by some other speedsters, and even then they're basically even. If you didn't read it, here's a review. Here's the key point: "not only can the new Zoom match Wally stride for stride, he can literally run rings around him". And Aristotle admits Bart is no faster than Wally.

If Wally has faired better in other encounters with Zoom -- I'm not really sure which Aristotle's referring to, since he hasn't cited a specific story -- maybe it's because Zoom was mentally not the same after colliding with his own time warp at the end of Blitz (there seemed to be some evidence of this, such as his changed speech patterns), in which case it's irrelevant to the version I have.

Or maybe Wally came up with some clever strategy to beat Zoom, but if so, I sure don't know what it is and it doesn't appear Aristotle does either. He says without examples:

If Zoom had an advantage in a one-on-one with Flash, he wouldn't lose every one-on-one with Flash he's ever had in the comics. He's not smart enough. Flashes have always beat him.

Again, I don't know what the hell he's talking about, because Zoom kicked Flash's ass in Blitz until Flash got a temporary powerup -- one Aristotle's Flash doesn't have. If Flash has demonstrated some clever way of beating Zoom, why didn't Aristotle use it in his writeup? Instead, he had Flash rely on a method of beating speedforce speedsters (vibrating bullet), which I've argued wouldn't work on Zoom for several reasons (couldn't amp Batman's reflexes enough, couldn't make the bullet fast enough, Zoom wouldn't try to phase through it, etc.)

Now, Aristotle has backed off his own idea, and is trying to say my strategy for fighting Zoom (flash grenade) should have beaten him. First of all, saying your opponents strategy for your team would win you the fight isn't much of an argument. (And how does he say this while still claiming I underwrote his characters?) But second, his arguments is that it should have incapacitated Zoom because "flash bangs incapacitate trained marines". By that reasoning, it should have incapacitated the Flash too, since he was holding the damn thing in his hand. Obviously in my writeup I didn't have it as that powerful a grenade (so Flash would be able to shield himself), just a burst of light to stun Zoom long enough that Flash thought he could get in a finishing blow -- and Zoom proved a little to quick.

Again, saying people should vote for you because I used your team effectively makes no sense.

Zatanna vs. Doomsday
This is maybe the most important one, because if Zatanna goes down there's no one on his team stopping Doomsday.

First, Aristotle gives Zatanna the chance to get an attack in first. He justifies this by saying "she can fly, and she comes at him from the air." First, even if she's looking down on him from far above, Doomsday could leap and close the distance faster than she can blink. Furthermore, Zatanna sill has to get close to Doomsday to do anything as complicated as the mind-control attack he has her use (name one time she's done it when she was far away -- I'm pretty sure with Dr. Light she was actually touching his head, certainly at least close-up eye contact.) And if she gets close, Doomsday pounds the crap out of her at superspeed, before she can speak a spell. Deathstroke is fast enough to hit her before she can speak, and Doomsday is way faster.

Furthermore, her flight advantage is totally negated by the fact that Darkchylde can teleport Doomsday right to her. Aristotle says "she ports him into the air, he falls right back down." Um, except she can port him within arms length of Zatanna, and he punches far faster than he falls or than she can defend. Or, he takes a flying leap through a portal and comes out flying straight at Zatanna faster than she can possibly block. Or she ports him right over Zatanna and he lands on her and tears her apart faster than she can react. Of course Aristotle gets around all this by having Darkchylde getting immediately occupied by Elijah Snow, which I completely don't buy (see below).

Furthermore, it's implausible that Zatanna could pull the mind-control attack off against Doomsday even if he inexplicably gave her the opportunity to cast her spell. She's not just forcing Brainiac out of him (which would leave a mindless Doomsday continuing to attack her), she's actually controlling Doomsday to break off an attack with her and go chase down his own teammates and attack them instead. When has Zatanna instantaneously flipped someones loyalty like that. All the mind altering I know of that she's done seemed to be done on already incapacitated enemies, and it seemed to be complex spells taking several minutes to perform. And Aristotle thinks Zatanna can instantly flip Doomsday into stopping his attack on her and attacking his own team, in the fraction of a second before he pounds her to a pulp at super-speed?

Aristotle thinks Doomsday would be easier to control because of his simple mind. But that's not true -- in the comics, he's proven extremely hard for even high-level telepaths to control, because of his single-mindedness. Even if she's able to force Brainiac out (and the only reason I buy that is because Doomsday is so hard to control), she's left with a mind of pure, overwhelming rage that she's not going to have an easy time affecting -- even if he wasn't simultaneously battering her with Superman-crushing attacks.

Again, even if she could magically control him, Darkchylde could break the spell, and use her teleportation to redirect even a mindless Doomsday back at Zatanna. Except Aristotle has her implausibly preoccupied with Elijah Snow (again, see below).

