"First Steps" Season 2: Episode 18 Discussion Thread

[varsas]

Why would water have no effect? It's still sand. If hardening his body was all he had to do, then he'd do it every time. He doesn't need extra sand to make his body hard, he does it all the time when making a fist or whatever.

...

Now guys, I love this show as much as you. But it's got it's flaws. This is one of them. Anyone who knows Spidey knows about the spider sense and how it works. There's the proof above. Peter's spider sense should have reacted to Brock's presence.

Some of you are telling me Greg outline the new boundries of the spider sense in some interview. Poor way to let the audience know that. You tell it in the show.

It's a flaw. Not the end of the world. Nothing is flawless. Well, except maybe 'Shear Strength'

Regarding the sand and water, Marko not being affected by the water is quite easy to explain. Previously he would fall apart due his body absorbing water but with an almost unlimited supply of sand he is able to continually renew his core and keep it dry.

Regarding the spider-sense, it's only a flaw if you consider the complete Spider-Man canon; in terms of the show's universe it isn't a flaw. I'm pretty sure I did read something from Greg about this, perhaps someone can find it or ask Greg? In any case as I remember he said that the sense has been inconsistently used in the comics and so it makes sense to set a specific boundary for the show. My understanding if it is that it only goes off if there is an immediate threat that Peter can not see.

Greg didn't need to explain why the identity of Shocker changed, in the show, so I don't see why he would need to explain the differences regarding the spider-sense. Imho the most important thing is to be consistent within this interpretation.

EDIT: I found the spider-sense answer: http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10496

Exactly what I was thinking. I would really want to see an episode about Peter's and Eddie's relationship. From how they were first setup, it seems they were very much like brothers, and you can't really take that away from a person no matter how bad they gets, symbiote can never truly eradicate that brotherly bond between them. Therefore, I think it would be logical for Eddie to swallow his anger and see through it, be friends with Peter again whether it's in his last moment or not.

The thing is that after the first incident in season 1 their relationship was slowly being chipped away by Peter's actions and Eddie's instability; fuelled by the symbiote I think love/affection turning to hate is believable.


On topic, I loved the episode and the character development!

 

[November Rain]

again, i'm loving sandman and the rhino, definitely the best villains on the show (put tombstone on that list as well).

good to see sandman has morality and is only thinking about the cash, great ep, lots and lots of character development.

lots of potential momentum here, all great stuff...

i'm intrigued too know what part of the new characters have to play in the comic mythos?


edit:


as for the sandman water thing, personally i thought he was going to get slowed down by oil. I don't mind that water had no real effect on him but it probably should have.

as for the spider sense, except for tas, it has always been inconsistent so it's something we shouldn't even be trying to ration out, the writers use it as and when they see fit, all logic goes out of the window with that one.

as for eddie's webshooter thing, we might also have to take that one on the chin. as for him knowing where the symbiote was there, it may still be calling out to him

speaking of eddie, did they change his voice actor, he sounded very different in this episode, his voice wasn't as raspy

 

[varsas]

as for the spider sense, except for tas, it has always been inconsistent so it's something we shouldn't even be trying to ration out, the writers use it as and when they see fit, all logic goes out of the window with that one.

as for eddie's webshooter thing, we might also have to take that one on the chin. as for him knowing where the symbiote was there, it may still be calling out to him

As a generaly question has there actually been an inconsistency in the show? I certainly don't recall any thus far.

The symbiote might have had the knowledge that Eddie absorbed but given Eddie is a really smart guy too, working in the lab at ESU, then I don't think it's too difficult to speculate that he would also be able to come up with something like Peter.

 

[Syncos]

Brock is an enemy. Spidey's spider sense alerts him to the presence of ANY enemy. Whether they're going to attack him or not.

I'm glad they're writing the spider sense the way they are. If it was portrayed the way you mention "he always knows if his enemies are around" that would be absolutely ridiculous, of course there's going to be instances of comics where it was used that way. There's been tons of writers over decades of comics. that's tons of room for missteps when it comes to writing.

The spider sense is an early warning detection system. And this series has boiled it down to it's core elements. It's not the comics where over decades they've had to push the characters limits to force it to be dramatic, thus changing what a power can do to force the story.

It doesn't make sense for the spider sense to pick up a person standing on a building. Eddie may have been scheming, but he wasn't a threat to peter. Thus there was nothing to alert peter to.

I don't want to come off like I have any malicious intent here. I'm not trying to bicker with you, for the record. I realize it might come off that way, not getting context behind the words on the screen.

