The Dark Knight Eckhart Speaks! (Again)

[Two-Face]

I wouldn't mind if parts of both were incorporated into TDK. The scarring scene MUST be in the courtroom, but I can see some BTAS elements seeping their way into the script.

Fact is, I don't think TLH delved into Harvey's descent into madness enough. It was subtly hinted all throughout the story, but I definitely did feel there was a certain gap that wasn't filled from the transformation into Two-Face. This is where I think some BTAS plot points would work well.

The audience has to see some sort of stress getting to Harvey, maybe not in the same way or detail depicted in the cartoon, but something. Just enough so that when the scarring scene finally shows up, we can go, "ah, that's the ticket. he's been an explosion waiting to happen and that is what set him over".

It was interesting to read this, mixing up with TLH and TAS.

 

[Two-Face]

But see, that pressure should come from frustration and ineptness of the Justice System - and not simply some suppressed dark side. That is what TLH captured very well and what B:TAS completely forgot.

But I thought TAS producers wdid well with Havey having "Big Bad Harv" before Dent becomes Two-Face you know Harvey snaps at Bruce or his wife.

 

[StorminNorman]

But TLH and TAS are not really compatable.

The foundation of TLH is based on the idea that Harvey is corrupted by Gotham, that he was a great guy that fell into darkness because of outside forces. You can not tell the story of TLH without hammering home that point.

The foundation of TAS is that Harvey has suppressed anger and a dark side already present. He is very capable or violent, horrific acts naturally. It completely takes Gotham out of the equation. Harvey could of been a politician in any other city and the world and he would of become Two-Face because the stress would eventually eat away the walls he put up around Big Bad Harv. In the Long Halloween, Dent anywhere else would of been a great and noble Hero.

That is why I detest TAS origin so much, they botch up just about every aspect of Harvey Dent. Harvey Dent would of never been friends with a Gotham Playboy. Harvey Dent should of never been portrayed as a petty politician - which is basically all he was in TAS. Harvey Dent should not be flawed before he starts becoming Two Face (which happens far beyond the trial), Two Face should never have a blue face, etc.

 

[StorminNorman]

But I thought TAS producers wdid well with Havey having "Big Bad Harv" before Dent becomes Two-Face you know Harvey snaps at Bruce or his wife.

Big Bad Harv was a horrible idea because, again, it completely took away the impact Gotham had on Harvey. Harvey always had a dark side in BTAS - all he needed was just enough stress and BOOM! We have a killer. Harvey should not be that simple.

It worked fine for a Cartoon that was designed to be understandable to kids and be enjoyable by those of older ages. I hope TDK has an older age group in mind.

 

[Crooklyn]

I'm not in favor of Big Bad Harv either, but I'd definitely like a dark side of Harvey to peek through just a bit.

 

[jimmy]

OMFG! Picks up right where BB left off?!?!

I just had an orgasm.

 

[Two-Face]

Big Bad Harv was a horrible idea because, again, it completely took away the impact Gotham had on Harvey. Harvey always had a dark side in BTAS - all he needed was just enough stress and BOOM! We have a killer. Harvey should not be that simple.

It worked fine for a Cartoon that was designed to be understandable to kids and be enjoyable by those of older ages. I hope TDK has an older age group in mind.

Well that didn't bother me much, I just didn't like getting scared in Thorne's chemical plant but you got to admit that the TAS version of Two-Face's voice was different to Dent just like Bruce/Batman. I could see that happening in TDK and later in Batman 3 as Two-Face.

 

[itsthebatman]

But TLH and TAS are not really compatable.

The foundation of TLH is based on the idea that Harvey is corrupted by Gotham, that he was a great guy that fell into darkness because of outside forces. You can not tell the story of TLH without hammering home that point.

The foundation of TAS is that Harvey has suppressed anger and a dark side already present. He is very capable or violent, horrific acts naturally. It completely takes Gotham out of the equation. Harvey could of been a politician in any other city and the world and he would of become Two-Face because the stress would eventually eat away the walls he put up around Big Bad Harv. In the Long Halloween, Dent anywhere else would of been a great and noble Hero.

That is why I detest TAS origin so much, they botch up just about every aspect of Harvey Dent. Harvey Dent would of never been friends with a Gotham Playboy. Harvey Dent should of never been portrayed as a petty politician - which is basically all he was in TAS. Harvey Dent should not be flawed before he starts becoming Two Face (which happens far beyond the trial), Two Face should never have a blue face, etc.