As for the forcefield -- Aristotle thinks that because I have Zatanna stopping Zoom with a forcefield (which I admit was probably underestimating Zoom to give Aristotle's team a decent shot), that I also have to have her stopping Doomsday with a forcefield. First of all, this makes no sense -- Doomsday with his better-than-Superman-level strength surely hits harder than Zoom. But secondly, you're saying because I under-rate one of my own guys I'm somehow obligated to underrate them all? Since when?

And which is it, Aristotle: Do you think Zatanna could produce a Doomsday-blocking forcefield or not? If you're saying she could, I'd like to know when she ever did anything like that in the comics. And if you admit the obvious, that she couldn't do it, then all you really are criticizing about my writeup is that I let her beat Zoom too easily. Fine, I agree, your team would be even more screwed than I portrayed. That's not really helping your case, though.

Even if Zatanna does somehow beat Doomsday, I still think Magneto could beat her, for instance using my magnetic dust storm trick to stop her from speaking her spells. Especially since Aristotle's all DC team has know idea how versatile and creative Magneto is in the use of his powers, so attacks like this would come as a surprise. Of course, Aristotle never gave Magneto a chance to face Zatanna, because he had Magneto losing way too easily to Apollo (more on this in a minute).

Elijah Snow vs. Darkchylde
As I've said above, even if Doomsday didn't already have the advantage on Zatanna, Darkchylde could easily tip things in his favor in multiple ways. But Aristotle has Elijah Snow forcing Darkchylde into a stalemate and preventing her from aiding any of her teammates. Once again, he just assumes his character will get the drop on mine, even though there are many reasons the exact opposite should be true.

Elijah Snow moves by walking around. Darkchylde moves by teleporting. Elijah Snow (and all of Aristotle's DC/Wildstorm characters) had never even heard of the Blue Area of the moon before the battle. Darkchylde would literally have studied it in school. And yet somehow he gets the drop on her? It makes no sense.

Apollo vs. Magneto
Look, anyone who knows anything about Magneto doesn't need me to tell them he'd never have gone down like that. Aristotle has Apollo just flying up behind Magneto and ripping his head off. As I've said, Magneto has shields! Shields that would be up from the start of the battle (so it doesn't matter how quickly Apollo attacks). Shields that extend all the way around him (so it doesn't matter that Apollo attacks from behind). Shields that could at least stand up to multiple blows from an uber like Thor, so a med like Apollo isn't tearing through them like tissue paper. If it takes Apollo even a second to break through them (and it would take a lot longer than that), then that's enough time for Ambrose Chase to throw up a time-slowing field around him.

Apollo's speed wouldn't protect him. Even if he's circling around Magneto punching from all sides, Ambrose could just put up a large field around Magneto, catching both him and Apollo, and then shrink the field to just contain Apollo once he's slowed down enough to see. After that, Magneto could immediately have the Kree gun shoot him (and yes, the Kree weaponry is still there, and anyway Wieg said we could work with whatever time-period of the battlefield we wanted). The whole "moving him into position" in my writeup was just to make it a little more dramatic -- obviously he located the gun in prep-time so they could start the battle right next to it.

Anyway, even if Apollo somehow beats Magneto and Ambrose, there's no way he's going on to beat Doomsday. Which is why once my team beats Zatanna it's all over.

As for Batman, I've left him out of this summary because while he could pick off some of my regs (as he did in my writeup), he's not beating Doomsday either. Once I beat Aristotle's big guns, this fight is basically over.

Teamwork
Aristotle basically admits my team used better teamwork, he just thinks I shouldn't have because apparently he thinks villains are incapable of it. This despite the fact that most of my team has been members of teams. This despite the fact that most of them have already fought together in this competition. This despite the fact that there are numerous villain teams in comics. Oh, and by the way, Darkchylde (as Magik) was a member of the New Mutants for several years (real time) when Magneto was the leader of the group. So she's worked with him and taken orders from him before.

Anyway, teamwork and creative strategy is supposed to be something we look for in these writeups. Saying my team used too much teamwork and strategy is a pretty weak criticism.

Let me have a closer look at the idea that villains can't function as a team. Why is this? The answer -- because they have conflicting goals. While heroes may all have the same goal -- protect the world from the bad guys -- Villains are more likely to be looking out for number one. That is, they usually do what they do for some sort of personal gain, and when they can gain by stabbing their teammates in the back, they do so.

But in this league, that's not such an issue, because all the characters really do have the same goal -- beat the opposing team. They're all stuck in a competition they can't get out of, they're all given some sort of incentive to win, and so they all stand to gain from trying their best to win the fight. Would Ambrose Chase help Magneto kill a bunch of innocent people? Hell no. Would he help him beat a mutual enemy, someone they both stand to gain by defeating? Hell yes.

