So, I just read Final Crisis.

[random_havoc]

So I just read Final Crisis (via the hardcover), and I have to say, that was one terrible story.

I found very little of it made coherent sense, and the idea that they win via a miracle machine was a pretty pathetic conclusion. The whole Batman versus Darkseid moment lacked any feeling of drama and seemed to come up out of nowhere.

There were a few cool moments but overall I felt like it was a big waste of time.

The only thing consistently good in it to me was the artwork.

So, I know I'm late in getting on to this topic, but I was wondering about everyone else's thoughts. Anyone else feel the same? Did you really love the story? Thoughts?

 

[Ultimate_Superman]

Final Crisis would have been much better had Countdown to Final Crisis actually followed the story line for Final Crisis. What made IC so good is the build up to it and all the tie ins and the big payoffs we got. I mean look at the Superman books leading up to IC everything in the books lead up to the first page you saw with Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman at Watchtower. With FC it was all over the place that there was no lead in and really no effect for anything expect for Batman. I mean look at what was going on at the time Superman was dealing with New Krypton and Legion of 3 Worlds was delayed because the main book was so far behind and it was stealing the main titles thunder. Which in turn changed the outcome of who Nightwing and Flamebird were suppose to be (Conner and Cassie). Batman had R.I.P. going on. So it was just really a complete mess and if you didn't read Morrison Seven Soldiers before hand you wouldn't have understood the fall of the Gods. So it was just a complete mess really. It was not a bad concept or story just poor planing which had the book all over the place.

 

[Mystirious]

I couldn't get into it, honestly. I like Morrisson normally but this time around I just couldn't enjoy it. It felt rushed in places, padded in others and the conclusion was far too much of an anti-climax

 

[Ipodman]

Like most people, I found it too messy....
although I must say I really enjoyed the Superman... man, what was it called? Two issues of Superman tie-ins.... where Clayface attacks the Daily Planet. That two issues was cool

 

[AnorexicBatman]

I like the part where the whole DC universe shows up and attack the FINAL BOSS

 

[Drz]

I'm more ******** over the fact Morrison changed Final Crisis abit for his 3rd Batman & Robin arc.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Final Crisis is the perfect example of great story ideas but various factors such as being far too short (killing much dramatic tension and creating massive confusion), massive delays, poor editorial decisions, etc.

I've often thought long and hard on how Final Crisis should have gone:

1. Doug Mahnke should have done the art throughout the entire series.

2. Countdown to Final Crisis should have been guided by Grant Morrison with Paul Dini, Geoff Johns, Tony Bedard, Jimmy Palmiotti and Justin Grey, Peter Tomasi, Gail Simone, Greg Rucka on writing duties to properly set up Final Crisis. You'd have each writer write just a month (or two) of scripts as opposed to everyone writing at the same time like in 52, so that way no one writer would be overwhelmed.

The story would be Darkseid manipulating the Monitors, Superboy Prime, and Monarch, fighting the cosmic war in which evil won, ending with Darkseid's "death" so that the Fifth World would be created in his image.

In order to prepare the Earth for his Fifth World, Darkseid chooses Libra to create a new Secret Society of Supervillains. Their main task with the Sheeda is to kill the New Gods who have chosen to live on Earth (Mr. Miracle, Big Barda, whatnot) and to take control of the Spectre.

The Search for Ray Palmer throughout the Multiverse would have Hawkman, Ryan Choi, Adam Strange, and Ray's Teen Titans.

There would be no Jimmy Olsen, no Piper and Trickster, no Jason Todd, Donna Troy, and Kyle Rayner, no Harley and Holly, and no Legion of Superheroes.

3. It should have been longer to better develop ideas particularly Darkseid's machinations and the Multiverse.

4. It should have focused on a specific set of characters:
- Superman travelling throughout the multiverse gathering various Supermen giving some dimension to the DC Multiverse, instead of Superman just popping up and showing bizarre universes where everyone is black, or simply Nazis, and whatnot. I think Superman trying to recruit Ultraman, Captain Marvel, Captain Atom, Uncle Sam, Mister Majestic, Red Son Superman, Kingdom Come Superman, and whatnot, would be cool.