 

[sauronthegreat]

I was really thrilled by this episode!
To be honest, judging by the synopsis, I wasn't expecting anything special. I was thinking it would be one slow-paced episode, like a temporary setback between 'the master planner arc', and now this new 'venom arc'; also having Sandman as a solo villain after all the Sinister Six and the magnificently done Dr Octopus. But it was nothing of that sort!
This was one of those masterfully done episodes. With great direction and complex character development for a Saturday morning cartoon.
After 'Reinforcement' I couldn't even imagine Sandman could be such a threat to Spidey. His use of his power in this episode was really revolutionary.
Loved all the moments this show delivers and delves so deeply like introduction of important and not so important characters and their developments with every passing episode.
By the end of this episode, especially the last line Brock becomes a serious, spooky and a creepy villain. I just loved the editing and direction of this episode, with the camera thing... the normal life of Peter Parker and his friends, in contrast with the epic battle our hero has with the Sandman... and how it all got concluded with the real threat that is coming to our hero's personal life and his secret heroic life.

 

[sauronthegreat]

ooops (double post)

 

[November Rain]

As a generaly question has there actually been an inconsistency in the show? I certainly don't recall any thus far.

The symbiote might have had the knowledge that Eddie absorbed but given Eddie is a really smart guy too, working in the lab at ESU, then I don't think it's too difficult to speculate that he would also be able to come up with something like Peter.

it didn't go off when tombstone beat the crap outta him.

i'm sure there are others, i don't recall it going crazy when the sinister six started attacking him on multiple occassions.

the webshooter thing is off. if it was that simple to do, someone would have already copied the design. the character has been around for about 6 months

 

[November Rain]

I'm glad they're writing the spider sense the way they are. If it was portrayed the way you mention "he always knows if his enemies are around" that would be absolutely ridiculous, of course there's going to be instances of comics where it was used that way. There's been tons of writers over decades of comics. that's tons of room for missteps when it comes to writing.

The spider sense is an early warning detection system. And this series has boiled it down to it's core elements. It's not the comics where over decades they've had to push the characters limits to force it to be dramatic, thus changing what a power can do to force the story.

It doesn't make sense for the spider sense to pick up a person standing on a building. Eddie may have been scheming, but he wasn't a threat to peter. Thus there was nothing to alert peter to.

I don't want to come off like I have any malicious intent here. I'm not trying to bicker with you, for the record. I realize it might come off that way, not getting context behind the words on the screen.

his spidersense should be something he can tap into. I mean he tapped into it to dodge mysterios attacks and it should warn him more proactively if there is an potential immediate threat to him or people around him. That is of course if it hasn't been dulled by his other senses

i.e. if he hears someone cocking a gun, his sense are not going to react. or if he sees someone in trouble, he doesn't need to get warned about it. it basically kicks in when his other senses are busy doing other stuff. Other than that he should have to tap into it.

tas made a good job of keeping it a regular focus so when venom turned up and it didn't go off, you REALLY felt spiderman's vulnerability to him. Venom's threat level then goes up tenfold because you are used to it being his greatest power.

 

[varsas]

it didn't go off when tombstone beat the crap outta him.

i.e. if he hears someone cocking a gun, his sense are not going to react. or if he sees someone in trouble, he doesn't need to get warned about it. it basically kicks in when his other senses are busy doing other stuff. Other than that he should have to tap into it.

Your second post explains the inconsistency you suggested i.e. Spider-Man's other senses aren't busy so the spider-sense doesn't kick in when Tombstone attacks him in their first confrontation. Throughout the series the spider-sense has only reacted when an immediate threat is not obvious.

the webshooter thing is off. if it was that simple to do, someone would have already copied the design. the character has been around for about 6 months

I don't think it's easy but Eddie is very smart and possibly has some of the symbiote's knowledge so it's plausible; although a clearer explanation would be nice.

his spidersense should be something he can tap into. I mean he tapped into it to dodge mysterios attacks and it should warn him more proactively if there is an potential immediate threat to him or people around him. That is of course if it hasn't been dulled by his other senses

The use in that scene is consistent with it's use in the series. He puts on the blindfold and so removes his main sense when dealing with threat so the spider-sense kicks in; he also only reacts to the attacks and doesn't seek out the attackers.

As Joker has pointed out there are many other occasions and a different limit to what the spider-sense can do in the canon but as noted in Greg's answer it doesn't all make sense, forgive the pun! Consequently I agree with the choices the writers have made in trying to rationalise it.

Regarding this episode, I loved that they had Flash and Peter be best friends when very young; it also makes more sense of the events of last season where Flash helps Peter come to his senses.

 

[November Rain]

his sense is still inconsistent but again it's inconsistent in all media. trying to rationalise it is only going ot lead to headaches.

you quote tombstone but miss the multiple other sinister six opportunities. The tombstone point was his threat level should have been identified when he entered the building, spidey was unable to pick up on how powerful his adversary was.There are probably other examples but i'm not one to wade through stuff to make a point.

