Ellis on Thunderbolts??

[TheCorpulent1]

No one ever convinces anyone of anything on a message board. The fact that we go around in circles all day without ever giving any ground is part of the fun.

 

[gildea]

LoL

NO I DON'T BELIEVE YOU!!!

SITE YOUR SOURCE!!

 

[Dread]

Garth Ennis recast him as a bloodthirsty 'Nam-vet who choked a dude to death with the dude's own intestines (or some such thing, I haven't read it in a while). And that that was pretty enjoyable, without irrecoverably damaging his usual portrayal.

Ennis' dislike for superheroes is well known, but making Nick Fury a bloodthirsty war vet is more in tune with him than would turning him into a Dirk Anger injoke. Hence why Dirk Anger works. Making Nick Fury a joke wouldn't have worked.

I suppose the only Marvel character who one could claim spent over a year being treated as a joke and went on to be used seriously again is Dr. Strange; after DEFENDERS and X-STATIX PRESENTS: DEAD-GIRL, he's being used competantly in OATH, but that's only a mini. But I could also argue that Dr. Strange isn't a C-Lister like Machine Man and Boom-Boom are. He wouldn't keep getting comics every year if he was. He wouldn't be getting a DTV next year if he was. He's a B-Lister. They can bounce back easier.

I guess I see your point now. I enjoy Nextwave for its satire goofy-ness, yet never heard of Machine Man before this. I would be mad if they took Fury and made him "goofy". So yes I see your point, and you make total sense. I just didn't know enough about some of the characters to share your view, and now I am hooked to this book.

Glad you see my point. And I'm sure you won't be the only one who feels that way. Expect to see Machine Man rattle off Brit jibberish and call people "fleshies" from now on. Some could say, "at least Machine Man has a memorable schtick now", but by that logic, I should revamp The Spot and make him wear a black ***** outside his pants and make crude vagina references due to his powers to make him memorable. It'd work, all right. WIZARD and the grown up juveniles of the bullpen would eat it with a spoon. But would it fit Ohn?

And for the record, Anubis also mentioned the stuff about the INVINCIBLE trades, I'll probably go for it. I didn't know #35 was the most recent issue.

Most if not all of the JLI cast survived their "silly, parodical" versions. Sure, DC has killed few of them but the others didn't keep their "JLI personalities". If the New Warriors had been done in the same fashion as NextWave I would have preferred it to their silly "Reality Bites" version which, unfortunately, was in continuity. To be honest, I don't care for all the NextWave characters as I did for the Warriors (well, most, the 2 last additions were part of Reality Bites ), but I still don't take it seriously. Really, Dread, if all of these were third tier character that you didn't care for I don't think you would be complaining so much.

Actually, I don't really care for any of them. That doesn't mean I enjoyed seeming them written like cardboard gag reels with bizarre stereotypical personas. I'm not that shallow a fan. I saw how damaging NEXTWAVE was going to be for these characters showing up elsewhere. A shallow fan only cares about what happens to THEIR faves and doesn't give a rat's rear about everyone else. I'm not like that, and I know I'm not alone in that.

I'd have preferred the New Warriors had been done neither way and been done WELL. YOUNG AVENGERS proved how well the premise could have done if done competantly. But at least the remaining Warriors have an easy premise out of CW.

And I specifically asked for Marvel examples because DC has a few. DC usually is a little better for their C listers than Marvel, if only because they have a more interconnected universe. Heroes pass through the Titans and either go into the JLA or the JSA and all the adult heroes have heirs to groom. Marvel doesn't do that because they refuse to have characters age or monnikers change hands. Although DC's also followed suit by, say, seeking to make Hal Jordon GL by erasing everything that gave him character conflict. But I'm digressing. Half the JLI are dead. The rest will follow, give it time.

