Emergence of the "Phoenix" in X2

[FieryPhoenix]

So you think that Singer would've also pushed for the death of the Phoenix in X3 if he were at the helm (or maybe prolong it to X4)? Also, in your opinion, would he have made Jean die the way Brett did in X3--a hopeless basket case totally deprived of any heroic attributes?

In retrospect, based on the nuances of the Jean-Phoenix character in X1 and 2, as well as, in scant media interviews, would Singer have seriously pursued the "looney alternate personality" angle behind the origin of the Phoenix?

 

[FieryPhoenix]

Her power is unstable...I feel she was indeed doomed, that the Phoenix power could never be controlled properly by a human, conscious brain. The Phoenix power was linked to an instinctual personality of child-like emotion (and no developed conscience or love). Much like the Dark Phoenix that Xavier fought in the comics - power without restraint, passion without love, age without maturity, knowledge without wisdom. And much like comic Phoenix, death seems the only way out. No human could safely wield such power and remain human.

Was Jean's power really that unstable or does the instability arise from her conscious mind coming to terms with her true self, which was repressed for a long time?

In the opening scene of X3, I am of the impression that the young Jean was more in control and at home with her powers than the adult Jean ever was. She was, of course, somewhat bratty, but absolutely not crazy. At that point, I think her persona was still pretty much intact until Xavier launched his massive repression of her "Id," which resulted in the Phoenix aspect of Jean's self not being integrated with her "Superego" controls (morality; Xavier's teachings) and maturing "Ego," thereby causing: (a) the adult Jean to feel that she's somewhat of a weakling, and (b) the Phoenix aspect of her personality to remain isolated and immature.

What I gathered from Xavier's (quick and short) explanation (which I feel, made him look like a complete jerk, and an utterly stupid one at that) is that the Phoenix alternate personality came about as a result of the mental blocks he placed in Jean's subconscious.

Given his erudition, Xavier should've at least been acquainted with Freud's thermodynamic model of personality whereby repressed feelings and thoughts can never be kept unventilated for long because these would inevitably have to come out one way or another.

And when he later learned that an alternate persona who called herself the Phoenix emerged, what was his solution? More containment; more controls!!! ( = Lesser Ego; Larger Superego) Isn't this moronic and downright unethical?

Instead of repressing or denying an aspect of one's self that is potentially troublesome or a chapter of one's past that is too painful to bear, any good doctor (in this case, Xavier) would've pursued the plan of guiding his patient to come to terms with it, to fully embrace it and do the delicate balancing act of fulfilling external, as well as, internal psychological demands. Only then can a person be made whole, fully-functioning, and less conflicted.

In this regard, I feel that of the three protagonists in the Phoenix saga (Jean, Prof X, and Magneto), it is Xavier (at least, the way his character was written in X3) who deserves to die. Remember, Jean was said to be born with the gift (of having Phoenix-like powers) and since it was portrayed in X2 as an evolution, shouldn't it have been seen in a much more positive light?

 

[X-Maniac]

So you think that Singer would've also pushed for the death of the Phoenix in X3 if he were at the helm (or maybe prolong it to X4)? Also, in your opinion, would he have made Jean die the way Brett did in X3--a hopeless basket case totally deprived of any heroic attributes?

In retrospect, based on the nuances of the Jean-Phoenix character in X1 and 2, as well as, in scant media interviews, would Singer have seriously pursued the "looney alternate personality" angle behind the origin of the Phoenix?

Who knows exactly what Bryan would have done? And what 'parameters' the studio would have put upon him with regard to certain characters....

There was talk at one time - never confirmed - that he had intended the Phoenix to be an entity that entered Jean's mind when she used Cerebro in X1.

But that never seems to have been developed. And it was Liberty Island that Cyclops mentioned as the 'trigger event' when he spoke to Jean in X2. Given that Bryan had mentioned X3 being about the X-Men being against 'evolution itself', I suspect that he was going to show Jean's power expanding as a result of Magneto's machine.

