Ehh....about that "grand" speech that Wolverine gave to the team....

Discussion in 'X-Men 1, 2 & 3' started by Vasilios, Jan 17, 2008.

  1. Vasilios Firework

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    He was saying something horribly out of character along the lines of "we stick together, we're X-Men!"....

    To which they all agreed.....even Storm...

    Umm..wouldnt that mean they would have done anything possible to save Jean ? I recall Storm telling Logan to forget about her, because she made her choice.... but meanwhile Storm has known Jean for years. Is this just bad scripting?
     
  2. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    At that point, Jean had made the choice to be with Magneto and march on Alcatraz. They considered Jean to be a threat/enemy as she was with the main enemy (Magneto) and had killed Xavier and Cyclops. Xavier died trying to cage the Phoenix personality, so they were aware that she could kill anyone who tried to get in her way and was almost beyond reason. The Phoenix would resist any attempts at control.

    While many of us wanted other X-men apart from Wolverine to try reaching out to Jean/Phoenix, the movie did not choose to present that approach. It would have been nice to see the other X-Men talking to Jean on Alcatraz when Wolverine says it's all over, and to see the other X-Men shouting to her to stop when she went nuts after the soldiers fired at her.

    But if you were Jean's friend and she had killed a fellow friend (Scott) and your mentor/tutor/father figure (Xavier), how much compassion would you have left for someone who had done such terrible things and who was so dangerous?

    I don't think Jean could really be 'saved' aside from being killed. The Phoenix personality was free and, even if cured of her powers, the evil personality would still be there with murderous intentions.
     
  3. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    It was just another example of how the movie got things all wrong.
     
  4. ToriL90 Guest

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    I just made a post about that in another threads. That scene should have been written so that Logan would challenge the kids, being skeptical of whether or not they were "ready." The kids would stand up to his challenge, and it would segue into STORM giving he pep talk.
     
  5. BMM Registered

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    Yes, it’s questionable to say the least. Apparently, the X-Men (even Storm) are willing to die to save Rogue or Cyclops, Professor Xavier, and the children… but Jean, who sacrifices herself to save her ungrateful teammates, isn’t worth saving because she just woke up one day, lost her mind, and “made her choice.”
     
  6. ToriL90 Guest

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    They were willing to die to save Jean, until she became the one killing them. They pursued her even after she killed Scott, up to the point where she killed Xavier and joined the Brotherhood. Logan even pursued her beyond that. Eventually, though, you have to give up. Jean was gone, and Storm knew that.
     
  7. BMM Registered

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    Xavier pursues her. Aside from Wolverine, the rest of the X-Men are fairly nonchalant about Jean, if they even acknowledge the situation at all.

    Jean isn't gone though. Wolverine is right--Jean is still inside, as is showcased via her reaching out to Logan (just as she does to Scott) only moments before Storm tries to convince Wolverine to give up on Jean. I understand the writers wanted to make Storm appear stronger, but in doing so, she comes off as completely blind or grossly misinformed regarding Jean's plight.
     
  8. GuestStar2004 Registered

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    how else could make make wolverine the leader if he didn't make some grand speech that puts everyone in line
     
  9. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    :up: Spot on BMM.
     
  10. November Rain Single Mother

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    I'm still very surprised they didn't make any attempt to cure her and wolverine when straight for the jugular, especially with all the darts on the floor.
     
  11. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    A woman in my office mentioned this - she expected the cure and Phoenix storylines to come together at the climax with an attempt to cure Phoenix.
    That's logical for someone who hasn't followed the comics and is viewing the movie as a movie.

    What we did see was her stopping a hail of cure darts with a TK 'wall of force' , and I guess that indicated she'd never allow the cure to get close to her. If anyone got very close to her, she wanted them there (Wolverine).

    Also, even if cured of mutant powers, the Phoenix malevolent personality would still be there.
     
  12. November Rain Single Mother

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    yeah, she stopped some but still they were there on the darts.

    I'm saying Wolverine should have picked up one up off the floor and stabbed her with it.

    a powerless pheonix isn't a dangerous one, they could have dealt with her psychological issues later.

    All in all, they didn't really showcase that the only chance they had to stop her was to kill her.

    If they had a scene where the x-men tried to hit her with the darts and then nothing happened, then yes i would agree with you but that wasn't there and leaves the door wide open for interpretation.

    if your plot isn't water proof then no amount of reasoning is going to hide the cracks.
     
  13. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    If they’d tried to hit her with the darts, she’d have atomised them all. End of X-Men. Not a good end to the movie.