- Batman struggling with his imprisonment by the New Gods. His efforts, while failing to kill Darkseid and leading to his death, would create massive setbacks for Darkseid helping the resistance find victory.

- Barry Allen coming back. Really the guy comes back and you don't have anything dealing with him going "I'm alive!? How?"

- The Martian Manhunter and his death. Signalling the first strike of Darkseid, Libra and the Society, and the Sheeda against the DC Universe after Darkseid's victory over New Genesis. The Martian Manhunter would have gone down like he did and the heroes would mourn like in Final Crisis: Requiem as opposed to just a few panels that he got in Final Crisis proper.

- Aurakles and the Seven Soldiers (Shilo Norman, Zatanna, Manhattan Guardian, Frankenstein, Yistina, Bulleteer, and Klarion) trying to form a resistance against Darkseid's Fifth World. It would be a small resistance having Green Arrow, Black Canary, Supergirl, Ray Palmer, Red Arrow, Speedy, Connor Hawke, Vigilante, Halo, Stargirl, S.T.R.I.P.E., Barry Allen, the Crimson Avenger, Wing, and Mr. Terrific. Everyone else on Earth would be imprisoned. So the odds are completely against them until Batman's efforts allow the Green Lantern Corps to arrive on Earth and Superman returning from the Multiverse with the 52 Supermen.

- And Wonder Woman leading the Female Furies (Mary Marvel, Starfire, Power Girl, Donna Troy, Wonder Girl, Hawkgirl, Raven, and Jesse Quick) under Darkseid's control.

Those characters should have been given the focus instead of Morrison trying to cram in everyone from the DC Universe in for the sake of having them. Just like in Crisis of Infinite Earths where while everyone was in, the focus was on Barry Allen, Harbinger, the Supermen of Earth-1 and Earth-2, the Monitor, etc.

5. No Mandrakk, seriously WTF.

 

[Mystirious]

It sounds to me like that would have been much better than what we actualy got. Though that's not hard, admittedly as what we got was...Countdown.

 

[Iron Man]

6. Don't have Superman defeating Darkseid's spirit by singing at it.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Well, I think there's some things to keep in mind about Final Crisis:

1) It's kind of fractured story in a lot of ways. If you remember the first issue that had Vandal Savage raiding the cave to get that cavewoman (I think it was Savage anyway), you only see him come in and then the next panel you see him dragging her off. You kind of have to fill in the blanks even though the blanks are pretty obvious to what happens. That happens a lot through the series; you see the cause and effect, but not really the in-between. It's not that it's hard to read, it's just written in a way you're probably not too use to reading

2) It's also fractured more in a literal sense. I assume you only read the seven issue mini by itself? You say that the stuff with Batman and the Dream Machine came out of nowhere, and they kind of did with just the mini, but if you read the Batman issues that tied in and the Superman Beyond mini you'll see that they weren't really out of nowhere. Of course, you kind of have to read these things for them not to feel like they came out of nowhere, and without them, almost the entirety of issue 6 and 7 seem like Morrison totally pulled it out of his ass.

So, yeah, it's kind of a case of too much for what little space was allotted. Also,

3) The story isn't meant as totally literal I don't think. A lot of it is metatextual/metficitonal in nature and there's all kinds of various interpretations of what so-and-so is really being said and implied about the nature of stories, the character's roles, etc. It's also meant as one giant homage to DC's past Crisis's and history in general. So, yeah, there's that.

It's really not a traditional event, or comic story for that matter, really

 

[fifthfiend]

Final Crisis is the perfect example of great story ideas but various factors such as being far too short (killing much dramatic tension and creating massive confusion), massive delays, poor editorial decisions, etc.