Experience has taught me that I can talk about anything on SHH and the only comic topics that seem to incite the most ire are:

1). Stating any flaw in a Whedon issue of ASTONISHING or, gasp, claiming it's been overrated for a good year now

2). Not falling over in helpless belly laughs at Nextwave

So here I am. I can't be alone in my feelings about Nextwave because the title sells very very poorly. Obviously not everyone likes it. And yes, I will use sales against a book I dislike and brush it off on a book I did like, like THE THING, much as Slott'll usually be forgiven for making Living Lightening gay. All human beings are hypocrites in some way or form, and I don't deny it. Just some are flaming hypocrites (and usually either lawyers or politicians) and others try to keep it in check.

I also agree that Ellis does better on his own creations than he does with established ones, and I have a feeling Kirkman does, too. It's almost hard to believe the same guy who does INVINCIBLE also does ULTIMATE X-MEN, the later being...underwhelming at best. Just I have a feeling when you look at the cast of Nextwave, you're not going to see any of them used seriously afterwards for quite some time because too many people's first interactions with them was due to NEXTWAVE so they mistake it for being accurate when it's not. Again, if Ellis had just created original dopplegangers like Anger and Captain, it'd have worked out better I think.

Granted, I can't take Fin Fang Foom's underpants seriously, either.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, I wouldn't have had a problem if it were all original characters like Anger. It's the difference between why, say, Venture Brothers is funny but a plot from Venture Brothers grafted onto the original Jonny Quest cartoon wouldn't have been. Those characters do have a fanbase, however small, and I don't think it's right for Ellis to piss all over them because his ego tells him he's bigger than any pissant C-lister.

LoL

NO I DON'T BELIEVE YOU!!!

SITE YOUR SOURCE!!

My source is straight-up troof.

 

[gildea]

double post.

 

[gildea]

Just I have a feeling when you look at the cast of Nextwave, you're not going to see any of them used seriously afterwards for quite some time because too many people's first interactions with them was due to NEXTWAVE so they mistake it for being accurate when it's not.

As you pointed out nextwave sells very badly so is this really a great concern?

I really think people tend not to use these characters isn't because of goofy stories, but because they are C-list characters. Any creator that has a burning desire to write a machine man story isn't going to be put off by a 20000 selling comedy comic. All c-list character are one great story away from the spot light regardless of their past IMO.

 

[Dread]

As you pointed out nextwave sells very badly so is this really a great concern?

I really think people tend not to use these characters isn't because of goofy stories, but because they are C-list characters. Any creator that has a burning desire to write a machine man story isn't going to be put off by a 20000 selling comedy comic. All c-list character are one great story away from the spot light regardless of their past IMO.

But, has this EVER happened at Marvel? Seriously, I mean has a C-List Marvel character who was written as a joke for over a year's worth of stories suddenly bounced back and was used competantly and made the spotlight? If so it shouldn't be hard to name one. I mentioned Dr. Strange but he's B-List.

I get that NEXTWAVE is going for comic relief, but like TheCorpulent1 said, I'd rather they created original character stand-ins than muck with actual C-Listers because Ellis thought no one would care. Because he's right; no one does. That's why messed up stuff always happens to C-Listers. No one does care, not enough to get ticked off and be a risk to sales. You could never have Lois Lane get raped and then killed, but a no-name like Sue Dibney is fair game. Captain America getting wasted by a no-good clone of Thor would never happen, so Goliath, merely a "copy" of Pym to begin with, was fair game. And on and on.

No, it's not impossible for anyone from NEXTWAVE to be one good story from greatness. But in the current Marvel atmosphere, it's not bloody likely. NEXTWAVE just makes it more unlikely to me. Once you're tagged on as "funny", that's a stink like That Yellow Bastard's stink. Especially in today's comic market that seeks to avoid anything light-hearted.

Plus, unlike comedy works from, say, Kirkman and Slott, I just felt no "soul" to NEXTWAVE or it's cast. It's hard to explain. It just read very empty. Why pay $3 a month for the same empty laughs I could DL from Newgrounds.com for free?