    And if they had cured her, what of the consequences of her killing Scott, Xavier and hundreds of soldiers. She couldn’t just swish back into the mansion and everything would be rosy and happy ever after, like a corny smiley breakfast cereal commercial. She’d be in an asylum or prison. it wouldn’t be any better.

    If your alternative isn't waterproof, no amount of reasoning will hide the cracks. Coulda, woulda, shoulda...hindsight is breeding here like a bad case of thrush. :sleepy:
     
  14. Cyrusbales Registered

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    Yes.
     
  15. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    Well, i never saw Storm caring much about Jean's fate at the end of X2 either. Not in the plane, and not in the final scene where only Cyclops and Wolverine discuss what happened. Where was everyone else in that scene?
     
  16. Cyrusbales Registered

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    The focus in the scene on the plane was scott and logan, we barely saw storm in the shots, only brielfy as an awestruck observer.
     
  17. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    So, in other words, the previous movies failed to develop any sisterly bond or warm friendship between the two women. Why expect X3 to correct that?

    And why did they just leave Stryker to die in X2, pinned to a rampart? Shouldn't he have been brought to justice?
     
  18. Cyrusbales Registered

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    Wolverine isn't exactly a 'proper' hero, and it was his decision to leave Stryker to die.

    Storm was not a focal character in X1 and X2, Storm is a support character, and they do have a small bond, when they go to fetch kurt, they have a some interaction etc, for minor characters, it's plenty, considering how they needed to balance the film with the important roles and characterisation, sure they could have developed Storm more, but then they'd lose some of th necessary moments with Magneto, wolverine and jean etc....

    Storm spends most of her time with kurt anyway, because she feels for him etc, so doesn't have the time to spend with Jean who is busy with wolvie.
     
  19. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    Well, that's fair enough, but it doesn't mean Jean and Storm suddenly had to have a strong bond in X3 if none was shown before. Storm's focus has always been the school and the children; she is the 'earth mother' of the series. As soon as Phoenix killed Xavier, any bond between Storm and Jean was severed.

    People fail to see these are not character-driven movies; there are too many characters for us to get depth and tons of screentime and character moments for each person. They are theme-driven. Reviewers and critics have always complained about the number of characters in each of the movies, but an X-Men movie is going to have multiple characters, some of whom end up in the background or not being explored to full potential.
     
  20. Cyrusbales Registered

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    The narrative writting was just about fine, but it's the specifics of the execution that are the negative. The whole "Stick together speech", that is bad writting, it's pure cliche, taken from D3:The might ducks or whatever it's called.
     
  21. November Rain Single Mother

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    How would her onslaught on wolverine be on wolverine be any different?They have the same pep talk, wolverine attempts to cure her first, nothing happens, then decides killing her is the only way to stop her. voila

    Jean has murdered under the guise of the pheonix and was welcomed back before. Infact in this case due to her multiple personality disorder she can't be held accountable for the actionsof the pheonix and would be treated accordingly for her actions. Assylum is fine or a special facility on muir Island. Keeping Jean alive is far more interesting than 'another' pointless death.

    and I don't understand your hindsight point, it's impossible to review something without hindsight.
     
  22. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    Here, I mostly agree.
     
  23. Phoenix_Flare Registered

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    I still think it was bad writing because non-comic fans probally thought Jean joined he Brotherhood on her free will in actuality Phoenix joined the B.o.E, Phoenix killed Xavier and Scott, not Jean...

    Ppl who have M.P.D(multiple personality disorders)are usually unaware what the other persona does. They realize what he/she did in dreams or nightmares (i.e when Jean realized that Phoenix killed Scott in the infirmary)

    Storm should have been present with Logan when Xavier was explaining about Phoenix and should've gave a brief explanation to Bobby, Rogue, etc instead of being anti-Jean...

    Jean and Storm had a bond it wasn't fully explored, but remember in X2 at the 2nd Cerebro Jean was limping and Storm asked her if she was ok and she said yes, so...it's a relationship their....

    And I always thought that "speech" given by Logan did not work! I think the original version should have been kept and if Cyclops was alive he would have cut in and gave the speech that Logan said in the final version of X3..
     
  24. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    Him obviously wanting to 'fix it' (in the infirmary) was what got him hurled into a wall. And cure darts would have disintegrated long before Wolvie reached her. Only his regenerating tissue and adamantium protection (over his brain, heart, lungs) got him near her.

    But Jean's classic story arc does end in her death. She wanted to die a human, not become some corrupted, omnipotent, unhuman entity. She was brought back later in the comics using the retcon that the real Jean (a total physical person, not just a personality) was still under a lake, therefore exonerating her totally from what the replica version had done as Phoenix.
     
  25. Danny No-Shame King Of Grangetown

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    Well spotted, fella. That's exactly what it was.
     

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