DTL Season 5-Week 7 (Set 3)

[wiegeabo]

My point here is that that's not what's motivating Superman-Prime anymore, and most likely, it never really was. That was Alexander Luthor's kick, which SBP played along with, in the same way that he would eventually play along with the Anti-Monitor and Sinestro. He's always just wanted to be Superman, deep down, and suddenly he has been unequivocally offered that position, without qualification or suspicion.

I don't think that's true. Furthermore, can Shanzar speed himself up to a Superman-level speed? A Superman-Prime level of speed? And even if he can--can he really withstand the power of a being who slaughtered superheroes left and right in Smallville, and annihilated the formidable Conner Kent? Can ANY being, when robbed of an effective means of counterattack or defense, stand up to such a savage beating for more than a few moments? I would argue no. At the end of the day, in this fight Shanzar is just a somewhat durable guy with no effective offensive or defensive arsenal, being attacked by one of the most powerful characters, in terms of brute strength, in the DTL.

First of all, that's after the start of this season and inadmissible as evidence. Secondly, I believe the Starheart was only associated with KYLE as Ion, not Sodam Yat as Ion, which makes your argument moot regardless.

Problem is, we both agree that's not Shanzar's FIRST attack. In fact, since his team will almost certainly believe that magic is Superman's weakness, he'll try and take him out with magical attacks first. That's the opening SMP needs, as he shrugs off the blows easily and slams into Shanzar, easily disorienting and battering the surprised sorceror. From that point on, it's just a short, lopsided fistfight between a savage Kryptonian at the top of his game, and a disoriented, defenseless, somewhat durable guy.

You haven't demonstrated why either of your arguments makes sense. (1) Just because they are the same person, that doesn't mean they're going to know the other's moves per se. They will share a close link, without a doubt, such as that experienced by twin siblings, but they won't KNOW each other's moves--the wages of the passing of time, which does irrevocably change people. Furthermore, since Kyle remained as Ion until the start of this season, the older Kyle in this situation is MINE, not yours, and so if either of them has the advantage of knowing the other's moves, it is MINE, not yours. (2) You also haven't shown why Kyle would fight. I have shown why I don't think either of them would be looking for a scrap. For all they know, damaging the other in the slightest could have drastic effects on their personal timelines. Remember, they don't know of the impermanence of these fights. They don't realize that if one of them is accidentally killed in combat, it won't matter. All they know is that they are in a strange universe with strange governing laws of science and a strange lay of the land, and that they are being asked to take each other out. They're going to look for the bloodless option. And that bloodless option will favor Ion.

SMP hates Lanterns. And his hatred always gets the best of him. That and his insanity. He's going to fight Kyle, even if it's just to get revenge.

Have we actually seen Superman Prime's immunity to magic? I've read everything with him through the Lantern War, and I don't remember seeing it. So even if he claimed he was immune to magic, does that mean he has an immunity? If not, he's fair game for Shanzar.


As for Kyle and Ion, Kyle doesn't need to 'know' all of Ion's moves. He's just not going to form a truce with Ion. He's been through too much to trust even a future version of himself. And, if as you say, Kyle knows nothing about his future self, then he's definitely not going to agree to stay out of the fight. He's got a team that counting on him.

I don't think you've shown why they wouldn't fight. Besides being in a tournament where they're supposed to fight, Kyle's not going to be concerned with fighting his future self because he hasn't become that person yet. He doesn't even know if he wants to become that person. Ion may not want to risk it, but that's too bad for him. Kyle's still going to take it to him.

Also, if Ion is so concerned, he's not going to want Kyle to be in any fight. So he can't even risk Superman Prime battling him. So, wouldn't that mean Ion would have to fight with Kyle against his own team?

And if, for the sake of argument, Kyle didn't want to fight Ion, he'd just fight Superman instead and leave Ion to Shanzar. Exactly like I wrote as what happened.

 

[wiegeabo]

Then Aztek will go looking for Vision. He won't go after Proctor. Proctor's not his man. My team plays a tight game, and Aztek, Anarky, and Midnighter in particular have a solid history of working together this season. They know their strategy, they know how to play this game. Aztek won't take another guy's target. He'll take his target.

No, he's fighting him for control of the mansion computer systems. Not physically. I'd never ask Anarky to fight Vision physically.

