Final Crisis VS Batman RIP

[Keyser Soze]

So, now DC's two biggest events of 2008 - Final Crisis and Batman RIP - are both finished. Both were written by Grant Morrison. Both proved to be highly controversial and divisive amongst the fanbase. But which story is better, and why?

I would have made this thread a poll, but can't seem to find the option to do so. So for now, the best starting point would be for us to state our case, and discuss the strengths and weaknesses of each story, before each of us comes to a conclusion on what is the superior story. Or, of course, there is the argument that they are essentially one big story, what with the Last Rites bridging act.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Batman RIP while having poor promotion as Batman's death was far better executed than Final Crisis.

Final Crisis had the potential to be better than RIP, but it's execution was poor. It should have had a consistent artist that comes out on time. Countdown to Final Crisis should have had Morrison's involvement. And it should have been longer including the Superman Beyond, Submit, and Resist one shots. It should have gone more in detail with Darkseid and Mandrak. Almost everything should have had more detail.

 

[Blader5489]

Final Crisis

FC is certainly fraught with problems of all kinds, whereas RIP is mostly pretty solid in its execution. But in the end, RIP totally squandered all of it's dramatic build-up with a final issue so completely anti-climactic that I had to double-check that it was actually written by Morrison. FC, on the other hand, is a pretty consistently enjoyable story throughout all 7 issues with an appropriate ending.

 

[Stallion9979]

I'll be honest...did'nt really like either series too much...I liked the concepts and what was trying to be established I just hated the execution...

But at least RIP affected the status quo of only Batman where as FC I think messed everything up...FC should've been outside continuity then on its own it might've been just way differently then it was...

 

[Motown Marvel]

well, i enjoyed both. but RIP was more understandable and comprehensive. i agree with the above post that FC shoulda been longer, more detail, and included certain books that were relegated to tie-ins. i didnt really read any of the FC tie-in's, thinking they werent essential, and i think my understanding of the story suffered because of it.

 

[Aristotle]

Final Crisis. It dealt with the issues Morrison's been driving at for two decades, on the most epic possible scale.

But I did love RIP.

 

[Assassin]

FC, the best part of Batman RIP was the FC tie-in after RIP lol

 

[Keyser Soze]

Now, I've only read each event through the one time. When I go back and reread each story start-to-finish (as I intend to), I will likely come back with more in-depth thoughts and comparisons, and perhaps even a different conclusion. But for now, I'd have to go with Batman RIP as the better story of the two.

Both had a lot of plates spinning, and both tried some ambitious, ballsy stuff. And while both got rejected by some as too "confusing", and I will admit to acknowleding the trippiness of certain moments in both tales, I for one never felt lost or alienated from either story.

But ultimately, it all comes down to the end, the climactic payoff for the reader. And while I think Batman RIP knew the exact moment to take all its spinning plates and ambitious ideas, and draw them all into a concise, precisely targeted package of a conclusion, Final Crisis just kept on expanding and expanding in its scope, to the point that it's final message became somewhat diluted. But that said, I greatly enjoyed both stories, and look forward to studying both in greater detail.

I'll also say that Final Crisis has Batman RIP beat when it comes to tie-ins.

 

[Aristotle]

I'll also say that Final Crisis has Batman RIP beat when it comes to tie-ins.

That can be seen as a pretty good experiment in which model works better: tons of tie-ins, or tightly confined ones? FC kept its tie-ins confined to spinoff miniseries and one-shots. RIP was bannered on all manner of stories that were only tangentially related, occurring shortly after or shortly before the events of RIP. They were not important to the story at all, and that made them disappointing as tie-ins. They were probably really good as stories, but they seemed more disappointing because they were supposed to tie in.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I preferred RIP, but FC is an excellent event unlike any I've read in some time, once I understood it more appropiately.

 

[javi1024]

first time through i hated both stories. but i have gone back with RIP a couple of times now with Last Rites and FC ended, and i can enjoy and appreciate it more now. but i'm not really big on DC to begin with so another story where the multiverse and all reality is going to hell doesn't do anything for me. but the only reason i want to go back to read Final Crisis again is to see if i can understand where the FC defenders are coming from.

 

[Keyser Soze]

In striving for a concise way to try and explain how these events have split audiences so much, and been so controversial, I'd propose this: Final Crisis and Batman RIP are both great stories, cursed with terrible titles.

 

[DavidTyler]

After reading them both, I have to say that neither inspired me to want to go back and re-read them.

The deaths of Jonn and The original Question kind of turned me off to the whole concept of rebooting the DC universe. FC was kind of meh for me.

RIP, on the other hand, was a bit more to my liking but just seemed to go on forever. I never once beleived that DC was doing away with Bruce Wayne so I had to rely on the story itself to engage me ... which it did .. but not to the same extent that the death of Superman did. Might just be a case of .. after Superman, everyone's done it. I think the broken spine story arc (up until the overdone costume on Azrael) was a bit more engaging but the characters in RIP grabbed me a bit more.

 

[Aristotle]

The deaths of Jonn and The original Question kind of turned me off to the whole concept of rebooting the DC universe. FC was kind of meh for me.