We don't know if the childhood mental blocks would have been part of Bryan's story at all. But I feel sure she would have died in a similar fashion to the way we saw at the end of X3. Bryan would have had to show Dark Phoenix being destructive and murderous, as that is part of what the character does, and you cannot return to normal happy life after that. Even if Cyclops and Xavier had never died in Bryan's version, they could not really show Jean swishing back into the mansion after a dark rampage of destruction (with or without loss of human life). (....Unless she was somehow cured, or reduced to a normal human, and left the mansion with Scott for a married life away from the X-Men, giving birth to Rachel and/or Cable...This could only happen if Xavier and Scott survived...)

 

[FieryPhoenix]

...it was Liberty Island that Cyclops mentioned as the 'trigger event' when he spoke to Jean in X2. Given that Bryan had mentioned X3 being about the X-Men being against 'evolution itself', I suspect that he was going to show Jean's power expanding as a result of Magneto's machine.

(Sigh) That angle could have been much less complicated. Aside from being consistent with X2, at least, it would not have painted Jean as a menace to the world from the day she was born.

 

[X-Maniac]

Was Jean's power really that unstable or does the instability arise from her conscious mind coming to terms with her true self, which was repressed for a long time?

In the opening scene of X3, I am of the impression that the young Jean was more in control and at home with her powers than the adult Jean ever was. She was, of course, somewhat bratty, but absolutely not crazy. At that point, I think her persona was still pretty much intact until Xavier launched his massive repression of her "Id," which resulted in the Phoenix aspect of Jean's self not being integrated with her "Superego" controls (morality; Xavier's teachings) and maturing "Ego," thereby causing: (a) the adult Jean to feel that she's somewhat of a weakling, and (b) the Phoenix aspect of her personality to remain isolated and immature.

What I gathered from Xavier's (quick and short) explanation (which I feel, made him look like a complete jerk, and an utterly stupid one at that) is that the Phoenix alternate personality came about as a result of the mental blocks he placed in Jean's subconscious.

Given his erudition, Xavier should've at least been acquainted with Freud's thermodynamic model of personality whereby repressed feelings and thoughts can never be kept unventilated for long because these would inevitably have to come out one way or another.

And when he later learned that an alternate persona who called herself the Phoenix emerged, what was his solution? More containment; more controls!!! ( = Lesser Ego; Larger Superego) Isn't this moronic and downright unethical?

Instead of repressing or denying an aspect of one's self that is potentially troublesome or a chapter of one's past that is too painful to bear, any good doctor (in this case, Xavier) would've pursued the plan of guiding his patient to come to terms with it, to fully embrace it and do the delicate balancing act of fulfilling external, as well as, internal psychological demands. Only then can a person be made whole, fully-functioning, and less conflicted.

In this regard, I feel that of the three protagonists in the Phoenix saga (Jean, Prof X, and Magneto), it is Xavier (at least, the way his character was written in X3) who deserves to die. Remember, Jean was said to be born with the gift (of having Phoenix-like powers) and since it was portrayed in X2 as an evolution, shouldn't it have been seen in a much more positive light?

Good points. Xavier's blocks did create the Dark Phoenix, according to X3. He did what he thought was right. Even if it wasn't. And it does give more colour to his character, that he isn't Mr Perfect all the time.

In X1, Jean tells Logan that Xavier was teaching her to develop her telepathy so it sounds as though he was helping her access more of her power.

But the second movie failed totally to show any Jean/Xavier interaction such as Jean consulting Xavier about her nightmares and headaches or Xavier's reaction to her expanding power and the emergence of the Phoenix. Instead it ended with a strange forced happy ending of Xavier saying 'everything's going to be all right', which could refer to a general time of peace coming, as much as it might refer to Jean.

I would have liked to see Xavier and Jean interacting more in X2. If she had these headaches and nightmares, Xavier would have known - he should have sensed it psychically and been consulted about it by Jean or Scott.