Because that's not how Anarky has ever behaved, either in comics or in my DTL writeups. He works with his hands. He also uses tech, and has often used battleground systems in DTL fights, but he's done so WHILE working in the field, and he can do that because of his superintelligence.

Let me emphasize again: THAT IS THE LEAST IMPORTANT PART OF MY WRITEUP. Anarky takes him down easy either way, because of the EMP dart and his superior martial arts ability.

So if Proctor isn't Aztek's target, what's he going to do when he sees him. Ignore him and let whover is after Proctor get double or triple-teamed by Proctor, Vision, and Deadline. Remember, in your strategy, Vision is Proctor's target. In mine he may be after Vision (since they ended up fighting anyway), or Proctor may be Aztek's target. Or maybe Aztek is just looking for any member of my team so he can signal the others to join him when he engages them in battle. Of course, if Aztek uses his superspeed, he'd be leaving Anarky and Midnighter behind. Which means he couldn't use it.

I never wrote Anarky fighting Vision. I wrote that Anarky tried to activate the Mansion systems. But Vision had already sabotaged them to attack anyone trying to use them. So Anarky was fighting for control of the systems from Vision. But he never gets a real chance since the mansion starts attacking him (Vision is busy trying to deal with Aztek).

Anarky never gets to use his martial arts. By the time he can join the battle, either he's going to be outnumbered, or Shanzar is going to show up and tear him a new one. The EMP dart may work, if he ever gets a chance to use it. But if he uses it on Vision, Deadline can still get him. If he uses it on Deadline, there's Vision to contend with. And he'll probably end up having to use it on the mansion just to get some of those defense systems off his back.

 

[wiegeabo]

This may be my hardest battle of the season so far. But I'm starting to see we're repeating the same points. So I'm good with winding up the debates soon if no new issues come up.

 

[Aristotle]

SMP hates Lanterns. And his hatred always gets the best of him.

I don't think that's been demonstrated ever, anywhere, at all.

So even if he claimed he was immune to magic, does that mean he has an immunity? If not, he's fair game for Shanzar.

That immunity has been discussed and agreed upon by the League.

As for Kyle and Ion, Kyle doesn't need to 'know' all of Ion's moves. He's just not going to form a truce with Ion. He's been through too much to trust even a future version of himself. And, if as you say, Kyle knows nothing about his future self, then he's definitely not going to agree to stay out of the fight. He's got a team that counting on him.

I don't think you've shown why they wouldn't fight. Besides being in a tournament where they're supposed to fight, Kyle's not going to be concerned with fighting his future self because he hasn't become that person yet. He doesn't even know if he wants to become that person. Ion may not want to risk it, but that's too bad for him. Kyle's still going to take it to him.

Also, if Ion is so concerned, he's not going to want Kyle to be in any fight. So he can't even risk Superman Prime battling him. So, wouldn't that mean Ion would have to fight with Kyle against his own team?

And if, for the sake of argument, Kyle didn't want to fight Ion, he'd just fight Superman instead and leave Ion to Shanzar. Exactly like I wrote as what happened.

They're protecting each other, and they're protecting themselves. Ion ensures that neither one of them is going to come to any harm. The reason Ion does that is because Kyle is his past. The reason Kyle does that is that if he does fight Ion, there's a definite possibility that he seals his own death, in the relatively near future, all for the sake of some tournament--which is NOT a motivation for fighting in and of itself, as per the rules.

However, if you refuse to accept the probable outcome that they will seek not to damage their own timelines, then just look at the matchup. There's rarely such an obvious victory in the DTL: Kyle Rayner with a GL ring, vs. a more experienced Kyle Rayner, with even more power. Ion wins.

 

[Aristotle]

So if Proctor isn't Aztek's target, what's he going to do when he sees him.

Let Midnighter deal with it, the way Midnighter always deals with it. Aztek's got a bigger fish to fry.

Ignore him and let whover is after Proctor get double or triple-teamed by Proctor, Vision, and Deadline.

Aztek moves VERY quickly. He's not going to just let Vision slip away unnoticed to beat up on Midnighter. As for Deadline, Anarky takes care of him.

Remember, in your strategy, Vision is Proctor's target.

I'm not sure what you meant by that.

In mine he may be after Vision (since they ended up fighting anyway), or Proctor may be Aztek's target.