 

[The Question]

The thing is, I really don't see what's happening to the characters in Nextwave as a bad thing. Comedy is not a bad thing and doesn't inherently hurt characters. I think, at least.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It hurts them when it reduces them from interesting characters to derivative parodies of their entire archetype.

 

[gildea]

But, has this EVER happened at Marvel? Seriously, I mean has a C-List Marvel character who was written as a joke for over a year's worth of stories suddenly bounced back and was used competantly and made the spotlight? If so it shouldn't be hard to name one. I mentioned Dr. Strange but he's B-List.

You're missing my point.

Its hard to name one because people don't want to use c-list characters to begin with, NOT because of some comedy strips that were written before hand.
Similarly marvel ar far less likely to release a machine man comic because it simply doesn't guarantee the sales that a new spider-man comic would.

So if, once nextwave is finished, we don't see any of the cast for a while that isn't ellis's fault it's a combinaton of both writers disinterest and marvels unwillingess to publish.

If these characters had many possible series in the wings then they simply wouldn't be c-list and would have been 'protected' from ellis like fury was.

 

[Dread]

The thing is, I really don't see what's happening to the characters in Nextwave as a bad thing. Comedy is not a bad thing and doesn't inherently hurt characters. I think, at least.

That should be true. But I'm looking at things in reality. In reality, both Marvel and DC avoid "comedy" or light-heartedness like the plague in the race to be as grim, dark, urban and dire as possible. And usually characters (and even writers) stuck in the niche of "comedy writing" have a hard time breaking out of it if they have light interludes. In theory, your statement should be true. But in practice, characters who've made a name for being jokes within the Joe Q EIC years have had a hard time breaking free from it, so much so that I can't think of one that has.

 

[The Question]

That should be true. But I'm looking at things in reality. In reality, both Marvel and DC avoid "comedy" or light-heartedness like the plague in the race to be as grim, dark, urban and dire as possible. And usually characters (and even writers) stuck in the niche of "comedy writing" have a hard time breaking out of it if they have light interludes. In theory, your statement should be true. But in practice, characters who've made a name for being jokes within the Joe Q EIC years have had a hard time breaking free from it, so much so that I can't think of one that has.

True, I suppose. But then, things never got better with people complaining about the way things are. Things got better by things changing. I'm sure, sonewhere down the line, a writer will finally think to him or herself "Golly gee willikers, funny characters can ALSO be taken seriously when used in different types of stories!"

 

[Tropico]

And I specifically asked for Marvel examples because DC has a few. DC usually is a little better for their C listers than Marvel, if only because they have a more interconnected universe. Heroes pass through the Titans and either go into the JLA or the JSA and all the adult heroes have heirs to groom. Marvel doesn't do that because they refuse to have characters age or monnikers change hands. Although DC's also followed suit by, say, seeking to make Hal Jordon GL by erasing everything that gave him character conflict. But I'm digressing. Half the JLI are dead. The rest will follow, give it time.

If there are writers that can pull it off at DC, there are writers that can pull it off at Marvel. New Defenders was in continuity. Are the characters being portrayed the same way as they were in the mini? Oh, wait, they're not C-listers and therefore don't fall into the kind of examples you want. I was just using the writer thing to illustrate anyway. I don't see what the point of the whole aging/changing teams/evolving argument was about; I'll just chalk it up to you usual Marvel criticism.

Experience has taught me that I can talk about anything on SHH and the only comic topics that seem to incite the most ire are:

1). Stating any flaw in a Whedon issue of ASTONISHING or, gasp, claiming it's been overrated for a good year now

2). Not falling over in helpless belly laughs at Nextwave

Ire? LOL. Wait.....LOL!!!! You're being serious? C'mon, you're being sarcastic and incredibly selective in your example on purpose to illustrate something, right? 'Cause most of the "arguments" I've seen from people are people being silly. I mean, sure, there are people that are deeply offended like DBM (and I guess you) by NextWave, but the people "defending" aren't taking it seriously.