1) It's kind of fractured story in a lot of ways.

The thing I remember most about Tottle's EPIC Final Crisis Is Great You Plebians Just Don't Understand posts was him trying to defend this.

 

[El Bastardo]

Final Crisis is pretty damn good. Or was, technically. Whatever.

Tron Bonne hit the figurative nail right on the head, to be honest. Though I never read Morrison's other Final Crisis related material (with the exception of the couple issues of Batman that directly tied in) and wasn't really thrown off by the finale of Final Crisis, because of the structure of it all.

 

[ImWithTeamConan]

I read FC in its entirety and I enjoyed it quite a bit. But here's the thing. I think it works as a Grant Morrison story, not an event story. It reads better as a collection than in single issues.

The only problem I had was the structure of the last issue with the narration being post-story. Very anti-climactic.

 

[hippie_hunter]

6. Don't have Superman defeating Darkseid's spirit by singing at it.

I always pictured Darkseid's last stand to be a massive clash with the superheroes. Superman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern in particular.

 

[BrianWilly]

I liked Final Crisis. I thought it was ambitious and interesting and far easier to understand than people often make it out to be.

That said, I completely understand why someone wouldn't like it. And I was irritated at Morrison being ******** its reception.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I liked Final Crisis. I thought it was ambitious and interesting and far easier to understand than people often make it out to be.

That said, I completely understand why someone wouldn't like it. And I was irritated at Morrison being ******** its reception.

Woah, seriously? What was said o_o

 

[Manic]

I have the same problem with Final Crisis that I had with Morrison's Seven Soldiers. The build-up wrote a check that the conclusion couldn't cash. I was expecting a spectacular finish to the story, not a jumbled mess where the villain has to be defeated 10,000 ways simultaneously (Quickly, let's use the lasso of truth on him, shoot him, trick Death into running into him, and sing at him!)-- some of which I didn't understand that well because I didn't read any of the tie-ins. Apparently I had to read Superman Beyond to know why singing at Darkseid finished him off. Without that, it looked like something that came out of ****ing nowhere. Tie-ins are the #1 reason I refuse to read most events. I don't remember who told me Final Crisis was supposed to be readable as a stand-alone mini, but they lied to me.


And I remember Aristotle's crusade to insult the intelligence of anyone who disliked Final Crisis. I hadn't even read it yet when I said I wasn't a fan of deus ex machinas because they're often used as cheap ploys by the author because they've written themselves into a corner. To put it bluntly, he called me an idiot. I'm glad he's gone.

 

[BrianWilly]

Woah, seriously? What was said o_o

First of all I guess that should say "******** at its reception."

Secondly, I'm totally exaggerating, so...sorry if you were seeking teh drama. I don't even really remember what he said specifically that annoyed me but, basically, around the time FC ended there was this marathon whirlwind of interviews where Morrison did nothing but try to explain the series to the interviewers and the readers, over and over again. Nothing weird about that, though I got the impression that he worked his ass off to create this series just the way he wanted it to be done, totally poured his heart into it, and that he was really disappointed that people weren't getting it. So that sucks.

The thing is that at some point there was this sort of martyred, apologist tone that crept into his responses that I found pretty irritating. I can't really describe it other than him trying a little too hard to explain things, to the point that he was practically incredulous that people weren't following along with his precious baby. Again, my personal impression.

And I just remember thinking at the time, look Morrison, you handed quantum theory and pop art to comic-book readers. A bunch of people who flip out and suffer strokes when Batman gets punched by Hal Jordan. Worse, you packaged this thing -- which was basically an experimental art-house project -- as a blockbuster summer event. What did you imagine would happen? It would have been nice if the universe just collectively fell into synch with your progress genius but, honestly, can you really act surprised that it didn't?

It was that thing where I felt bad for the guy, but I also wanted him to stop digging his own grave and just get over it, to put it bluntly. Or it could have just been me displacing weird vibes onto Morrison.

