Female Role Models in DC Universe

[Hound55]

Yes it was. Max was defeated and he let Superman go from his control. He could have been easily imprisoned in the Watchtower with psychic dampeners to make sure that he wouldn't take control of anyone again, but Wonder Woman decided to break the neck of a man tied up.

I think I'm going to have to read t again, but I thought Superman WAS still under his control.

Wonder Woman had him tied up but Supes was still a factor, albeit not immediate. She asked Lord while the lasso was around him how he could be stopped and he said "Kill me".

I took that to mean there was no other way to break his hold on Superman and limit the damage short of killing him, so she did...

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

Yes you do; and the reason you fail at it because of your general inability to grasp the distinction between reality and fiction.

And you fail at it because of your general inability to grasp that as soon as the argument turns to meta fictional reasons it ceases to remain valid conversation. How can you say that "she murdered him in cold blood" if you are also to refute others' arguments be explaining "the author did it"? You turn the whole thing into a false equivalency where any argument against is wrong because of meta fictional terms that render in-story arguments invalid, while any you construct is right using both.

If one was to look at the facts in-story-
-While it is acknowledged that many do come back from the dead most characters still operate under the assumption that they won't, at very best not for a long time.
-Max Lord had killed thousands, possibly millions of people.
-Max Lord currently had one of the most dangerous weapons under his control at the time of death - Superman.
-Max Lord also has the power to affect many, many more even in his present state.
-Under the lasso, which reveal only the truth, Max Lord responds the only way to stop him is to "kill me".
-Wonder Woman, while a hero and an ambassador, is also a warrior.
-In the time that Max Lord has been gone, we've had dozens of Joker appearances, the same for Lex, Cheetah, etc.


And while you may be trying to argue something else entirely, your response to SuperFerret's belief in the death penalty - an extremely complex issue that most logical people recognise is a multi-faceted, highly subjective one - as apparent proof that he's kidding himself into wanting to watch "murdurz" says more about your own beliefs than your assessment of the WW incident, with the former perhaps colouring your perception of the latter.

I think I'm going to have to read t again, but I thought Superman WAS still under his control.

Wonder Woman had him tied up but Supes was still a factor, albeit not immediate. She asked Lord while the lasso was around him how he could be stopped and he said "Kill me".

I took that to mean there was no other way to break his hold on Superman and limit the damage short of killing him, so she did...

That is how I recall it as well. Supes was still under his control.

 

[SuperFerret]

In either, actually, as long as we're comparing either real-world death to real-world jail or comics death to comics jail, and not making another attempt to compare the clownish caricature of the prison system in comics to some real-world permanent death which bears little resemblance the hilariously fluid version of mortality portrayed in pretty much every comics universe.

EDIT: Like just as a for instance, we as the real-world people of this actually existing society have managed to engineer what has shown to be a pretty damn permanent real-life fate for this person who was convicted of killing a tiny, tiny fraction of the number of people the Joker has killed over the years, much as we have somehow beaten the odds to ensure that this criminal mastermind has failed to engineer his brilliant escape from our prison system for nearly forty years.

Well, before this conversation continues, we'll have to decide one or the other. In real life, killing monsters like the Joker and Max Lord is a permanent solution to a huge problem. In comics, the distinction between killing the bad guys or sending the bad guys to jail only matters in regards to either (1) no name minions and the average person who isn't coming back to life, or (2) to establish a hero's attitude to allow the creators to write moral arguments between the two sides (like what we're doing here, only we'd be doing it on the moon while wearing spandex).

 

[HarleenQuinnzel]

Would you argue for someone like the Joker to not be put down?[/QUOTE]

Commissioner Gordon actually argues against the Joker being put down in Hush when Batman is about to finally kill the joker. He tells Batman, "You and I have seen more than our fair share of tragedies and thirsted for revenge. If Batman wanted to be a killer, he could have started long ago. But its a line. On one side we believe in the law. On the other...Sometimes the law fails us. Maybe that's why I've understood you...allowed you to help protect this city. Batman, if you cross that line--if you kill the joker tonight---I will lead the hunt to bring you to justice. In the eyes of the law...In my eyes you will be no different from him."

But Wonder Woman is not from Gotham, a city with a law system structured like the USA's. In some comics I've read, she regrets ever killing anyone because she believes it is never worth it. But she also lets victims choose revenge for themselves. She will not make herself judge and jury (except in defense in the face of ensuing destruction for someone she has sworn to protect). In that way, she is uniquely awesome.

 

[HarleenQuinnzel]

Thanks Harleen

You should check out the Batwoman Elegy graphic novel it is really

kk! t: thnx. just another female facet to my lovely comic collection!

 

[SuperFerret]

Jim Gordon is not Diana of Themyscira. He learned how to be an officer of the law, and was trained to take down criminals. She learned how to be a warrior, and was trained to take out monsters. There's a difference.

She even spells it out in this scene, where they're discussing what happened with Dr. Light.

 

[HarleenQuinnzel]

Jim Gordon is not Diana of Themyscira. He learned how to be an officer of the law, and was trained to take down criminals. She learned how to be a warrior, and was trained to take out monsters. There's a difference.

But who is to decide who is the monster and who is just a criminal? I think even though Diana defends herself by calling him a monster, her best defense is to say that she was in combat and Max posed an immediate threat. Self defense is the only just reason to ever kill, self defense and defense of an innocent.

Does anyone lose respect for Diana when she chooses to kill Max? I can't say I do. You can't call what she did a preemptive self-defense attack. If she went and snapped his neck because she thought he had some "WMD" (superman) but wasn't completely sure then it would be different. She's not America here.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I lost a bit of respect for her. Not a lot, and I understand the decision, but at the same time, she's a superhero. To me, part of being a superhero, as opposed to a cop or a soldier or any of the other everyday heroes of real-life society, is finding better ways to deal with situations than killing.

