Emergence of the "Phoenix" in X2

[FieryPhoenix]

Hi, everyone!

Like a lot of you here, I've come to the conclusion that X2 is simply THE BEST movie in the trilogy by a mile!

Having said that, I just have this question:

In the movie, did Jean (or Scott) attribute the lack of focus in her powers and the experience of recurring nightmares to the Liberty Island incident in X1?

I'm just not sure if I remembered it correctly.

 

[ico]

They did yes. Scott (I think) stated that Jean's powers have been strange ever since Liberty Island.

 

[FieryPhoenix]

So in your understanding, it was Magneto's machine that amplified Jean's "Phoenix" capabilities?

 

[micky-fox]

I think it also was hinted at in X-1 when she tried Cerebro herself. The nightmares from Liberty Island could tie in but in X1 it was said that it was dangerous for a mutant like Jean to even try Cerebro. I also think that kind of made a crack in Xavier's mindblocks for the Phoenix.

Makes a lot of sense.

 

[FieryPhoenix]

So your theories are:

1) Her usage of Cerebro started to dismantle Xavier's psychic blocks

2) Her exposure to radiation from Magneto's machine further speeded up that process

Did I understand correctly?

 

[FieryPhoenix]

Oh btw, what's your take on this...(which I posted in another thread)?

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9208982&postcount=128

...I don't think Jean's stepping out of the jet to create that wall against the rampaging waters was a haphazard way of ending the movie.

It must be recalled that aside from the occasional emergence of the "Phoenix", Jean did not really feel that confident about her powers, which meant that by and large, she wasn't able to wield her telekinesis and telepathy to their fullest potentials--as strong and as far reaching as they were supposed to be.

Perhaps to her mind (which was already starting to get pretty conflicted at that point), she felt that she had to get out of the jet and lock her teammates in to ensure their safety (and from possibly meddling with her plan) so that she could have a clear view of the lake as well as the jet, which she needed to concentrate on if she were to successfully lift the jet, fix its mechanical damages before the body of water totally comes down on it. Perhaps at that point, Jean, with her limited knowledge about her vast potentials, still wasn't adept with the art of creative visualization, which she could've used to move anything from even the most remote parts of the world with just a thought.

The only question I have is why she allowed herself to drown after successfully accomplishing her near-term objective. (This could've been explained in X3 if Ratner and his team were only faithful to the first 2 films.) One could surmise that maybe because of her emotional state--one where she felt being overcome by something so powerful and uncontrollable, she might have felt deep within her that it was her time to go for the good of everyone.

**************************************************

AND this...

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9209010&postcount=129

Now that I thought about it, it seems pretty inconsistent for Prof. X to tell everyone how he pitied Jean for being shy about her powers when in X3 he revealed that he was central to Jean's inferiority complex in the first place.

The writers in X3 might have missed this detail in X2, lest they were trying to intentionally paint Xavier as a grade-A hypocrite.

 

[FieryPhoenix]

Majik, was it mentioned in X1 specifically that it was dangerous for a mutant with Jean's abilities to use Cerebro or is it the case that it was just dangerous for ANY mutant other than Charles?

 

[aidol]

it is dangerous because cerebro would overload you unless you are a skilled telepath but since jean wasn't so used to her powers as charles is it would be dangerous for her and for everyone she would concentrate on.

 

[FieryPhoenix]

So in retrospect, with the way Xavier's character was written in X3, the writers have now portrayed him as a devious, lying SOB, making false claims to everyone about the true extent of Jean's powers.

 

[micky-fox]

So in retrospect, with the way Xavier's character was written in X3, the writers have now portrayed him as a devious, lying SOB, making false claims to everyone about the true extent of Jean's powers.

I hate them for that...

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I think that Magneto's machine broke the barriers in Jean's mind.

So in X2 her powers were evolving. And in The Last Stand, after the "death" of her concious mind, her alter ego, Phoenix, took control.

 

[FieryPhoenix]

At what point did the "death" of her conscious mind come about? What caused it to "die"?

 

[Farren]

Oh btw, what's your take on this...(which I posted in another thread)?

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9208982&postcount=128

Perhaps to her mind (which was already starting to get pretty conflicted at that point), she felt that she had to get out of the jet and lock her teammates in to ensure their safety (and from possibly meddling with her plan) so that she could have a clear view of the lake as well as the jet, which she needed to concentrate on if she were to successfully lift the jet, fix its mechanical damages before the body of water totally comes down on it. Perhaps at that point, Jean, with her limited knowledge about her vast potentials, still wasn't adept with the art of creative visualization, which she could've used to move anything from even the most remote parts of the world with just a thought.

Wow, I love that explanation! It's not contrived either - I think it really fits. That's what I'm going to believe from now on.