We can only assume that he wasn't unduly worried as she wasn't in 'evil Dark Phoenix' mode in X2. But it does seem strange. I feel the second movie failed in that regard.

As for it being an evolution, that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be positive. It could just as easily be a monstrosity that isn't meant to be. Evolution isn't about perfection and positivity, it's about changes that may or not be advantageous. Some things that evolve then die out, or never survive to be passed on to another generation.

 

[FieryPhoenix]

Xavier's blocks did create the Dark Phoenix, according to X3. He did what he thought was right. Even if it wasn't. And it does give more colour to his character, that he isn't Mr Perfect all the time.

Yeah, but he could've acknowledged that it was a mistake instead of displaying an arrogant air before Logan.

 

[FieryPhoenix]

As for it being an evolution, that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be positive. It could just as easily be a monstrosity that isn't meant to be.

So they have written Jean off as a thoroughly mutated mutant--one who definitely had to be eliminated.

 

[FieryPhoenix]

I would have liked to see Xavier and Jean interacting more in X2. If she had these headaches and nightmares, Xavier would have known - he should have sensed it psychically and been consulted about it by Jean or Scott.

I would have loved it too. But remember, both Xavier and Scott were out of commission for pretty much of X2.

As for the ending, which you feel was kinda forced, I thought that it was an apt way of depicting that Charles could have sensed the possibility that Jean was still alive and that her powers have grown so much that she survived the deluge. While later, in the following sequence, we hear Jean's voice speaking of herself as an example of certain unique sparks (for lack of a better word) in the evolutionary process. Evolution pe se, is neutral. It is adaptation which is more positive in nature. But the way the scenes were played out at the end of X2 painted Jean's evolution in a positive light.

 

[X-Maniac]

I would have loved it too. But remember, both Xavier and Scott were out of commission for pretty much of X2.

As for the ending, which you feel was kinda forced, I thought that it was an apt way of depicting that Charles could have sensed the possibility that Jean was still alive and that her powers have grown so much that she survived the deluge. While later, in the following sequence, we hear Jean's voice speaking of herself as an example of certain unique sparks (for lack of a better word) in the evolutionary process. Evolution pe se, is neutral. It is adaptation which is more positive in nature. But the way the scenes were played out at the end of X2 painted Jean's evolution in a positive light.

I agree. Jean's evolution did seem to be portrayed in a positive light.

I wonder, then, how Bryan would have made his X3 to be about the X-Men 'versus evolution itself.' Versus implies conflict, which suggests the X-Men vs Phoenix....

Might we have instead seen Emma Frost (and others?) corrupting Phoenix into Dark Phoenix? A more gradual transition to 'darkness'?

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

I would have liked to see that... damn Singer. I miss you. please come back... lol. You know that deleted scene in X1 between Jean and Xavier? Doesn't it put a lump in your throat and when she kisses his bald head, I shiver knowing what happens to their relationship in X3. Its too bad they didn;t actually put that scene back in the movie but you can still view it while you watch the movie (if you have X-Men 1.5).

I truely am curious as to what Singer would have done with his version.

Here's a certain quote from one of Marsden's latest article.

Singer, Marsden said, "was never catty. Brett and Bryan are friends; he wants to see ['X-3'] succeed. He wants to see it complement his first two films. So, it wasn't like, 'Tell me about the script, tell me this ...' Bryan just sort of wished them well."

However, there was a moment when Singer, in his subtle way, showed a twinge of regret. "When that first trailer for 'X-Men' came out, I saw his heart just sort of ..." Marsden takes in a deep breath. "But he [kept] his eye on the prize while filming 'Superman.' "

Much has been made of the differences in Singer and Ratner's styles. Comparing them, Marsden said, "Bryan is a genius in the way he pulls the strings and ... he bottles things up and builds suspense. And what Brett's doing [on 'X-Men'] is taking that energy that Bryan created and letting it explode."

 

[ntcrawler]

I agree. Jean's evolution did seem to be portrayed in a positive light.