 

[El Bastardo]

I have the same problem with Final Crisis that I had with Morrison's Seven Soldiers. The build-up wrote a check that the conclusion couldn't cash. I was expecting a spectacular finish to the story, not a jumbled mess where the villain has to be defeated 10,000 ways simultaneously (Quickly, let's use the lasso of truth on him, shoot him, trick Death into running into him, and sing at him!)-- some of which I didn't understand that well because I didn't read any of the tie-ins. Apparently I had to read Superman Beyond to know why singing at Darkseid finished him off. Without that, it looked like something that came out of ****ing nowhere. Tie-ins are the #1 reason I refuse to read most events. I don't remember who told me Final Crisis was supposed to be readable as a stand-alone mini, but they lied to me.


And I remember Aristotle's crusade to insult the intelligence of anyone who disliked Final Crisis. I hadn't even read it yet when I said I wasn't a fan of deus ex machinas because they're often used as cheap ploys by the author because they've written themselves into a corner. To put it bluntly, he called me an idiot. I'm glad he's gone.

Except it wasn't a deus ex machina. Well, I guess it technically was, but its purpose wasn't the purpose of typical deus ex machina. It was a deus ex machina to suit the purposes of the story, because the story itself - and the nature itself of the story - required the deus ex machina, because that's what Morrison's Final Crisis Superman himself is to the DCU at large.

And you didn't need to read Morrison's tie-ins. I didn't.

 

[Manic]

Aristotle was the one who said Final Crisis involved deus ex machinas, which was why I stated my opinion on them in the first place. Remember, this was before I'd even read the comic.

Not not reading the tie-ins totally makes the singing scene look stupid. It makes no sense within the context of the Final Crisis mini. What was that song? Was it the life equation or something? Is that why it killed Darkseid? Where did Superman learn it? Hell, if those questions aren't answered in Superman Beyond, I'll be even more pissed off.

 

[El Bastardo]

Yes, Superman was singing the life equation, which would be the opposite of Darkseid's anti-life equation. (Not that I need to explain that to you. I just wrote it out for completion's sake.) And yes, it's why it killed Darkseid. Not the physical shell of Darkseid, but the spirit of Darkseid. It all spells out to something more, in a metaphysical sense, that Darkseid can't just be defeated because he's a dark part of the universe, same as Mandrakk and all that other bull**** that pops up from the tie-ins, but also is, within the context of Final Crisis itself, inconsequential - it all comes down to the main hypothesis of the story and of its own fabulation that the only way to beat all this stuff is with joy, happiness - life - and the only one who can do that is Superman, because he is all of those things, and he's the entire reason why the DCU exists, or can exist. It's basically a giant manifesto by Morrison of the DCU.

For clarification: Darkseid's mortal/immortal physical shell, once wounded by the god-bullet (I forget what it was called) to make him vulnerable, could only be put away by Death itself (a deus ex machina in and of itself) in the body/form of the Black Racer (I think that's what it was named) but, once this was done, the metaphysical and spiritual manifestation of evil was able to roam and begin breaking down the foundations of the universe with the Anti-Life Equation, to be the ending of all endings. And the only way to stop this is with the Miracle Machine, to wish for a happy ending - and the only person who can do this, at the core of the universe, is the man who makes the universe possible, Superman. And yes, it means he has to sing the Life Equation. And he wins.

And it being Morrison's manifesto of the DCU is why it doesn't work as an event comic. Rather, it's why it doesn't work as an event comic as defined mostly by Marvel. I think it actually works rather well as a DC event - or, again, rather as a capstone to DC's Crisis events, assuming they actually hold up to their end of the bargain and do not, in three years, have a new Crisis to end all Crises.

 

[yenaled]

Final Crisis was awesome. It was like going to the cinema to watch Transformers 2 and finding out it was actually Pi.