 

[varsas]

his sense is still inconsistent but again it's inconsistent in all media. trying to rationalise it is only going ot lead to headaches.

you quote tombstone but miss the multiple other sinister six opportunities. The tombstone point was his threat level should have been identified when he entered the building, spidey was unable to pick up on how powerful his adversary was.There are probably other examples but i'm not one to wade through stuff to make a point.

With the Sinister Six, I don't think he was ever blind sided by an attack and so the spider-sense wouldn't go off; I'd need to check it to be sure.

With Tombstone, I'm not sure why the spider-sense would activate given the parameters outlined for the series; the spider-sense isn't a general threat sensor. In terms of consistency with interpretations of it in other media it might not match up but in the context of the series it does.

 

[AIRWOLF]

I'm glad they're writing the spider sense the way they are. If it was portrayed the way you mention "he always knows if his enemies are around" that would be absolutely ridiculous, of course there's going to be instances of comics where it was used that way. There's been tons of writers over decades of comics. that's tons of room for missteps when it comes to writing.

The spider sense is an early warning detection system. And this series has boiled it down to it's core elements. It's not the comics where over decades they've had to push the characters limits to force it to be dramatic, thus changing what a power can do to force the story.

It doesn't make sense for the spider sense to pick up a person standing on a building. Eddie may have been scheming, but he wasn't a threat to peter. Thus there was nothing to alert peter to.

I don't want to come off like I have any malicious intent here. I'm not trying to bicker with you, for the record. I realize it might come off that way, not getting context behind the words on the screen.

I agree that it makes sense if you put it that way, and I think developers are right to do so, meaning using Spider-Sense for detecting immediate threats, because always picking up on dangers around him will somewhat eliminate the element of surprise or suspense.

By the way anyone else like the line:

Spidey: "With Great Powers Comes Great..."
Sandman: "Gullibility!"

, I thought that was really funny.

 

[Venom 1988]

Greg didn't need to explain why the identity of Shocker changed, in the show, so I don't see why he would need to explain the differences regarding the spider-sense.

Actually he did, couple of times. He didn't expect the "uproar" some fans had.

 

[Doctor Jones]

The choice was fine.

I like what he said, who cares about Herman what's name, Knolls? Yeah, that's memorable. What's the point of having an identity if you never know anything about them or never see their face? I'm talking from Shocker's standpoint here.

What's the use of giving him a name then? Montana suited the character much better.

 

[varsas]

Actually he did, couple of times. He didn't expect the "uproar" some fans had.

I know he did and as you said only for the benefit of some diehard fans, in general it was not neeeded; the change/difference wasn't explained away in the episode and that's how I feel about the spider-sense; it doesn't need to be explained in the context of the Spider-Man canon. I think fans should take it as it is in the series and not make it out to be a flaw when comparing it to past interpretations.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

The choice was fine.

I like what he said, who cares about Herman what's name, Knolls? Yeah, that's memorable. What's the point of having an identity if you never know anything about them or never see their face? I'm talking from Shocker's standpoint here.

What's the use of giving him a name then?

You really do have a point, not that I have anything against Herman being Shocker.

 

[Mistah K88]

About Shocker...I don't even think he was mentioned by name (Herman Shultz) in the 90's cartoon was he?

The spider sense in this series only works as something to sense an attack Pete cannot see as mentioned by others.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Not sure about the return of Venom; Eddie's colossally nonsensical characterization was the one drag on the end of the last season.

Fun episode, otherwise. I liked all the reveals about characters' dynamics and relationships.

Sally's desperation to stop Liz from dating Peter was classic.

 

[The Joker]

I don't want to come off like I have any malicious intent here. I'm not trying to bicker with you, for the record. I realize it might come off that way, not getting context behind the words on the screen.

No, you're not. Like I said to someone else, there's been zero hostility between anyone. It's been very civil

Regarding your other points, I've already addressed them in a previous post. We are just repeating ourselves. And that's a sure sign we're going in circles.

We'll just agree to disagree.

Regarding the spider-sense, it's only a flaw if you consider the complete Spider-Man canon;

I don't. This was in place from the start during Stan Lee's day. I posted a pic of an example from it on the previous page.

Writers just carried on with it. Because that is his power. Stan created it. Greg chose to simplify it down to just being an immediate danger alert. If you like that change, that's fine.

I don't like Spidey's powers being simplified.

Greg didn't need to explain why the identity of Shocker changed, in the show, so I don't see why he would need to explain the differences regarding the spider-sense.

That's their flaw. Most good writers or directors will explain a change to a character. For example, Nolan explained in TDK why Joker wore make up.

Joker thug: "He wears make up to scare people, like war paint".

Although in your Shocker example, how important is a character like Herman Schultz? What essential ingredient was he to the Shocker character? Was there something about the character that only Herman Schultz could do? No. Shocker's a C-list petty thug villain. Why do you think nobody cares that Bendis treats him like a joke in USM?