I wonder, then, how Bryan would have made his X3 to be about the X-Men 'versus evolution itself.' Versus implies conflict, which suggests the X-Men vs Phoenix....

Might we have instead seen Emma Frost (and others?) corrupting Phoenix into Dark Phoenix? A more gradual transition to 'darkness'?

I had a few ideas about that that

For one thing, I suspect Singer's interpretation of the Phoenix was that Jean had great potential, just hadn't developed it yet, or was to shy about using and tapping into her powers. After being exposed to Magneto's machine, it triggered an unnatural evolution of Jean's abilities, causing her power to grow faster than she could comprehend. Which could explain why at the end of X2 she was able to do things that others who knew her considered impossible or extraordinairy. Having then unleashed her powers to an unspeakable level at the moment of her death, she managed to survive death itself and was reborn as the Phoenix. Essentially Jean Grey, but much more confident and outgoing (and much more powerful). I think the conflict would have been about Jean now overusing her powers and wondering why others hold back. IE you can use your powers to do anything. No need to exercise or climb ladders when you can have things fly over to you. No need to fight willains when you can beat them up telekinetically. Eventually I can see that getting out of control (blowing up a building and killing all the villains, and wondering why everyone's ticked off at her. They were villains after all.) and she's pushed passed the breaking point when she feels she's being labelled a villain or the others are trying to hold back and control her. The final ending? I can't imagine. But I can see this kind of Jean Grey being much easier and realistic to talk back down to sanity and save. Perhaps being used as a statement that sometimes it's better not to evolve, or too much evolution, too quick is bad for your health.

Getting rid of the mental block idea would at least have shown Jean as not being a walking timebomb of insanity and Charles X as being a lying arrogant SOB.

But I'm pretty sure one of the changes would be that Jean wouldn't be portrayed as apparently killing people she sacrificed her own life to save in the previous movie!!!

Certainly X3 ignored the concept established in X2 that it was Magneto's machine that started this whole mess. THey could have capitalized on this, have a scene where Wolverine grabs Magneto by his collar and says to him darkly "This is all your fault you gruesome SOB. You did this to her. You sent her down this path of destruction with your mutant evolution machine on Liberty Island. I hope you're proud of yourself" and then give him a good shove or punch to the face.


And it's these blatant contradictions of what took great effort and detail to establish in the first two films that ticks me off.

 

[ntcrawler]

So they have written Jean off as a thoroughly mutated mutant--one who definitely had to be eliminated.

A monster that escaped from its cage and therefore had to be destroyed. [sigh]

Thank goodness for dialogue like this and fanfiction and fan rewrites!

 

[DeCeAsEd 2 RiSe]

So in your understanding, it was Magneto's machine that amplified Jean's "Phoenix" capabilities?

This is what i believed and thought this would of been the best route in explaining her transformationfrom Jean to Pheonix as an evolution instead of a Split-Personality krap from X3

 

[ntcrawler]

This is what i believed and thought this would of been the best route in explaining her transformationfrom Jean to Pheonix as an evolution instead of a Split-Personality krap from X3

It would actually have made more sense and been easier to digest. It would also have done a good job explaining the fire and the phoenix effects seen in the 1st two films. It also would have prevented Charles from being turned into a lying SOB and the whole creepiness of the psychopathic Jean.

It certainly would have fit the tone of their concept of explaining evolution and the way it sometimes takes leaps. I mean that was the theme of the entire X2 movie. Go back to the museum scene! What are they learning about? EVOLUTION!!!

So in X3, the Phoenix is "phoenix" in name only. Someone in another thread suggested that second personality should have just called itself "aardvark" and the rest of the movie would still have been the same. FEH!

 

[Majik1387]

I wonder, then, how Bryan would have made his X3 to be about the X-Men 'versus evolution itself.' Versus implies conflict, which suggests the X-Men vs Phoenix....

Might we have instead seen Emma Frost (and others?) corrupting Phoenix into Dark Phoenix? A more gradual transition to 'darkness'?