The only question I have is why she allowed herself to drown after successfully accomplishing her near-term objective. (This could've been explained in X3 if Ratner and his team were only faithful to the first 2 films.) One could surmise that maybe because of her emotional state--one where she felt being overcome by something so powerful and uncontrollable, she might have felt deep within her that it was her time to go for the good of everyone.

I actually don't have a problem with her actual drowning. I've always just assumed it was because she was too focused on moving the jet and holding back the water. Perhaps it can be again attributed to Jean's lack of understanding of her own potential - she didn't think she'd be able to save herself, so she didn't bother trying to: she only focused on saving the team.

 

[triplefive]

I don't really connect Magneto's machine to the Phoenix plot whatsoever. I always thought the implication was that it was just something that evolved within her.

I think the final scene in the water is the last bit of control she has over her powers, and she's totally exhausted, so she lets go and then the Phoenix takes hold.

 

[FieryPhoenix]

Thanks for all the inputs, guys.

I finally got myself a copy of X-MEN and when I watched the scene wherein Magneto's machine was finally destroyed, I noticed Jean acting somewhat dazed, as if feeling something different. Looking back, I can now see how Bryan and co. envisioned Jean's Phoenix progression from X1 to X2.

 

[FieryPhoenix]

I don't think the Dark Phoenix was a natural part of her evolution, triplefive, in the same way that the Phoenix was.

Something must have happened to have messed things up for Jean.

And that is precisely my beef with X3 -- There was no transition to speak of from Phoenix to Dark Phoenix. And that's where I think Brett Ratner and the 2 scriptwriters missed big time.

Clearly, the Phoenix in X2 wasn't evil at all. Fragile, maybe but not f@#ked up.

 

[ntcrawler]

I don't think the Dark Phoenix was a natural part of her evolution, triplefive, in the same way that the Phoenix was.

Something must have happened to have messed things up for Jean.

And that is precisely my beef with X3 -- There was no transition to speak of from Phoenix to Dark Phoenix. And that's where I think Brett Ratner and the 2 scriptwriters missed big time.

Clearly, the Phoenix in X2 wasn't evil at all. Fragile, maybe but not f@#ked up.

You know something, I never thought about it that way but you're right. Even if the beast was angry at being caged it really had no reason to lash out. She really did not do anything harmful or destructive until Charles really pissed her off by trying to do a mind rape on her, and later after withdrawing into herself from the shock of killing Charles X and apparently killing scott, she let Magneto influence her.

But having incredible powers or the potential to use them shouldn't have been such a terrible thing in the first place. Yeah sure she'd shake the whole building when having a nightmare or things would start flying when she was upset or ticked off, but there is nothing in there that would serve as a motive for her to want to kill people or otherwise cause massive destruction.

And wanting to do more evil things just because she already did some doesn't really hold well. She really had no motive to do what she did. To someone of her power, the cure itself or the human / mutant war should have been totally pointless. It'd be more realistic to just have her fly off to random places in the country and just have the team try to throw a proverbial net over her to bring her back home.

 

[ntcrawler]

There's something else I noticed. After Jean's death, that scene between Logan, Scott, and CHarles X when Charles offers some comforting words, then later the students come in, and Charles looks out the window suddenly for a few seconds, turns around and comments with a comforting smile that everything was going to be all right.

You can kill me if I'm wrong, but that's gotta be implying that he knew that Jean wasn't dead, that this wasn't the last we'd see of her, that something good and wonderful would be coming.

But in X3 he's all like "holy crap we're all doomed"

Never mind reading 40 years of comics or watching the animated series. Didn't these people bother watching the first two movies at least?

 

[FieryPhoenix]

You're absolutely right, ntcrawler! I noticed that too. Which is why I feel there's a huge gulf between the plot of X2 and what was given to us as a hint of things to come, and the actual events that transpired in X3 and the explanations given for them.

 

[FieryPhoenix]

I suspect that Bryan Singer's version of Phoenix, judging by his treatment of Jean's character in the 1st 2 films, could've been more faithful to the comic series (in that there is a good but fragile side) than the outright Dark Phoenix of Brett.

 

[X-Maniac]

The way I see it is:

1) Use of Cerebro in X1 started to break down mental blocks that caged the Phoenix

2) radiation from Magneto's machine either finished the job off and got rid of the blocks, or evolved the Phoenix part of her further - making it what it would have been if the blocks had not been there, or maybe even more than that...

3) She had to go outside the jet to save everyone because her power was short-circuiting it (she caused the jet to go offline when she was near to it), just as she did with the monitors in the museum in X2 and the infirmary equipment in X3. Also in X3 her power caused an electromagnetic force that Callisto sensed, and such a force would disrupt electronics. When she left the jet, she was able to create one telekinetic energy field behind her to repower and lift the jet, and a separate one to stop the water - which also gave a creative chance to show her with outstretched arms like a phoenix wings. She needed that distance from the jet to do it, and it also enabled two separate energy fields to do two different things. If she was in the jet the energy field to lift the jet and the energy field to stop the water would have overlapped each other and cancelled each other out - two energy fields of the same frequency that clash with each other will cancel each other out (it happens with soundwaves and is called phase cancellation - if you point two speakers at each other, frequencies will be cancelled)

4) That feat of power drained her, she was unable to do any more so she let the water come over her...

