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Fanboy claims that people think are true but aren't

Yet real women wear clothing that is far more revealing than what a real man would wear. When I design a costume, it's usually along the lines of what I think that specific character would wear, and I've yet to come across a comic book character (male or female) that doesn't have the personality to match their costume and vice versa.
 
http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?p=4
But doing martial arts in high heels is perfectly reasonable.

People making this argument fall into two camps.

The first believe this is genuinely true, in which case I urge them to submit video footage at once, and salute their courage.

The second believe that superheroes being unrealistic creations in the first place, it isn’t much more unrealistic to stick four inch spikes on female characters. But why is it always the female characters? Because high heels are gendered. Women in comics aren’t wearing heels because they’re super-agile; they’re wearing heels because the artist believes that’s what attractive women should do.

Moreover, many feminist readers have worn heels, and know first hand how painful they can be and how much they restrict movement. Seeing stilettoes on Black Canary draws not admiration of her dainty classiness, but a mental *CRASH* following the failing suspension of disbelief.

But super-strong women don’t need bras!


It is true that Power Girl is not likely to suffer the backaches that her similarly-endowed real world sisters must endure or have painful surgery to correct, but once again there are two issues here.

The first is the suspension of disbelief thing – if you have large breasts, or even medium-sized breasts, you’re aware that they flop around and upset your balance and feel vulnerable when not constrained. For the male equivalent, please imagine a hero charging into battle in a kilt and a condom, with no other restriction on his own floppy bits. Now imagine that the things flopping around are about half as sensitive, but roughly ten times bigger.

*CRASH!*

The second is more an art/cultural thing, wherein the secondary sexual characteristics of women are held to be so hugely important that they must be emphasised. Bonus for obvious nipple action! If I have to point out why automatically reducing female characters to body parts is a bad idea, you are reading the wrong blog.

But she’s from an alien culture with no nudity taboo!

And the first time she appeared, that excuse was just barely enough to hoist one’s disbelief. After all, fashion is a pretty strange cultural artefact, and clothing only necessary in terms of if you’ll freeze without it.

But when she keeps appearing, with different names, still resembling a buxom earth lass who just likes to walk around naked – just because! – it gets icky.

She’s not real. She was created. Her no-nudity-taboo-alien-culture was created. And they were created so that there was an excuse, however flimsy, to objectify yet another female character.

But girls often wear skirts! Why wouldn’t they go flying in them?

Girls do wear skirts! Not, usually, when they are being soldiers or fire fighters or police officers or martial artists or athletes, which are our real world equivalents to superheroes. I’ll grant you tennis and netball players, if you grant me that most tennis and netball players are wearing shorts or spanky pants under those skirts, and probably wouldn’t be wearing them at all if there wasn’t such a huge cultural pressure on women to be ladylike.

Which, again, is the problem. Superheroic women must be female first, heroes after. Women wear skirts. Therefore, superheroic women wear skirts!

Moreover, like heeled shoes, skirts restrict movement. Excess material gets in the way. And while the excess material that forms Superman’s cape is there to make him look awesome as it billows in the wind, the excess material that forms Supergirl’s skirt is there because she’s SuperGIRL, damnit!

Some superheroes might believably wear skirts. But it’s an odd choice that requires in-text explanation to suspend disbelief.

(More here.)

But that costume suits her personality!

Again, reasonable persons often employ this argument. Your critic is probably fully in favour of costumes suiting personalities. That’s why she’s irritated that, for example, Huntress’ personality apparently switched from full-cover spandex to an exposed midriff that somehow magically failed to reveal her bullet scars.

Or, she could be wearily sick of the parade of comic book women who, like the attractive aliens with no nudity taboo, just happen to have personalities that require costumes emphasising their primary sexual traits.

This one really is a judgement call. The critic may think that Power Girl’s costume suits her personality, but balks at Emma Frost’s all-white fetish wear. You might think Emma’s clothes admirably suited to her elitist contempt, but be baffled by the infamous boob window.

If this is the only spot the bingo player has scored off you, fear not! You are probably not a moron. This argument, like all the costume related points, is really only offensive in combination with others. That’s why we’re playing bingo, not handing out a misogyny raffle.
But men are drawn unrealistically too!

This is probably the bingo point that causes the most fuss. When otherwise enlightened persons use the argument and are consequently informed of their gaffe, they tend to respond, baffled, “But I’m RIGHT! They ARE!”