Most probably yes. When he was set to direct X-3 he had Sigourney Weaver in mind for Emma. I'm not a fan of the casting but I trust him. He also wanted to film X-3 and X-4 back to back; I'm guessing we would have gotten more of a transition to darkness but that's just a guess.

 

[BMM]

Good points. Xavier's blocks did create the Dark Phoenix, according to X3. He did what he thought was right. Even if it wasn't. And it does give more colour to his character, that he isn't Mr Perfect all the time.

In X1, Jean tells Logan that Xavier was teaching her to develop her telepathy so it sounds as though he was helping her access more of her power.

But the second movie failed totally to show any Jean/Xavier interaction such as Jean consulting Xavier about her nightmares and headaches or Xavier's reaction to her expanding power and the emergence of the Phoenix. Instead it ended with a strange forced happy ending of Xavier saying 'everything's going to be all right', which could refer to a general time of peace coming, as much as it might refer to Jean.

I would have liked to see Xavier and Jean interacting more in X2. If she had these headaches and nightmares, Xavier would have known - he should have sensed it psychically and been consulted about it by Jean or Scott.

We can only assume that he wasn't unduly worried as she wasn't in 'evil Dark Phoenix' mode in X2. But it does seem strange. I feel the second movie failed in that regard.

As for it being an evolution, that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be positive. It could just as easily be a monstrosity that isn't meant to be. Evolution isn't about perfection and positivity, it's about changes that may or not be advantageous. Some things that evolve then die out, or never survive to be passed on to another generation.

No, that is where The Last Stand fails . . . X2 cannot retroactively fail because it doesn't match the misfires of The Last Stand. There is no need to have Jean consult Xavier regarding her nightmares/powers in X2 because that storyline wasn't intended by X2's creative team. In X2, like in the original storyline, Jean's inner turmoil regarding her ever-expanding powers and shifting personality is very much a personal struggle that not even Xavier, nor any of the rest of the X-Men, is fully aware of or even capable of understanding.

. . . nor would Jean necessarily consult Xavier (she certainly doesn't in the comics) . . . and there was never any indication that she would in the first two films either . . . her struggle is very much her own as it always was, which is what makes the story increasingly poignant . . . The essence of Jean's progression to Phoenix and later to Dark Phoenix was initially set-up as it should have been . . . If anything, Xavier's creation and knowledge of a random, "by-the-way," alternate personality in The Last Stand is faulty storytelling that doesn't quite add up.

 

[ntcrawler]

But the second movie failed totally to show any Jean/Xavier interaction such as Jean consulting Xavier about her nightmares and headaches or Xavier's reaction to her expanding power and the emergence of the Phoenix. Instead it ended with a strange forced happy ending of Xavier saying 'everything's going to be all right', which could refer to a general time of peace coming, as much as it might refer to Jean.

Except right before Xavier said it, he suddenly turned around to look out the window. Someone asked him if everything was all right, and then he slowly turned back and gave his line. I don't think he turned around because he saw a humming bird or flying saucer outside. Something made him turn and look in that direction. He heard something, felt something that no one else but him could comprehend.

 

[ntcrawler]

The essence of Jean's progression to Phoenix and later to Dark Phoenix was initially set-up as it should have been . . . If anything, Xavier's creation and knowledge of a random, "by-the-way," alternate personality in The Last Stand is faulty storytelling that doesn't quite add up.

He sounds like he made up that explanation on the spot. And you're right, X2 cannot be blamed to have retroactively failed because it doesn't match up with X3. It should be the other way around. Not just with this plotline but with a bunch of other things too. X1 established things. X2 expanded them, drew them out. X3 was way off on a bunch of things, violating what was established or hinted at in both previous movies.

That's like having a Return of the Jedi where Leia kills Han right after rescuing him from Jaba, Luke decides to be emo and goes into hiding on Dagobah, and then it's up to Leia to face off against Vader, who admits that Obi-Wan was her father and he made up that other part to confuse Luke.