In this competition, what's more likely to break up a team is not conflicting goals, and it's not good vs. evil conflict, because as I said, they aren't actually working to further good or evil, they're working to win the battle at hand. What is more likely to break up a team is a difference in the means they're willing to employ to accomplish these goals. In other words, they all want the same thing, but if some are willing to kill to get it and some aren't, that's going to be a problem. That's more a problem for Aristotle's team, which has the ruthless Titans of Tomorrow paired with more standard heroes. Whereas everyone on my team, including Ambrose, is willing to kill when necessary.

As for the notion that my more villainous members will brag about their past misdeeds to the point where they alienate Ambrose, don't be absurd. Magneto and Brainiac are both genius schemers, they're not stupid enough to do that. And Zoom already sees himself as heroic in a twisted way (actually, so does Magneto), and Darkchylde isn't even particularly evil, just the demonic side of a hero. And Aristotle reveals his ignorance of Magneto by assuming Mags would tip his hand. Magneto once tricked his arch-enemies, the X-Men into thinking he'd reformed. Another time he posed as a completely different person (and a hero) for months while in their midst.

Anyway, even if my team displayed no teamwork, they could still win this one-on-one. I think I've made a good case above that Zoom and Doomsday could beat Flash and Zatanna, respectively, in head-to-head matches, and after that there's no stopping my team. Aristotle just underestimates all my characters. He says "Zoom always loses to Flash" because Zoom lacks combat training, even though Zoom showed he could kick Flash's ass in Blitz. He says Doomsday would be "a helpless little *****" next to a flying opponent, when Doomsday can leap miles faster than Zatanna can dodge. Do you really think she has a Doomsday stopping attack that she could throw from miles away? That's also ignoring that I can teleport him right next to or on top of her, and he could easily rip her apart before she could react and before he'd fall back to Earth. He also thinks Doomsday's simple mind would be more easily manipulated than Dr. Light, when in the comics he's shown far more resistance to mental tampering. As for Magneto, his forcefield is one of his strongest powers and Aristotle simply ignores it. Of course, his team would probably make the same mistake given their lack of knowledge, and they'd pay for it.

The bottom line is my team is more powerful on paper and I wrote them with better strategy too.

 

[Aristotle]

Flash vs. Zoom

I have not argued that Zoom is an idiot--he was an FBI criminal profiler--but rather that he was never trained in how to use his powers by those who came before, the way other modern-generation speedsters were, and that he has always been tripped up by the Flash's superior knowledge of how to use superspeed to his advantage. The funny thing is, this really isn't even the crux of the battle here. The point is, if we go with Tim's scenario, which features Flash busting out a flash-bang, Zoom would succumb to its effects, allowing Bart to drop him with the razorang.

it's because Zoom was mentally not the same after colliding with his own time warp at the end of Blitz

That's actually one of my favorite examples of it. Wally got him to do that. Wally set him up for that. Zoom ALWAYS lost to Wally because of Wally's superiority at dealing with superspeed.

If Flash has demonstrated some clever way of beating Zoom, why didn't Aristotle use it in his writeup?

Because Wally West isn't Bart Allen.

Now, Aristotle has backed off his own idea, and is trying to say my strategy for fighting Zoom (flash grenade) should have beaten him. First of all, saying your opponents strategy for your team would win you the fight isn't much of an argument.

But taking my opponent's writeup, and finding the spot where the events would OBVIOUSLY go differently, and give my character the win, seems like a fine strategy to me.

(And how does he say this while still claiming I underwrote his characters?)

This is more a case of you WAY overwriting Zoom.

But second, his arguments is that it should have incapacitated Zoom because "flash bangs incapacitate trained marines". By that reasoning, it should have incapacitated the Flash too, since he was holding the damn thing in his hand.

He was prepared, and could have used the simple method of looking away or shielding his eyes. Even without using such methods, just the fact that he knows it's coming makes all the difference in the world.

Zatanna vs. Doomsday

Tim makes a mistake here comparing what Zee does to Doomsday to what she did to Dr. Light. But what she's doing is a much less involved action. It's along the same lines (magically ****ing with someone's head), but clearly less involved. Rather than going in and changing something around, or erasing a memory, Zatanna's just cutting a connection. Thereafter, she's just gently nudging Doomsday away from areas she knows her teammates are in.

she's actually controlling Doomsday to break off an attack with her and go chase down his own teammates and attack them instead. When has Zatanna instantaneously flipped someones loyalty like that.

You're deliberately ignoring everything I've said on this matter, going all the way back to the original writeup. She is not converting him. She is just pushing him away from certain areas.