The spidey sense has been used in a variety of different dangerous situations that have saved Spidey thru the years. If you change it, and limit it to what it can do, then you limit what it can do in many exciting dangerous situations. Especially with villains like Chameleon or Mysterio.

Now don't get me wrong, like I said this is not a huge flaw. Just a disappointing one. Like when Ock needed a power battery to make his tentacles work. But they seemed to have rectified that.

 

[Web-Head408]

That guy who Raxton was talking too looked like he was from the comics. Not sure who.

Seymour O' Reilly. Just look back a couple of pages for more on him.

speaking of eddie, did they change his voice actor, he sounded very different in this episode, his voice wasn't as raspy

Nah, it's still Ben Disken.

 

[SpaceWay2009]

I enjoyed this episode a lot! Sandman is just a cool villain. I like how we get see his human and good side for a change.

Harry is back and into Gwen. Eddie is back and he wants to continue his harassment with Peter.

Mark Allan looks cool!

Great action, especially the part where Spider-Man fights the big Sandman, which is similar to "Spider-Man 3." 10/10!

 

[varsas]

I don't. This was in place from the start during Stan Lee's day. I posted a pic of an example from it on the previous page.

Writers just carried on with it. Because that is his power. Stan created it. Greg chose to simplify it down to just being an immediate danger alert. If you like that change, that's fine.

I don't like Spidey's powers being simplified.



That's their flaw. Most good writers or directors will explain a change to a character. For example, Nolan explained in TDK why Joker wore make up.

Joker thug: "He wears make up to scare people, like war paint".

Although in your Shocker example, how important is a character like Herman Schultz? What essential ingredient was he to the Shocker character? Was there something about the character that only Herman Schultz could do? No. Shocker's a C-list petty thug villain. Why do you think nobody cares that Bendis treats him like a joke in USM?

The spidey sense has been used in a variety of different dangerous situations that have saved Spidey thru the years. If you change it, and limit it to what it can do, then you limit what it can do in many exciting dangerous situations. Especially with villains like Chameleon or Mysterio.

Now don't get me wrong, like I said this is not a huge flaw. Just a disappointing one. Like when Ock needed a power battery to make his tentacles work. But they seemed to have rectified that.

I can understand that in the context of the spidey canon it is a flaw, as with the battery, but as I don't think we should be expecting a direct translation I'm not really sure that flaw is the right word especially since there is logic in the decisions/changes.

I think this limited version of the spider-sense more directly translates to what you might perceive spider's to have; I guess it matches more of what I always understood the spider-sense to be so I'm quite happy with the interpretation. I became a Spidey fan during the 90s and I don't really remember Spidey ever using it as "an all-purpose evil sensor" as Greg put it.

 

[The Joker]

I can understand that in the context of the spidey canon it is a flaw, as with the battery, but as I don't think we should be expecting a direct translation I'm not really sure that flaw is the right word especially since there is logic in the decisions/changes.

Oh I never expect a direct translation with everything, mate. There's no such thing. I appreciate that changes have to be made. But that doesn't mean everyone will like them.

As far as changes in this show goes, I think they are perfectly acceptable for the most part. There is none of them that I would call terrible, or even really bad.

Disappointing at worst. And that says alot about the high quality of this show. I think it's the best on screen adaption of Spidey ever. Bar none. There's hardly anything I'd change.

I think this limited version of the spider-sense more directly translates to what you might perceive spider's to have; I guess it matches more of what I always understood the spider-sense to be so I'm quite happy with the interpretation. I became a Spidey fan during the 90s and I don't really remember Spidey ever using it as "an all-purpose evil sensor" as Greg put it.

Yeah, like I said, changes are always made. Some people will accept some or all of them, some wont. It's why comic book movies often produce many arguements. People are always discussing the changes made to the source material.

 

[Ratcrawler]

Yeah, Eddie sounded a little different and so did Sandman. Same guys, just, I dunno, more comfortable with their voices for the characters.

Eddie kinda reminds me of Sylar from heroes in that he just kinda goes where he pleases like he's untouchable. A tad ironic since I maintain that Ben Disken kinda looks like Peter Petrelli. I told him that to his face once lol.

I think Eddie knows more about how the sPider-Sense works than Pete does. Like how he knew Pete loved Gwen the most before he did. So I don't find it too odd that he would know to appear in Pete's eyeline for a second before disappearing.

 

[Spiderine]

I agree that it makes sense if you put it that way, and I think developers are right to do so, meaning using Spider-Sense for detecting immediate threats, because always picking up on dangers around him will somewhat eliminate the element of surprise or suspense.

By the way anyone else like the line:

Spidey: "With Great Powers Comes Great..."
Sandman: "Gullibility!"

, I thought that was really funny.

Dude, that was just hilarious. I loved that scene. Sandman played it perfectly and then smacked him and rolls away like a ball. Classic scene.