Faulty storytelling indeed. No wonder there are so many fanfics and rewrites out that attempt to clean up this mess. I've never seen that many people actively trying to fix a movie like this ever before.

 

[ntcrawler]

. . . nor would Jean necessarily consult Xavier (she certainly doesn't in the comics) . . . and there was never any indication that she would in the first two films either . . . her struggle is very much her own as it always was, which is what makes the story increasingly poignant . . .

The only person I could see her opening up to as was already hinted at in X2 would have been Scott. If the writers managed to have a little bit more time to do things, it would have been nice to see more private, touching scenes between the two where you can get more glimpses into Jean's struggle and fears and Scott doing what little he can to try and comfort her.

 

[X-Maniac]

No, that is where The Last Stand fails . . . X2 cannot retroactively fail because it doesn't match the misfires of The Last Stand. There is no need to have Jean consult Xavier regarding her nightmares/powers in X2 because that storyline wasn't intended by X2's creative team. In X2, like in the original storyline, Jean's inner turmoil regarding her ever-expanding powers and shifting personality is very much a personal struggle that not even Xavier, nor any of the rest of the X-Men, is fully aware of or even capable of understanding.

. . . nor would Jean necessarily consult Xavier (she certainly doesn't in the comics) . . . and there was never any indication that she would in the first two films either . . . her struggle is very much her own as it always was, which is what makes the story increasingly poignant . . . The essence of Jean's progression to Phoenix and later to Dark Phoenix was initially set-up as it should have been . . . If anything, Xavier's creation and knowledge of a random, "by-the-way," alternate personality in The Last Stand is faulty storytelling that doesn't quite add up.

I take your point, but I don't agree entirely. There was a vagueness about the Phoenix story in X1 and X2, with ideas set up in the background but never explored. As Jean said in X1 that Charles was teaching her to develop her telepathy, it sounds like they had a close working relationship as well as a friendship. And yet there was no indication of Xavier's awareness or reaction to Jean's headaches and nightmares in X2. That stands on its own, without reference to X3.

Comicbook sources give much reference to the barriers on Jean's powers and Xavier's involvement. Psionic circuit breakers (seemingly imposed by Jean's own mind) led to the Phoenix power cutting out on Jean because it was too much to handle, and retellings of Jean's origin show Jean's power emerging as a child, that she was always tied to the Phoenix force and that Xavier had been the one to 'disable' parts of her power (when she first joined the original team, she was telekinetic but not telepathic at all).

 

[BMM]

I take your point, but I don't agree entirely. There was a vagueness about the Phoenix story in X1 and X2, with ideas set up in the background but never explored. As Jean said in X1 that Charles was teaching her to develop her telepathy, it sounds like they had a close working relationship as well as a friendship. And yet there was no indication of Xavier's awareness or reaction to Jean's headaches and nightmares in X2. That stands on its own, without reference to X3.

Comicbook sources give much reference to the barriers on Jean's powers and Xavier's involvement. Psionic circuit breakers (seemingly imposed by Jean's own mind) led to the Phoenix power cutting out on Jean because it was too much to handle, and retellings of Jean's origin show Jean's power emerging as a child, that she was always tied to the Phoenix force and that Xavier had been the one to 'disable' parts of her power (when she first joined the original team, she was telekinetic but not telepathic at all).

The vagueness regarding the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix storyline is intentional . . . as it is meant to be explored later . . . to do so in X2 defeats the purpose . . . there is no need to further explore it in X2 any more than it already is--that is what the future films are for. As for Xavier, he wouldn't be aware of Jean's headaches or nightmares unless told by Jean. Xavier isn't in the business of simply intruding upon people's thoughts unless otherwise asked . . . Nor would Jean readily tell him, as is proscribed via the storyline--this is Jean's problem (as it has always been) and she has made a choice to deal with it herself.