Have to disagree with this. essentially, you're arguing that Harvey becomes Two-Face because of external forces, not internal personality issues. (Gotham being a vampire, as opposed to having a werewolf personality, to borrow a very old idea from Stephen King). I believe Harvey, good and noble as his intentions are, is a flawed personality at the beginning of TLH - considering taking the Roman's money from the warehouse, 'two shots to the head' about Johnny Viti, arguing to let the Roman take care of the five Irish men - these are not noble characteristics, and if you argue that these are because of the effect Gotham has had on him, then why do Batman and (especially) Gordon see things differently, having been exposed to the same corrupting forces? the difference is Harvey has a weak, corruptible personality that he fights against but cannot suppress. This is subtly portrayed in TLH, IMO. Its both external and internal forces that give birth to Two-Face.
To quote Abe Simpson: 'A little from column A, a little from column B'.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Have to disagree with this. essentially, you're arguing that Harvey becomes Two-Face because of external forces, not internal personality issues. (Gotham being a vampire, as opposed to having a werewolf personality, to borrow a very old idea from Stephen King). I believe Harvey, good and noble as his intentions are, is a flawed personality at the beginning of TLH - considering taking the Roman's money from the warehouse, 'two shots to the head' about Johnny Viti, arguing to let the Roman take care of the five Irish men - these are not noble characteristics, and if you argue that these are because of the effect Gotham has had on him, then why do Batman and (especially) Gordon see things differently, having been exposed to the same corrupting forces? the difference is Harvey has a weak, corruptible personality that he fights against but cannot suppress. This is subtly portrayed in TLH, IMO. Its both external and internal forces that give birth to Two-Face.
To quote Abe Simpson: 'A little from column A, a little from column B'.

I agree with this. I never saw Harvey's transformation as purley from Gotham. The way I read it, the guy obviously had a messed up past, and the constant strain and stress of trying to fight villians in a corrupted city kept wearing on him. Then add on the fact that he goes to visit his once abusive father in a senior center, where the guy doesn't remember him, and the only thing his dad gives him is the two headed coin he used to flip before he beats Harvey, and the final scarring incident, it just kind of brought everything exploding to the surface.

 

[Cinemaman]

Nice interview, In Eckhart We Trust

 

[Miranda Fox]

Nice interview, In Eckhart We Trust

Is that John Doe in Se7en in your avatar, Cine?

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Hey, I've seen actors say MUCH more in depth things about their characters even earlier in the process of a film. I'm just saying I'm not going to celebrate when he gives a "stock answer".

More than anything, the few people who even posted in this thread before you seemed most excited that Eckhart had anything to say about his role. You know how precious news items are at this stage of the game. I didn't see anyone claiming that Eckhart had some incredibly profound commentary on Harvey Dent; at most it is simply nice to hear what appears to be geniuine interest in the role he just received and will be playing for two films.

Your endless need to rain on people's parades is growing tiresome.

 

[Cinemaman]

Is that John Doe in Se7en in your avatar, Cine?

Yep

 

[Miranda Fox]

Yep

Nice! Still one of the best cinematic villians ever.

 

[itsthebatman]

Nice! Still one of the best cinematic villians ever.

To paraphrase the man himself, what he did is till talked about, and puzzled over, and marvelled at. Great film.

 

[StorminNorman]

I'm not in favor of Big Bad Harv either, but I'd definitely like a dark side of Harvey to peek through just a bit.

The dark side should be in the form of stress and frustration from the Justice System - not inner demons. That is what TLH shows.

 

[NeoQuaker]

This early, you can't expect Eckhart to know as much about the character of Dent as Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons. Nolan will work with him throughout filming and he'll learn more. It's one of his first public talks about his role in TDK. The main purpose of the interview was for him to express his interest and excitement to be in the movie. I think the most important part of what he said here is that he greatly respects Nolan as a filmmaker. That tells you that Eckhart will work closely and hard with Nolan to flesh out his vision of Dent. A lot of actors dont take these kind of roles seriously. But Eckhart, seems to really respect this franchise. So far, so good.

 

[StorminNorman]

Have to disagree with this. essentially, you're arguing that Harvey becomes Two-Face because of external forces, not internal personality issues. (Gotham being a vampire, as opposed to having a werewolf personality, to borrow a very old idea from Stephen King). I believe Harvey, good and noble as his intentions are, is a flawed personality at the beginning of TLH - considering taking the Roman's money from the warehouse, 'two shots to the head' about Johnny Viti, arguing to let the Roman take care of the five Irish men - these are not noble characteristics, and if you argue that these are because of the effect Gotham has had on him, then why do Batman and (especially) Gordon see things differently, having been exposed to the same corrupting forces? the difference is Harvey has a weak, corruptible personality that he fights against but cannot suppress. This is subtly portrayed in TLH, IMO. Its both external and internal forces that give birth to Two-Face.
To quote Abe Simpson: 'A little from column A, a little from column B'.

Harvey does not consider taking the Roman's money - he simply comments that the only two people in Gotham who wouldn't consider taking the money just happen to be the ones to find it.

Harvey has a dark sense of humor - I don't see that as him being less-than noble.

If you remember, it is Batman - not Harvey - that has to think long and hard about making a pact that states they will "go by the book" to take down the Roman. Harvey is not willing to cross the line to find justice - he believes in his system.

It is the external forces of Gotham that turn Harvey into Two Face - just as it was the external forces of Gotham that turn Bruce Wayne into Batman.