Slott'll usually be forgiven for making Living Lightening gay. All human beings are hypocrites in some way or form, and I don't deny it. Just some are flaming hypocrites (and usually either lawyers or politicians) and others try to keep it in check.

They're still hypocrites, though.up: They should be saying that Slott treated Living Lightning like a cardboard cut-out and how it was soulless and all that jibber jabber.

Just I have a feeling when you look at the cast of Nextwave, you're not going to see any of them used seriously afterwards for quite some time because too many people's first interactions with them was due to NEXTWAVE so they mistake it for being accurate when it's not. Again, if Ellis had just created original dopplegangers like Anger and Captain, it'd have worked out better I think.

Granted, I can't take Fin Fang Foom's underpants seriously, either.

Just like you have a feeling that Marvel won't use any of these characters seriously again, I have a feeling that if they had all been unknown characters there would still be some character bashing around, especially comparing them to who they were supposed to be like. The message I get from you is that all characters should be respected and none thrown away (especially after your last post, the one after this one I'm quoting). I disagree. Some characters actually grow from being dragged through the mud or because they died and someone else took the name (say that Marvel doesn't do it, but I actually have the cojones to tell you you're wrong) as an inspiration. Many of them turn out to be cooler than their predecessor. And, yes, some of them bounce back from being "funny".

Are the New Warriors an absolute example of how Marvel is going to behave with "damaged characters"? I don't know, I don't have the certainty you seem to have. I don't have that power to see what Marvel policies are without even knowing how they work internally. There are a few things happening in Marvel that have shown me that the writers can do good stuff, too. For all you know Slott will get his hands on these same characters and prove you wrong. Or maybe some other writer. Who knows. Meanwhile, I'll keep on laughing with NextWave regardless of what people say about those of us who really DO enjoy it.up:

So there's no doubt, without ire...

Tropico

 

[Themanofbat]

Anybody remember the Tom DeFalco/Trimpe/Windsor-Smith Machine Man mini from the early 80's?

It was really good, and a far better rendition of X-51 than Ellis' current bender wanna-be...

 

[Themanofbat]

Meanwhile, I'll keep on laughing with NextWave regardless of what people say about those of us who really DO enjoy it.up:

And judging from the sales numbers, there's only a few of you... t: t: t:

 

[fifthfiend]

Oh man it just hit me, I can't believe it's gotten this far into this without me unpacking my standard ***** about referring to comics characters as A- B- and C-listers.

Okay are you ready guys, here we go:

Referring to comics characters as A- B- and C- listers is ****ing stupid, and people shouldn't do that.

Okay so you got the abridged version, what the **** do you want from me?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

You're just mad because you're, like, a B-list poster at best.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

And judging from the sales numbers, there's only a few of you... t: t: t:

I enjoy it. And if I enjoy it, it's insta-awesome. Or Frenchtastic. Take your pick. Maybe "it's the ****izzle" would be better though.

 

[fifthfiend]

You're just mad because you're, like, a B-list poster at best.

Naw dude believe me I've seen the A-list, it's all petty power struggles and ever-needier fans. I'm happier out of the limelight.

The endorsement deals and teenage ****es, those I kind of miss sometimes.

 

[Dread]

True, I suppose. But then, things never got better with people complaining about the way things are. Things got better by things changing. I'm sure, sonewhere down the line, a writer will finally think to him or herself "Golly gee willikers, funny characters can ALSO be taken seriously when used in different types of stories!"