 

[SuperFerret]

I gained respect for her for that.

 

[BrianWilly]

I didn't lose or gain respect, I just thought it was interesting.

But meanwhile, this is my female role model in the DCU:

 

[fifthfiend]

-In the time that Max Lord has been gone, we've had dozens of Joker appearances, the same for Lex, Cheetah, etc.

Getting shot in the face sure stopped any of those appearances by the Joker, didn't it

Oh

Wait

...It's a good thing Lex Luthor never faked his death and then promptly came back as his own cloned son, or like, actually died and then came back hardly any time later, or it'd look real silly to suggest that killing him would have been some kind of solution.

Hmmmmm

Well, before this conversation continues, we'll have to decide one or the other. In real life, killing monsters like the Joker and Max Lord is a permanent solution to a huge problem.

Not really, you just put bad people (who actually aren't monsters but are in actuality people, like you, but just really awful ones who've done disgusting things) in jail for the rest of their lives, and then they just stay there.

She even spells it out in this scene, where they're discussing what happened with Dr. Light.

She deffo spells out one of the dumbest things I've ever read anywhere, ever.

 

[BrianWilly]

You don't think cops should be allowed to use guns, then?

Don't get me wrong; there's probably a case to be made for cops not being allowed to kill people, especially when you start going outside the US. But if you think killing someone to save lives is a dumb principle, then you better be calling every police officer in the country a flaming ****** 'cause they sure as hell are all willing to do the same.

And especially when you start looking back on Wonder Woman's own history. She kills Medousa, everyone thinks it's "epic." She kills Deimos, Briareos, loads of Khunds, Ares, Decay, whatever, it's just another day on the job. She kills Max Lord, all of a sudden it's different? Seriously, why?

 

[Manic]

You know the rules of comics. It doesn't count if the person you're killing isn't recognizably human.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Honestly, this entire conversation that's spawned from this is a good example of putting a real life weight and context to a superhero world and universe, which is easily the single worst thing you can do, and is probably a good reason why comics has fallen a lot into the grim and gritty crap that still haunts us to this day.

And I have to point out the irony that the guy whose always quick to call out Rorschach as a horrible misrepresentation of heroes, and bemoan people for looking at him as a model hero, is now arguing about how a very Rorschach like position and attitude are respectable for a superhero to have. Hey, just saying and all

 

[Manic]

Rorschach would call Wonder Woman a dirty feminist hippie.

 

[The Question]

You don't think cops should be allowed to use guns, then?

Don't get me wrong; there's probably a case to be made for cops not being allowed to kill people, especially when you start going outside the US. But if you think killing someone to save lives is a dumb principle, then you better be calling every police officer in the country a flaming ****** 'cause they sure as hell are all willing to do the same.

And especially when you start looking back on Wonder Woman's own history. She kills Medousa, everyone thinks it's "epic." She kills Deimos, Briareos, loads of Khunds, Ares, Decay, whatever, it's just another day on the job. She kills Max Lord, all of a sudden it's different? Seriously, why?

That's how I see it. There's a difference between cold blooded murder and killing someone because your only other choice was a significantly higher body count. If she killed Max because he was a bastard, I'd take issue with it. But she didn't. She killed him because there was no other way to break his hold of Superman.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Rorschach would call Wonder Woman a dirty feminist hippie.

Rorschach would probably *********e to that scan of Wonder Woman SF posted, if Rorschach *********es at all.

 

[Tron Bonne]

That's how I see it. There's a difference between cold blooded murder and killing someone because your only other choice was a significantly higher body count. If she killed Max because he was a bastard, I'd take issue with it. But she didn't. She killed him because there was no other way to break his hold of Superman.

'There's always a way.'

 

[Hound55]

Rorschach would call Wonder Woman a dirty feminist hippie.

Who dresses like a ****e.

 

[Manic]

Rorschach would probably *********e to that scan of Wonder Woman SF posted, if Rorschach *********es at all.

As if Rorschach has a sex drive.

'There's always a way.'

And sometimes that way is to kill a murderer before he can murder anyone else.

 

[Tron Bonne]

And sometimes that way is to kill a murderer before he can murder anyone else.

You disagree with All Star Superman?

 

[The Question]

'There's always a way.'

Only if the writer writes one.

 

[Manic]

You disagree with All Star Superman?

Um... yes, apparently.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Well, that's kind of one of the main points of that story and how Grant Morrison used Superman, so yeah.

Only if the writer writes one.

Obviously, but with superheroes, there always should be. Otherwise, seriously, what's the point?

 

[The Question]

Obviously, but with superheroes, there always should be. Otherwise, seriously, what's the point?

Telling different types of stories and making a more nuanced, or at least different, meditation on ethics? I personally prefer injecting this kind of realism in super hero stories. If super heroes are supposed to inspire us morally, and they always have easy moral decisions, then it accomplishes nothing. If they're highly moral people who find themselves, from time to time, in situations where there is no other way, and the story explores how they deal with that ethically, then that can actually impact our morals and how we engage the world in a meaningful way. Not to say that super heroes finding another way can't engage us and shape our morals meaningfully, showing how ethical people think their way out of murky ethical situations and find a better way is also an incredibly important lesson for people to learn, as well as people who are steadfast in their morals against injustice from the get to. But if their lives are nothing but third options and easy moral decisions, then they lose impact as role models. They can't teach us to be better people if they don't go through real psychological and emotional conflict.