In so far as retellings are concerned, the seeds for Jean's transformation into Phoenix and later Dark Phoenix are planted in X-Men, which was released during the summer of 2000 . . . X2 was conceptualized as early as 2001 and filmed in 2002 . . . a fair number of retellings and further explanations regarding Jean's corellation with the Phoenix weren't developed until later (post X2, and certainly post X-Men), such as Phoenix Endsong circa 2005.

Regardless, X2 still does not retroactively fail because of the somewhat shoddy explanations presented in The Last Stand.

 

[FieryPhoenix]

I would actually have been comfortable with the psychic block thing had it been qualified in a different context, making it appear that Xavier did it only as a last resort.

The emergence of the Phoenix (and Dark Phoenix) in the films could have been explained as a confluence of several factors: (Just my two cents)

1) The natural development of Jean's awesome powers was stunted as a result of mental blocks which Xavier put in place (not to cage her but to keep her from going nuts) to shield her mind from the pain of a traumatic event she encountered early in life (perhaps much like in the comics).

2) With Xavier's tutelage and ongoing therapy sessions, the adult Jean had achieved some skill in controlling her powers and gained a somewhat balanced sense of self (although much work still had to be done in both cases).

3) Since things were going pretty well, Xavier decided to allow the mental blocks to come off once Jean became psychologically prepared to face the ghosts of her past.

4) Jean's use of Cerebro in X1 unexpectedly uncovered memories of her childhood trauma and quickly unraveled thoughts and feelings about her true self/potential that were otherwise buried deep in her subconscious, thus causing confusion and some mental instability.

5) Her exposure to Magneto's machine exacerbated the situation in that it brought to the fore her once suppressed powers in a much more accelerated pace, causing her to lose further control of her abilities, which in turn, added in her the sense that she was "losing it."

6) As if these developments weren't enough, in comes Logan trying to seduce Jean. While feeling some sort of animal attraction for him, thus, flirting with him on occasion, Jean knew deep in her heart that Scott was the man for her. Hence, she became "torn between two lovers" -- a man she wanted to spend the rest of her life with and a manimal she liked to try out in bed just for kicks. Such repressed feeling, which stems from one's "id" -- the cesspool of instincts and desires -- which drives ordinary humans to great heights of passion and creativity, is actually the fuel that drives her Phoenix-like powers to peak (think of orgasm, if you will).

7) Having walked the path of the straight and narrow all her life, Jean was slowly, albeit unconsciously, starting to tread on the wild side, thanks to Logan, and a part of her liked it. At the same time, though, she felt a strong sense of guilt for not being totally faithful to the guy she loved and was commited to. Thus, her personal conflicts continued to multiply as she was getting more in tuned with her "Phoenix" self.

8) Being unable to comprehend the changes in her in relation to her powers, as well as, the nightmares which pointed to her past and the darkness she foresaw which she sensed she will play a great part in, Jean, now fully as the "Phoenix" decided to sacrifice "life" and personal happiness to "go away" temporarily at the end of X2 to sort things out in solitude.

9) Still, her heart ached for Scott and knowing the pain she must have caused him, she constantly called out to him in his dreams. Scott, though, instead of reaching out for support in his bereavement, further isolated himself and became aimless, bitter, and angry.

10) In a parallel development, Magneto was able to recruit a powerful telepath (Psylocke, maybe) and empath (Emma Frost, as envisioned by Bryan Singer) to his cause. Together, these two sensed the very strong internal turmoil brewing in Jean's psyche but did not truly believe it was her since they were told that she had already perished. They tried to track her down to make sense of it, nonetheless. Sensing that Xavier had also felt the same thing as they did (which was just a confirmation of his earlier feelings of Jean still being alive) and was hot on their trail, they decided to psychically incapacitate him for a while for some lead time. As they approached Alkali Lake, they witnessed the fight that was about to take place...

11) Scott, in a fit of anger, convinced that he was merely hearing voices in his head, released a very powerful optic blast into Jean's watery grave.

12) Not knowing what hit her, Jean, now stronger than before, burst from her telekinetic cocoon and, as if relflexively in an act of self-defense, unleashed a torrent of psychic bolts onto her "attacker."