I'm sure that'll happen, too. I guess as I get older I start seeing the world as it really is, instead of how I'd like it to be. Idealism vs. Realism. The ideal would be that writers would use mind-boggling creativity to pluck obscure or mishandled heroes, villians, even supporting characters and just give them a fresh, modern spin that somehow keeps some of their roots intact (a hard task, don't get me wrong), and an EIC and editorial department that actively promoted it and held summit meetings encourage it. But they don't. It's all about the next event, the next issue of New Avengers, and so on. I'll admit this year is a little better with MOON KNIGHT being relaunched well, DR. STRANGE getting a decent stab at a mini and who knows how well ANT-MAN will do. But CIVIL WAR basically has a messload of characters being bent to the will of a storyline regardless of how they've acted in the past under the banner of, "this time it's different for whatever reason", so I get pessimistic.

If no one complains, nothing changes. True. But sometimes it can take a while.

If there are writers that can pull it off at DC, there are writers that can pull it off at Marvel. New Defenders was in continuity. Are the characters being portrayed the same way as they were in the mini? Oh, wait, they're not C-listers and therefore don't fall into the kind of examples you want. I was just using the writer thing to illustrate anyway. I don't see what the point of the whole aging/changing teams/evolving argument was about; I'll just chalk it up to you usual Marvel criticism.

New Defenders? Do you mean the 80's stuff or the last mini with Giffen & DeMattis (spelling)? As for them, I'd consider them all B-Listers. As in, Strange, Namor, Surfer, and Hulk all either have ongoings or get new ongoings or mini's rather frequently. Machine Man, Photon, Elsa Bloodstone either haven't had one in ages or have been supporting players for ages. That's the distinction. They're also newer characters.

And yes, it was Marvel criticism. Much like a parent, I complain because I care.

Yes, if writers can pull it off at DC, they can pull it off at Marvel. I'm just not a blissfull optimist who sees it as inevitable. DC and Marvel also run their comics differently, which is why they vary in sales and quality.

Ire? LOL. Wait.....LOL!!!! You're being serious? C'mon, you're being sarcastic and incredibly selective in your example on purpose to illustrate something, right? 'Cause most of the "arguments" I've seen from people are people being silly. I mean, sure, there are people that are deeply offended like DBM (and I guess you) by NextWave, but the people "defending" aren't taking it seriously.

"Ire" was just clever word usage. My point is sometimes I shoot my keyboard off but the topics that really get in rebuttals are usually either when I bash Nextwave, or when I bash Whedon's Astonishing. I can write anything else about comics and I usually get less frequent rebuttals. It's no biggie. It's just something I've noticed. I'm sure if I bashed Slott, I'd get a lot of heat too. But I wouldn't; he's rad.

They're still hypocrites, though. They should be saying that Slott treated Living Lightning like a cardboard cut-out and how it was soulless and all that jibber jabber.

I never denied they're still hypocrites. But people forgive the mistakes of writers and works they like and only get critical when they dislike them, mostly. It's human nature. Humans are bastards like that. No work is perfect and I do spot quibbles in stuff I like, but I can live with it.

Just like peope who like Nextwave just love that Machine Man's become a sociopathic Inspector Gadget or something.

Just like you have a feeling that Marvel won't use any of these characters seriously again, I have a feeling that if they had all been unknown characters there would still be some character bashing around, especially comparing them to who they were supposed to be like. The message I get from you is that all characters should be respected and none thrown away (especially after your last post, the one after this one I'm quoting). I disagree. Some characters actually grow from being dragged through the mud or because they died and someone else took the name (say that Marvel doesn't do it, but I actually have the cojones to tell you you're wrong) as an inspiration. Many of them turn out to be cooler than their predecessor. And, yes, some of them bounce back from being "funny".

Cojones are good. Now name an example. One C-List Marvel character treated as a parody for years who then all of a sudden became hot stuff when they got some cool writer on them. One. Within Joe Q's tenure. Then I'll surrender the point.

I'm not saying Marvel's never done it, or it'll never happen. I usually stated a 5 year window or something like that. I just don't think it's likely from how Marvel comics have been coming out for the past few years. The only hope some of these characters have is some TV or novel writer having a fetish for them and getting Marvel's attention. But you can't predict that. I'm talking about probabilities based on what we've seen from the past few years, is all.