5) At that moment, as her conscious mind began to shut down and die, the subconscious Phoenix took over completely and protected her in a telekinetic cocoon.

6) The final scene showing a phoenix in the lake was symbolic, a nod to the comics, and a hint that her subconscious Phoenix aspect was now totally free (but without a conscious or living body to live in, as Jean was in a 'coma' under the lake)

7) Scott's blast shattered the cocoon and perhaps provided energy for Jean/Phoenix to awaken

8) Yes, there did seem to be no gradual transition between Phoenix and Dark Phoenix in X3, but you have to think of the transition as happening in X2 and X3. X2 showed 'good Phoenix' - Jean's conscious mind accessing the power of her subconscious, the power that had been hidden behind the blocks. Just as comicbook Phoenix had power burnouts, so did movie Phoenix in X2 - she could stop one missile, but not the other.

9) The conscious mind of Jean Grey was unable to handle the Phoenix power, which is why Scott got vaporised. She thought she could control it, but conscious Jean could not.

 

[FieryPhoenix]

Very nice points there, X-Maniac!

Brett should've gotten you on board to write the script

In #3, you wrote that Jean caused the jet to go offline when she came near it. Was that shown explicitly in X2?

 

[FieryPhoenix]

X-Maniac, in #8 you said that the Phoenix in X2 experienced power burnouts. Was that really the case, or more so because Jean hadn't yet achieved mastery of her newly-realized powers? (Maybe your answer is she experienced burnouts precisely because she had yet to perfect the art of controlling her powers, which were too hot to handle.) My take on the missile thing is this: she tapped into the Phoenix for the 1st missile but wasn't able to do the same for the 2nd one--kinda like trial and error.

Also, based on what you wrote from #'s 4 to 9, are we to conclude that Jean is absoutely doomed and that there was no other fate suited for her besides death?

 

[X-Maniac]

Very nice points there, X-Maniac!

Brett should've gotten you on board to write the script

In #3, you wrote that Jean caused the jet to go offline when she came near it. Was that shown explicitly in X2?

I'm not sure it was shown explicitly. We know Jean's expanding and unstable power (as the blocks broke down) caused interference to the museum monitors. And in a deleted scene with Storm, Jean's power causes the jet controls to go crazy.

When they are on the jet in X2, at the end, there is power and things are getting towards 'all systems go', then suddenly power goes offline. It's a reasonable assumption/deduction that Jean could have caused that, but it was never stated as such.

 

[X-Maniac]

X-Maniac, in #8 you said that the Phoenix in X2 experienced power burnouts. Was that really the case, or more so because Jean hadn't yet achieved mastery of her newly-realized powers? (Maybe your answer is she experienced burnouts precisely because she had yet to perfect the art of controlling her powers, which were too hot to handle.) My take on the missile thing is this: she tapped into the Phoenix for the 1st missile but wasn't able to do the same for the 2nd one--kinda like trial and error.

Also, based on what you wrote from #'s 4 to 9, are we to conclude that Jean is absoutely doomed and that there was no other fate suited for her besides death?

Yes, it's either power burnouts... or the fact that she was unable to access the Phoenix in a controlled way. Either works as an explanation. Your suggestion that she experienced burnouts precisely because she had yet to perfect the art of controlling her powers, which were too hot to handle, ties it together neatly.

Her power is unstable, and she is aware of this..hence her hesitation about mind-scanning Nightcrawler in the church and the pain she causes him when she eventually does psi-probe his mind.

I feel she was indeed doomed, that the Phoenix power could never be controlled properly by a human, conscious brain. The Phoenix power was linked to an instinctual personality of child-like emotion (and no developed conscience or love). Much like the Dark Phoenix that Xavier fought in the comics - power without restraint, passion without love, age without maturity, knowledge without wisdom. And much like comic Phoenix, death seems the only way out. No human could safely wield such power and remain human.

I don't know how Bryan Singer would have done it. Possibly with more of the good Phoenix before some massive psychic breakdown into Dark Phoenix - that could also have worked. However, the Phoenix elements in X1 and X2 were very muted, subtle and implicit, so the saga hasn't been as 'full on' as in the comics, and what we did get was a good adaptation, in my opinion.

I like to think that the water rising around the island at the end of X3 was like the talons of the Phoenix. I posted a picture on here elsewhere from the comics, of Phoenix holding something in its talons of psionic energy, and for me the tendrils of water hint at that.