Doomsday with his better-than-Superman-level strength surely hits harder than Zoom. But secondly, you're saying because I under-rate one of my own guys I'm somehow obligated to underrate them all? Since when?

Doomsday isn't as fast as Zoom. Zoom gets even more force going because of his MUCH greater speed. And you didn't underrate Zoom, so much as you may have overrated the forcefield. But that was your decision, not mine.

Elijah Snow moves by walking around. Darkchylde moves by teleporting. Elijah Snow (and all of Aristotle's DC/Wildstorm characters) had never even heard of the Blue Area of the moon before the battle. Darkchylde would literally have studied it in school. And yet somehow he gets the drop on her? It makes no sense.

You harp on this nonstop, but you don't learn your way around a city from a textbook. There's no reason Darkchylde would be anymore intimately familiar with this city than Joe Blow. She knows about what happened here, and she may know some interesting facts about some of the landmarks, but she's not going to know every nook, cranny, and alleyway. She doesn't ****ing live here.

Apollo vs. Magneto

1) Tim assumes that Apollo's going to try and get through the shields by sitting in one spot, pounding on them, until Chase throws up a distortion field. That's what I mean by underwriting my characters, Tim. Apollo will hit it, then double back and hit it again, and so on. Chase has to make sure he doesn't throw up the shield when Apollo's NOT in the affected area, thereby only affecting Mags, or affecting nobody. If Apollo attacks the way he and EVERY Superman analogue make attacks like that, he'll make a run, punch, keep going, double back, make another run, punch, keep going, double back, etc. 2) My writeup, which I still find more defensible, does not feature Chase in this skirmish. I broke Tim's team up more because he has never presented a good reason that his team would work together.

Aristotle basically admits my team used better teamwork

No I didn't.

he just thinks I shouldn't have because apparently he thinks villains are incapable of it.

I feel we're not debating this, so much as I'm trying to present arguments, and you're flailing around trying to misrepresent them to curry disfavor against me. If your opponent looks like a moron, goes the thinking, no one will vote for him. It's a patently transparent technique generally employed by those who know they are losing. You know I never argued that villains are incapable of teamwork. However, I did mention that villain team-ups and teams and organizations are notoriously difficult to keep together, because they are rife with the kinds of anti-social behavior and divisiveness that make these people villains in the first place. Furthermore, while there are three undoubted villains on Tim's team, they all come from STRIKINGLY different motivations, and the other two also come from very different motivations. There's nothing to bind this team together except previous matches, but if Tim never explained why they would work together in THOSE matches, then that's building a house upon sand.

Oh, and by the way, Darkchylde (as Magik) was a member of the New Mutants for several years (real time) when Magneto was the leader of the group.

Darkchylde is not Magik. That's why you took Darkchylde, and not Magik. They're the same person, but they are not the same. I believe you explained that to me in no uncertain terms when we discussed it privately.

Saying my team used too much teamwork and strategy is a pretty weak criticism.

All I'm requiring is that you do as the rules instruct--make a case for why your team should work together.

But in this league, that's not such an issue, because all the characters really do have the same goal -- beat the opposing team.

That's simplistic, and the rules specifically argue against that line of thinking.

That's more a problem for Aristotle's team, which has the ruthless Titans of Tomorrow paired with more standard heroes.

One standard hero, actually, and I dealt with that specifically, because I foolishly thought that the rules of the game were to be taken seriously.

As for the notion that my more villainous members will brag about their past misdeeds to the point where they alienate Ambrose, don't be absurd. Magneto and Brainiac are both genius schemers, they're not stupid enough to do that.

Do they have some reason to hide their true natures from Ambrose Chase, whom they have never met?

And Aristotle reveals his ignorance of Magneto by assuming Mags would tip his hand.

I know exactly what Magneto did. But he has no REASON to try and fool Ambrose. Here he is on a team of obvious villains and a demon, and he's somehow going to assume that the fifth guy is a hero?

I think I've made a good case above that Zoom and Doomsday could beat Flash and Zatanna, respectively

And I've made a better case that Flash and Zatanna could beat Zoom and Doomsday, respectively.

Zoom showed he could kick Flash's ass in Blitz.

For a little while. Zoom didn't come out of that story as a winner.

He also thinks Doomsday's simple mind would be more easily manipulated than Dr. Light, when in the comics he's shown far more resistance to mental tampering.

Because Zatanna's task is so much simpler, yes, the manipulation would be much easier.

The bottom line is my team is more powerful on paper

Well, as they say, that's why you play the games, ain't it?

 

[Nightwing]

Well that was bloomin exhausting to read everything and to be honest im not putting reasons as to why ive voted cos that would mean going all the way through it again to bring up points so my votes go to.....

Dark Gog and XFanTim

 

[Aristotle]

Dark Gog.