Are the New Warriors an absolute example of how Marvel is going to behave with "damaged characters"? I don't know, I don't have the certainty you seem to have. I don't have that power to see what Marvel policies are without even knowing how they work internally. There are a few things happening in Marvel that have shown me that the writers can do good stuff, too. For all you know Slott will get his hands on these same characters and prove you wrong. Or maybe some other writer. Who knows. Meanwhile, I'll keep on laughing with NextWave regardless of what people say about those of us who really DO enjoy it.

So there's no doubt, without ire...

Tropico

The New Warriors are an example of a franchise that Marvel's bungled quite a bit since the 90's across at least 2 EIC's. I have stated several times that at least the ones that're left may finally have a worthwhile purpose if they get another stab at an ongoing. What I have noticed is that when an A or even B list character gets bungled for a long time, naturally Marvel will focus on trying to "fix" them. Sometimes that works better than others especially in the age of simply "tossing a book at a writer and going, 'Have fun!'", which works for good or ill depending on who it is. But the C-Listers are the ones who can spend half a generation in limbo and take ages to ever get decent.

Naturally Slott could work magic on most characters.

It wouldn't be an issue if the current comic market had a sense of humor, but they don't. They see any character or franchise with a sense of humor attached as fodder for something dark. Look at DAMAGE CONTROL. Look at Speedball (who is this close to being nailed to a cross). DC's started the trend with IDENTITY CRISIS and while I am not saying these were all bad stories, I simply see a trend of modern comics feeling that "maturity" means sucking the "lightness" out. Hey, overdoing it on angst can be just as silly as space gorillas if mishandled. The fact that NEXTWAVE is selling poorly as it is may be an indicator of that, and it has me fearing how well ANT-MAN will do. Lord knows THE THING tanked when it didn't deserve too, and SHE-HULK's been fighting uphill for ages.

Plus, like others have said, NEXTWAVE just has Ellis warping the characters to fit his vision for the book regardless if there is much basis for that or regardless of if they come off as flat. He even gushes about how empty the book is. "Healing America by Beating People Up", or going on about how the female characters are "stick figures with big breasts" or something to that effect. And even though I don't care for the characters doesn't mean I enjoyed reading them like that.

But if you like it, hey, good for you, Fleshie. I'd love to be proven wrong and see someone write Machine Man or Elsa Bloodstone in some serious terrific manner after Nextwave wraps. I just question how likely that is to happen in the near future, given the current editorial and market climate.

Oh man it just hit me, I can't believe it's gotten this far into this without me unpacking my standard ***** about referring to comics characters as A- B- and C-listers.

Okay are you ready guys, here we go:

Referring to comics characters as A- B- and C- listers is ****ing stupid, and people shouldn't do that.

Okay so you got the abridged version, what the **** do you want from me?

Why do you have a problem with this fan-term? It is true. Even writers and editors sometimes use these terms. Even though we all acknowledge that any character can be as good or bad as they are written, in reality there is a totem pole. Just for an example:

A-List: Wolverine
B-List: Dr. Strange
C-List: Machine Man
Z-List: Thunderclap

It comes down to popularity, appearences, age of the character, and quality of past appearences.

 

[Tropico]

Cojones are good. Now name an example. One C-List Marvel character treated as a parody for years who then all of a sudden became hot stuff when they got some cool writer on them. One. Within Joe Q's tenure. Then I'll surrender the point.

Luke Cage. But I'm sure you're going to tell me that Cage was never a C-lister, wasn't a parody (in his Max mini) or wasn't all done under Quesadilla's tenure. Or say that you then mentioned that 5 year thing. You almost always have an out. It's like Corp said, no one concedes anything here.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Naw dude believe me I've seen the A-list, it's all petty power struggles and ever-needier fans. I'm happier out of the limelight.

The endorsement deals and teenage ****es, those I kind of miss sometimes.

Totally. It's all middle-aged hookers who won't even let you do blow off their nipples down on the B-list.