I hate to beat on this drum, but why does anyone get worked up about death in comics anymore? Bart Allen's back after, what, a year? Conner's coming back after maybe three and a half. Ollie Queen came back after something like five years. Superman came back after a year and a half or something like that. Death is meaningless now in comics. You gotta look for something other than just what events happened in a comic. Events are undone all the time. But well-crafted stories are never unmade.

so I had to rely on the story itself to engage me ... which it did .. but not to the same extent that the death of Superman did. Might just be a case of .. after Superman, everyone's done it. I think the broken spine story arc (up until the overdone costume on Azrael) was a bit more engaging but the characters in RIP grabbed me a bit more.

Wow. We just don't agree on what makes a good story then, if Knightfall and Death of Superman are your barometers. I admit, that last issue where it was all splashes when Superman and Doomsday were fighting was kinda cool in its design and construction, and in a way it's what got me into comics, but neither of those stories had anywhere near the finesse and complexity and technical ability that RIP had.

 

[WolfCypher]

Batman RIP > Final Crisis...


But at least Final Crisis >>> Secret Invasion

 

[El Bastardo]

Which story is better? I'd have to say Final Crisis.
Which story did I enjoy more? That'd be RIP.

I love the way RIP was written and executed, from its structure to all its little details and Silver Age nods to how it was the utter culmination of all of Morrison's work on the character since 52 (if not longer). And, at the end of the day, I'm more of a Batman person than I am a DC Cosmic-and-overall-Universe person. But that's totally a guilty bias on my part.

As a story, as a commentary, as a level of utter mind**** and brilliance and use of the medium and whatever else I'm disregarding commas to include, Final Crisis shines brighter, though. And, like Aristotle wrote, the epic dealing with of issues. And what not.

 

[Hush]

Im buying Rip wed. ill tell you guys then what i think.

 

[DavidTyler]

I hate to beat on this drum, but why does anyone get worked up about death in comics anymore? Bart Allen's back after, what, a year? Conner's coming back after maybe three and a half. Ollie Queen came back after something like five years. Superman came back after a year and a half or something like that. Death is meaningless now in comics. You gotta look for something other than just what events happened in a comic. Events are undone all the time. But well-crafted stories are never unmade.

Actually, that was my point. It's such an obvious device that it turns me off. ... and for different reasons. Jonn's death is a ploy to work the fans up and the death of the original Question was a device to allow them to replace the character with a female - in the case Montoya. Just a waste of ink. It was all so ham fisted.

Wow. We just don't agree on what makes a good story then, if Knightfall and Death of Superman are your barometers. I admit, that last issue where it was all splashes when Superman and Doomsday were fighting was kinda cool in its design and construction, and in a way it's what got me into comics, but neither of those stories had anywhere near the finesse and complexity and technical ability that RIP had.

You misunderstand - Knightfall is not what I use as a measure. It was an OK idea that worked fine in the beginning and became increasingly 'not good' as it went along. Knightfall should have been many issues less and condensed down to what was really needed.

The Death of Superman, however, was well handled IMO. There was quite a bit of depth and emotion. The writing was OK and, even though there had been one shots like this when I was groing up, brought complexity and realistic character portrayals that hadn't been seen in any of those one shots.

While FC had a lot of complexity and some interesting character moments, it sacrificed cohesiveness. And it contained a few too many obvious contrivances.... although The Question's death was handled interstingly.

RIP I thought was the better written of the two ... again .. it's boredom with the 'death' device.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I hate to beat on this drum, but why does anyone get worked up about death in comics anymore? Bart Allen's back after, what, a year? Conner's coming back after maybe three and a half. Ollie Queen came back after something like five years. Superman came back after a year and a half or something like that. Death is meaningless now in comics. You gotta look for something other than just what events happened in a comic. Events are undone all the time. But well-crafted stories are never unmade.

And Batman's died twice and came back in the next issue both times

 

[DavidTyler]

My point exactly. Killing off a character that you know is going to resurrect pretty quickly is just anti-climactic.

With the death of Superman, it was more about 'how are they going to get things back to normal' rather than 'OMG - how will we all carry on without Superman'. It was pretty niave to think they weren't going to bring him back.

 

[Aristotle]

I don't see why this is suddenly such a terrible thing NOW, though. No one *****ed about it in the 70s. Superhero comics have always teased death as a way of boosting sales. "Buy this issue or the Flash dies!" "Robin dies at dawn!" "Aunt May dies!" "Not a dream! Not an imaginary story!" It's part of the language.

 

[Wally West]

O.K., please excuse my ignorance on the matter, but I was laid off this summer and while I have found a way to come up with a few extra bucks here and there to buy and read Final Crisis, I haven't read R.I.P and know nothing about the storyline other than the obvious implications given from the title.

How did R.I.P. fit in with Batman's "death" in final crisis? Or are the two storylines even connected at all?

 

[Aristotle]

O.K., please excuse my ignorance on the matter, but I've been unemployed since aug and while I have found a way to come up with a few extra bucks here and there to buy and read Final Crisis, I haven't read R.I.P and know nothing about the storyline other than the obvious implications given from the title.

How did R.I.P. fit in with Batman's "death" in final crisis? Or are the two storylines even connected at all?

Yeah, very connected. Do you plan to read RIP? I don't want to spoil it for you if you do.

 

[Blader5489]

Or are the two storylines even connected at all?

They aren't.

 

[Wally West]

Yeah, very connected. Do you plan to read RIP? I don't want to spoil it for you if you do.

Yes I'm planning on it, eventually. I'd like to read it more now that I know the two stories are connected.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.