Yes! You are right! Nowhere but in comics or other carefully controlled media does one find such stunning physical specimens of manhood. Comic book guys often have symmetrical features, are well- (often over-) muscled and are generally good looking.

However, you don’t find many of them striding along in bathing suits and high-heeled boots, wrenching their backs out as they hurl their hips around and thrust their tumescent, massive penises and firmly rounded butts at the reader.

Why? Because that would look ridiculous. So why isn’t it ridiculous when it’s done to female characters?

No one would deny that the average superhero team contains more attractive men than you would find walking down the street anywhere but Hollywood. But there is a substantial difference between the unrealistic portrayal of men and women that relies heavily on gendered stereotyping of what is attractive. Men must be strong! Women must be sexy!

So when you say “But men are drawn unrealistically too!”, the bingo player reads “Men are drawn to look strong and handsome, and that’s why you shouldn’t complain about Frank Miller objectifying Vicki Vale’s talking butt.”
 
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Hmm... guess I have to fall back on my default argument for the "isms".

I have a basic level of respect that I give to everyone when I first meet them, regardless of race, sex, or sexual preference. Combine that with the fact that people who are not me are generally stupid and will find other reasons to hate each other, so the portrayal of (insert non-young, white, straight male group of people here) in (insert work of fiction here) doesn't matter in the long run. In short, who cares?
 
- Silver Age Clark is the Donner-verse Clark
- Denny O'Neill is the mastermind that brought back the gritty Batman
- Frank Miller made Batman dark again (not so many anymore)
- Watchmen changed the public view on comics forevaaa ( lol )
- Spawn was a groundbreaking character
- Denny O'Neill is more than an average writer
- Byrne's Superman was going "back to the roots" of Siegel and Shuster ( lol )

more to come! ;)
 
Hmm... guess I have to fall back on my default argument for the "isms".

I have a basic level of respect that I give to everyone when I first meet them, regardless of race, sex, or sexual preference. Combine that with the fact that people who are not me are generally stupid and will find other reasons to hate each other, so the portrayal of (insert non-young, white, straight male group of people here) in (insert work of fiction here) doesn't matter in the long run. In short, who cares?
You're...wondering why damaging portrayals of women might matter to women? :confused: Wait, no...why any damaging portrayals of any disenfranchised group would matter to that group, since it "doesn't matter in the long run"? So long as you're not the one doing it?

Have a Psyduck, good sir.

psyduckm.gif


http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?p=4

Sexism is a convention of the genre!

Well, yes and no. Yes in that it’s certainly conventional, by which I mean, everywhere. No in that it isn’t quintessential to superhero stories. Costumes are a convention of the genre. Explosions are a convention of the genre. Origin stories explaining superpowers or the development of special skills are a convention of the genre.

Sexism is not necessary. It’s just habit.

Are you calling me a misogynist??

No, but now that you mention it….

If your reaction to a feminist criticism of comics is “But I like comics, and I’m not sexist!”, good for you. I’m glad you’re not sexist. But since you’re not sexist, why would the criticism bother you? You don’t need to identify with it. It’s not about you.

If your reaction is “But I like it and therefore it cannot possibly be sexist!” then you need to check out the concepts of “male privilege” and “patriarchy”. In your own time, please, but some good places to start are listed at the end of this column.

Comics are never going to change. You’re wasting your time.

Goodness, how pessimistic! Your critic probably takes a more optimistic view – that things are bad, but can be changed; that social justice is possible and worth fighting for; that poor depictions and objectification of women can and should be combated, no matter the odds.

And hey, if she’s wrong, is that any of your business? It’s her time to waste.

Unless you mean that comics are never going to change, and you don’t want them to, because you like the status quo right where it is. In that case, I cordially invite you to bite me.
I would add to this that the status quo already has changed, and is changing all the time even in very short breadths of time. Things aren't getting worse or staying the same, they're getting better, which makes awareness and understanding even more important, not less.

I should add that I did not write the linked FAQ. I don't agree with it all. I am also in possession of a penis! :up: However, most of the times it says what I want to say better than me, hence copypasta.
 
Brian, you and I are smart enough to recognize these things in comics, and we're also smart enough to know that certain things do not reflect reality. The people who are not smart enough to know that these things do not reflect reality are also the people who do not recognize these things and will not gain any sexist notions due to the way that Wonder Woman is dressed.

In other words, it doesn't have an effect and it doesn't matter in the long run.
 