13) As things settled down and Jean came to her senses, she realized that she had unwittingly "killed" Scott. This became another major trauma for Jean, one that approximated her childhood one in scale, and put her in a semi-catatonic state.

14) The Brotherhood came in and secured Jean. They seemingly nursed her back to health while fed delusions to her extremely volatile mind such as: (a) She would not have felt so incomplete all her life had Xavier not manipulated her, (b) She could have achieved so much greatness on her own, (c) Without Xavier, mutants could have been the superior race in humanity, (d) Like her, Scott was merely a victim in the broad scheme of Xavier's machinations therefore Xavier was also to blame for his "death", (e) If Scott only had the "balls" the same way Logan did, he would not have been an unwitting tool in Xavier's quest to subdue her powers, and so on and so forth. All of these prompted Jean to question reality and her feelings of loyalty and fealty turned to pure rage.

15) All of the foregoing developments tipped the scales so to speak, which gave rise to the extremely mad, extremely crazy, "Dark Phoenix."

16) IMO, X3 or X4 should've been about the quest to rescue Jean and her inner struggle to redeem her sanity, to free herself from her past, and for letting the Phoenix within her truly rise from the ashes.

 

[ntcrawler]

FieryPhoenix, a masterpiece of an analysis! Too bad the writers took the sloppy, easy approach instead: she's just crazy, evil and dangerous, so we need to kill her. I'm going to want to dive and talk about with you point by point but for now I just have a quick question regarding point #13:

13) As things settled down and Jean came to her senses, she realized that she had unwittingly "killed" Scott. This became another major trauma for Jean, one that approximated her childhood one in scale, and put her in a semi-catatonic state.

Now suppose that we're at Alcatraz, she sees the X-jet arrive and the team disembarks. And the last person that gets out and helps for that defensive line is Cyclops. No doubt about it, his use of his optic beams is a dead giveaway. I'd like your opinion as to how she'd react to this seeing this and what effect if any it would have on her. Based on your answer, I'm going to have another question for you.

 

[FieryPhoenix]

If I were in Jean's shoes, seeing Scott alive would, of course, overwhelm me with extreme joy and assuage some of the guilt I felt upon realizing that I hurt somebody I loved.

I don't think that Jean would even question for a minute if the Scott she's seeing is the real deal. Her telepathy could help figure that out, along with how he could've possibly survived her attack.

As a result, I would expect that some of the rage she's feeling about her own predicament would dissipate.

 

[ntcrawler]

If I were in Jean's shoes, seeing Scott alive would, of course, overwhelm me with extreme joy and assuage some of the guilt I felt upon realizing that I hurt somebody I loved.

I don't think that Jean would even question for a minute if the Scott she's seeing is the real deal. Her telepathy could help figure that out, along with how he could've possibly survived her attack.

As a result, I would expect that some of the rage she's feeling about her own predicament would dissipate.

Ahh good good we're onto something here. Certainly if she repressed her memories of what happened to Scott, or if she was in denial from the trauma then that would probably come back, huh? Suddenly those missing scenes in her head would become clear. I'm not prepared to go so far as to have Jean suddenly switch sides and embrace her lover-boy with open arms, but I'm guessing that it would be a mighty good reason for her NOT to get involved in the battle at all, mostly stay to the side like she did anyways and try to figure things out in her head (secretly cheer for the good guys and hope Magneto gets his butt kicked)

She certainly would do a mighty double-take, woudln't she? I'd pay money to see the look on her face as portrayed by Famke! haha.

Now here's my next question for you: So Scott's there, Jean makes sure it's the real Scott, and accepts that she indeed did not kill him, removin some of the guilt as you suggest. SUDDENLY, Scott takes a hit and goes down! A random mutant or two managed to get a lucky shot at him from behind. He's alive but injured and down. Looks like the mutant is going to press his attack and finish him off.

What happens next? What would Jean do, if anything?