 

[Manic]

Yes, Superman was singing the life equation, which would be the opposite of Darkseid's anti-life equation. (Not that I need to explain that to you. I just wrote it out for completion's sake.) And yes, it's why it killed Darkseid. Not the physical shell of Darkseid, but the spirit of Darkseid. It all spells out to something more, in a metaphysical sense, that Darkseid can't just be defeated because he's a dark part of the universe, same as Mandrakk and all that other bull**** that pops up from the tie-ins, but also is, within the context of Final Crisis itself, inconsequential - it all comes down to the main hypothesis of the story and of its own fabulation that the only way to beat all this stuff is with joy, happiness - life - and the only one who can do that is Superman, because he is all of those things, and he's the entire reason why the DCU exists, or can exist. It's basically a giant manifesto by Morrison of the DCU.

For clarification: Darkseid's mortal/immortal physical shell, once wounded by the god-bullet (I forget what it was called) to make him vulnerable, could only be put away by Death itself (a deus ex machina in and of itself) in the body/form of the Black Racer (I think that's what it was named) but, once this was done, the metaphysical and spiritual manifestation of evil was able to roam and begin breaking down the foundations of the universe with the Anti-Life Equation, to be the ending of all endings. And the only way to stop this is with the Miracle Machine, to wish for a happy ending - and the only person who can do this, at the core of the universe, is the man who makes the universe possible, Superman. And yes, it means he has to sing the Life Equation. And he wins.

And it being Morrison's manifesto of the DCU is why it doesn't work as an event comic. Rather, it's why it doesn't work as an event comic as defined mostly by Marvel. I think it actually works rather well as a DC event - or, again, rather as a capstone to DC's Crisis events, assuming they actually hold up to their end of the bargain and do not, in three years, have a new Crisis to end all Crises.

So... Superman was the only one who could save the day because Superman is so good and awesome? You're right. That is incredibly meta. Physical and fictional. By that logic, I apparently don't need to know why Superman knows the life equation or why he was specifically chosen to build and make the wish on the god machine, because Superman is the nectar of God's balls and the universe literally revolves around him.

From a straight forward perspective, that's a terrible ending. It pretty much only works as a giant metaphor for how the DC Universe works from the perspective of its readers and writers, not from the perspective of the characters within the universe itself. Because if Clark knew that the universe revolved around him in a metafictional sense (ie. actually viewing himself as God and the #1 protagonist of the whole of reality), he wouldn't be the character I know and love.

 

[El Bastardo]

Final Crisis was awesome. It was like going to the cinema to watch Transformers 2 and finding out it was actually Pi.

I think this statement is made of pure awesome.

And yeah, Manic. But Final Crisis isn't a straight-forward story. It is, as you described, a metaphor of the DCU and a metafictional piece, all the while cruising and posing as a straight-forward event story.

It's very much a continuation of, especially, Morrison's Seven Soldiers, some of his work from 52, and in turn some of his work from Batman. (Not much of it, on the latter two.)

But Morrison connects pretty much everything, so no surprise.

Edit: For the record, I actually dropped Final Crisis after issue 2, I think it was. I was buying a ton of books at the time, and since I don't follow much DC, I didn't think I was going to be able to follow some world-wide DC hero and villain stuff. Morrison's Batman led me back to Final Crisis with #6, though, and after reading through it and getting another taste, I went back and picked up 3, 4, and 5, and eventually picked up 7 when it hit stands.

I also earned the derision of Morrison-scholar Tim Callahan, who I know outside of internet-lands and who goes to the same comic store I go to. And who teaches at the high school I once upon a time went to. And then I read up-to-date, and he and I spoke again. It was a very touching moment.

There's a lot more to Final Crisis and its metafictional / metaphysical nature than just the ending, though.

 

[Manic]

That reminds me: Thank god I'd read Seven Soldiers prior to that, or the Dark Side stuff would've been confusing as all hell. I'd also have no clue what's going on with Bruce Wayne right now. Morrison really does play the long game, doesn't he?