This is the internet, I don't need an argument.
 
True enough.

Really though, women's costumes in comics just are more sexualized than men's. There's not a lot of point in spending a lot of time and energy denying it, because well, it's true. I mean god knows I love seeing as much of Powergirl's sensational, smoking hot ass as DC Comics wants to put in a comic, I'm just not going to sit here trying to kid myself that the way they portray her and other female characters isn't vastly different from the way they portray their male characters or that it's fair that I as a dude am presented with as many lovingly produced images of Powergirl's **** as DC could possibly hope to fit into a comic, but a lady and/or Brianwilly who longs for panel after panel lingering on the impertinent cleft of Batman's ass, or Superman's brave, bold, bouncing brief-bulge is basically **** out of luck.
 
I never denied that they're not more sexualized than men. I only stated that it's hardly negative and ultimately doesn't effect women's rights or anything important.
 
but a lady and/or Brianwilly who longs for panel after panel lingering on the impertinent cleft of Batman's ass, or Superman's brave, bold, bouncing brief-bulge is basically **** out of luck.
Out of luck? This is the internet. Have you been here?

I don't really consider myself a feminist. I mean, I'm only feminist because it makes me feel good about myself, but I'm not female, so it's not really supporting women at all. It's just being selfish! :up:

But yes, my biggest peeve about it all is when people start declaring that men and women get it the same in comics, because nooooooo they dooooooon't~
 
BrianWilly said:
You're...wondering why damaging portrayals of women might matter to women? :confused: Wait, no...why any damaging portrayals of any disenfranchised group would matter to that group, since it "doesn't matter in the long run"? So long as you're not the one doing it?

Have a Psyduck, good sir.

I have to echo your sentiments here. Of course how people are portrayed in the media matters.

That said, I don't think that the way female characters are dressed is damaging. I do think the way some are portrayed in terms of personality, or lack thereof is highly offensive and damaging but revealing costumes don't seem like a big deal to me.
 
Out of luck? This is the internet. Have you been here?

I mean official, company-produced depictions of Superman's junk.

Certainly the internet has no shortage of Gamora or Zatanna drawn in whatever way I want to look at them! Yet I am privileged to not even need to resort to going out of my way to find such drawings, as DC will gladly provide them right there in the pages of the comics I enjoy. And I thank them for it! But so do I acknowledge that others are not so fortunate as I.
 
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I want to take this opportunity to thank BrianWilly for the Psyduck. Such an awesome Pokemon.
 
I mean official, company-produced depictions of Superman's junk.

Certainly the internet has no shortage of Gamora or Zatanna drawn in whatever way I want to look at them! Yet I am privileged to not even need to resort to going out of my way to find such drawings, as DC will gladly provide them right there in the pages of the comics I enjoy. And I thank them for it! But so do I acknowledge that others are not so fortunate as I.

Clearly, we need more half naked men in comics. Namor is not enough
 
Namor is clearly more than half naked. He's closer to 7/8 naked.

Also, are you not stunned by the sexiness of the Martian Manhunter?
 
Don't even get me started about that browline.
 
Well from my viewpoint, which is as I've often stated, pretty purist and traditionalist, I have little use for realism in comics, but at the same time, I can certainly see how having a character like Batgirl or Black Canary running around in heels is pretty hard to defend. Much like heroes, I like my superheroines to be super and heroic, and dressing like a tart isn't very heroic to me. I don't mind superheroines being sexy or anything, but I do think a certain amount of class and taste is important as well.
 
RE: High heels I will say in all fairness it occurs to me that they're not entirely stupid in the handful of cases of like, Powergirl or someone to whom gravity literally does not apply.

Still kind of stupid, just not incredibly, counterproductively stupid.



This post actually beautifully demonstrates the double standard you're working from as that Robin's shorts were incredibly revealing relative to most male superheroes yet still covered more than an average superheroine costume.

nice sense of humor :doh: And at their shortest, robin's shorts are essentially just briefs and it's kinda impossible to get shorter than that
 
my point wasn't who was sexualized more but that men are also sexualized physically in comics, at all. And yes huntress's exposed midriff is silly actually makes me confused. but my original point wasn't who was more sexualized in comics
 
First they put Cheetah in pants, now Martian Manhunter. Something needs to be done to put a stop to this :(
 
Pants are inconsequential to the Red Tornado.

RedBulgenator.jpg
 

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