Leaving Vision for the regs? Why is my team dumb as a post suddenly? A clear precedent has been established that my med always goes for the other med. There's a basic archetype to my strategies, and one reason for that is so opponents won't try to write them into oddball ideas of how to fight a battle and then try to call it natural.

Of course, if Aztek uses his superspeed, he'd be leaving Anarky and Midnighter behind. Which means he couldn't use it.

No, that's what he always does. Every time. And Midnighter and Anarky move as quick as they can, to get to their guys.

Anarky never gets to use his martial arts. By the time he can join the battle, either he's going to be outnumbered, or Shanzar is going to show up and tear him a new one.

The weakness of that is that it only works if the rest of your writeup does. Essentially, to make things easier on your team, you improbably and unrealistically just write an entire character out of the battle, so you can have a double-team. The way you write this battle, my characters act like buffoons, waiting to get reamed, not using their skills to anywhere NEAR the fullest of their capabilities, and act in ways that are completely improbable, given their precedents as individuals and as a team in this league.

 

[Aristotle]

This may be my hardest battle of the season so far. But I'm starting to see we're repeating the same points. So I'm good with winding up the debates soon if no new issues come up.

The way I generally do that is I just drop something if I've got nothing new to say on it. There were a few bits that I felt still needed responding to, but yes, I feel it's drawing to a close.

 

[Aristotle]

B'wana Bet? vs. X: Were it left to just the two lineups, I was planning to vote for Dark Gog. Thanks for giving me an even better reason to do so.

 

[Nightwing]

B'wana Bet? vs. X
Authorititans vs. Chaos & Order - even though i think hes tuber i think Prime would win this one for Ari,especially if Ion has taken Kyle out (i liked the way Ari did that with just draining his power)...that would leave Wieg out numbered on the Ubers and at a huge disadvantage

 

[XFanTim]

I buy Ari's argument that he could get SMP to work with the others by taking advantage of his desire to be seen as Superman. I still think he might go after a recognized foe in Kyle first, but so what? Wieg admits SMP beats Kyle, so it doesn't matter if he goes after him first. Then Wieg has it coming down to SMP vs. Shanzar just the same as Ari has it. The only difference is in Wieg's version Ion has already fallen to Shanzar (I buy the argument that his resistance to magic -- including Starheart magic -- could tip the scale), whereas Ari has Ion beating his past self (even if you don't like Ari's "trick", there's no way Ion loses to a weaker version of himself).

So, in summary, it all comes down to SMP vs. Shanzar -- everyone agrees that the GL version of Kyle gets beat by someone. And none of the regs are beating the winner of SMP vs. Shanzar either, so really that's the most important fight.

So who wins? Ultimately, I think I buy Ari's argument that SMP's massive speed advantage would win the day. A Dr. Strange level mage like Shanzar shouldn't be able to amp himself up to anywhere near Superman-level speed without making himself tuber, in my opinion, even if he has the power to do it. (And how often has Dr. Strange ever used his power in that way, much less an obscure character like Shanzar? I kind of doubt Supes-level speed amping is a standard power even for a Sorcerer Supreme.) If SMP is moving faster than Shanzar can possibly react to him, he's going to rain down a lot of blows on Shanzar before Shanzar can hit him with anything, and even with Shanzar's enhanced durability, you've got to multiply SMP's massive strength by the rate he's landing blows, which I think gives a level of damage that would floor even Shanzar.

So I give this one to the Authoritatians in a close one.

B'wana Bet wins by virtue of being unopposed, but I also liked his arguments (Ares turning the power gem against Thor, etc.)

 

[Harlekin]

Chaos & Order and B'wana Bet?.

 

[wiegeabo]

B'wana Bet?

I'm sure X could have put up a convincing argument, but writeups trump when lineups are close.

 

[LadyVader]

B'Wanna Bet
Authoritarians or whatever they're called

 

[Aristotle]

I should just change my team name to Authoritarians at this point. I only have one Authority member left, and no Titans.

 

[XFanTim]

You should grab a bunch of WildCATS members and rename them the AristoCATS.

 

[LadyVader]

And have them sing and dance in the next match.

 

[Aristotle]

Such good ideas...

 

[DTL Commish]

Voting is now over.
Final Results

The Authorititans 3
Chaos & Order 1

B'wana Bet? 6
X 0