 

[DigificWriter]

Because I want Harvey Dent to start out as the perpetual Golden Boy - and truly be Golden. In a city where everyone has dark secrets, Harvey was above all that. But as Harvey gets more and more involved with the true side of Gotham, even Apollo is corrupted.

THAT is the transformation of Harvey Dent. Two Face shouldn't be a repressed part of Harvey's psyche, but the product of Gotham and its darkness.

That doesn't completely jive with the idea of Harvey Dent/Two-Face as the Batman equivalent of Dr. Henry Jekkyl/Mr. Edward Hyde, which is what the character was clearly based on (as confirmed by Bob Kane). As 'golden' as some of us might appear to be to the outside world, there is nobody in this world who doesn't have their problems (drugs, drinking, personality issues, whatever).

Having a Harvey Dent who has no personal issues (stress itself ISN'T a 'personal issue'; how one deals with stress, either positively or negatively, CAN BE, provided there are other things backing up the stress and contributing to the destabilization of said character's psyche) isn't consistent with the original inspiration for the character, and isn't realistic.

 

[StorminNorman]

Well that didn't bother me much, I just didn't like getting scared in Thorne's chemical plant but you got to admit that the TAS version of Two-Face's voice was different to Dent just like Bruce/Batman. I could see that happening in TDK and later in Batman 3 as Two-Face.

Two-Face's voice was also different in TLH. You could tell by the font and the speech box.

The Thorne Chemical Plant explanation is just another thing to add to the list of "Where TAS Went Wrong with Harvey Dent"

 

[mad-sci]

More from Eckhart AND LEDGER from USA Today:-

The villains who will go up against Batman in 2008's The Dark Knight were in attendance: Heath Ledger (The Joker) and the newly cast Aaron Eckhart (Two Face). "I'm pretty stoked," said Eckhart, who recalled "stupidly" turning down the lead role in Dark Knight director Christopher Nolan's breakout hit, 2000's Memento. "I've wanted to work with Christopher ever since, and this is a really great character. You're going to see a good part of my face and then a good part of (the chemically disfigured) Two Face. I'll be looking at other personalities to get an idea of how to play this complicated guy."

Eckhart, a Spirit Award actor nominee for Thank You For Smoking, begins shooting Dark Knight in London in late April. Ledger said, "having Aaron rounds out our cast. After having read the script, I realize why Christopher cast him in this role."

 

[StorminNorman]

That doesn't completely jive with the idea of Harvey Dent/Two-Face as the Batman equivalent of Dr. Henry Jekkyl/Mr. Edward Hyde, which is what the character was clearly based on (as confirmed by Bob Kane). As 'golden' as some of us might appear to be to the outside world, there is nobody in this world who doesn't have their problems (drugs, drinking, personality issues, whatever).

Having a Harvey Dent who has no personal issues (stress itself ISN'T a 'personal issue'; how one deals with stress, either positively or negatively, CAN BE, provided there are other things backing up the stress and contributing to the destabilization of said character's psyche) isn't consistent with the original inspiration for the character, and isn't realistic.

Harvey Dent is a much deeper character - IMO - than a simple Jekkyl/Hyde ripoff. Sure, originally the character was based off of him - so what? Should Batman be running around in a hat and a sword? Should the Joker be more like Gwynplaine?

They can make Harvey a deep, real person without giving him a true darkside. Harvey is the youngest D.A. in Gotham History- allude to the pressure he feels from that. Maybe his wife is concerned with the amount of time and energy he wraps himself in his jobs with. Perhaps he is too dedicated to saving Gotham. But do NOT make him have a dark demon inside him - again, it downplays the role Gotham plays in his transformation, doing the character a disservice.

 

[itsthebatman]

Harvey does not consider taking the Roman's money - he simply comments that the only two people in Gotham who wouldn't consider taking the money just happen to be the ones to find it.

Harvey has a dark sense of humor - I don't see that as him being less-than noble.

If you remember, it is Batman - not Harvey - that has to think long and hard about making a pact that states they will "go by the book" to take down the Roman. Harvey is not willing to cross the line to find justice - he believes in his system.

It is the external forces of Gotham that turn Harvey into Two Face - just as it was the external forces of Gotham that turn Bruce Wayne into Batman.

Gordon INSTANTLY rebukes Harvey for his comments about Johnny Viti. he doesn't appreciate the dark sense of humour. Bats has to tell Harvey twice to stop thinking about taking the money. 'If we were two other guys''But we're not''Yeah, but I was just thinking how easy-''don't'.
So in the FIRST chapter of TLH Harv has already been reined in by both Bats and Gordon.

We can argue about this all night, and I don't think we'll agree. I view Harvey as a product of his own problems, compounded by the unique stresses of working in Gotham. I feel it makes for a more interesting character, and would serve TDK better, to show him as this conflicted man. I declare a truce!t:

 

[itsthebatman]

More from Eckhart AND LEDGER from USA Today:-

Surely this ends the debate. Two-Face to appear in TDK. Can't wait!

 

[StorminNorman]

More from Eckhart AND LEDGER from USA Today:-

*SPLOOGE*