 

[gildea]

Cojones are good. Now name an example. One C-List Marvel character treated as a parody for years who then all of a sudden became hot stuff when they got some cool writer on them. One. Within Joe Q's tenure. Then I'll surrender the point.

Speedball.

Anyway as a sort of reversal of this argument how many acclaimed series under joe q's tenure have been written about monica, machine man etc?

As far as I'm aware they've been absent for a while but there was no comedy series featuring them before this was there?

Its not to the comedy that kills these characters its because in general no one wants to use them. Not the writers, not the company and in general the fans don't want to read about them.

Heck people should be greatful ellis has given them a bit of limelight...

 

[fifthfiend]

Why do you have a problem with this fan-term? It is true. Even writers and editors sometimes use these terms. Even though we all acknowledge that any character can be as good or bad as they are written, in reality there is a totem pole. Just for an example:

A-List: Wolverine
B-List: Dr. Strange
C-List: Machine Man
Z-List: Thunderclap

It comes down to popularity, appearences, age of the character, and quality of past appearences.

Basically the problem I have with it is that writers and editors use these terms, in particular, that writers in the course of their actual writing insert these terms into the mouths of their characters, so we are continually treated to the spectacle of Daredevil happening upon some attempted rape or murder or whatever and saying oh yawn it's Jester, he's like a z-lister or something why can't I happen upon an attempted rape and/or murder by someone important? Instead of happening upon an attempted murder/rape and saying oh ****, the Jester is trying to rape and murder human beings, how am I gonna stop him before he kills or rapes someone?

I'm not even saying there isn't a place for heroes recognizing the relative seriousness of the assorted threats with which they have to deal, I'm just saying there's probably a place for doing that without reducing the entire edifice of superheroics down to some ridiculous high-school popularity contest.

Totally. It's all middle-aged hookers who won't even let you do blow off their nipples down on the B-list.

Naw, B-list is where you pick up the ****es who've just started to waste away, if you're willing to overlook the e'er so slightly hollowed-out look in their eyes and faint, just-forming trackmarks on their arms they're actually pretty okay, just, you know, not quite okay enough for the A-list.

Plus what they lack in youthful perfection, they make up for in that faint but growing desperation to cling to some last scrap of the limelight by whatever means they can.

 

[Tropico]

Speedball.

Anyway as a sort of reversal of this argument how many acclaimed series under joe q's tenure have been written about monica, machine man etc?

As far as I'm aware they've been absent for a while but there was no comedy series featuring them before this was there?

Its not to the comedy that kills these characters its because in general no one wants to use them. Not the writers, not the company and in general the fans don't want to read about them.

Heck people should be greatful ellis has given them a bit of limelight...

See, I thought of him, too. Heck, the whole of the New Warriors were parodies of themselves in Reality Bites. The thing is that Dread asks for "years of being ridiculed", even though NextWave isn't years of having fun with a couple of characters, so I didn't mention him because I'm pretty sure that he'll say that it wasn't "years of being ridiculed" it was only one mini. Sure, Robbie is being treated like crap right now, but he's being handled in a serious fashion; look at that, he bounced back from a parodical comic. It fits what he should be asking for, if he wants to be fair to comparing it to Nextwave, but he asks for more (of course).

I totally understand your points. The thing is that there are people here who say that it's best for unpopular characters to remain in the dark, collecting dust and not even receive a shred of recognition until some brilliant writer comes along and writes brilliantly. I can't even use DC examples because somehow the way that Marvel makes its comics it's totally anathema to how DC does them and the same writers who did brilliant work at DC suddenly become morons when they come to Marvel. I mean, it's not like Waid can write good stuff for Marvel, right? You won't see Giffen writing for a genre that Marvel had decided to all but drop and do it better than their main event. Nope, none of the things that writers can do at DC can be done at Marvel, and that's mainly why I'm so hard pressed to find any valid examples for what the people are asking here.up: